I hope this isn’t difficult to understand and helps clear up some misconceptions about why Z stated 9MM Luger and not just 9MM!

That is indeed a good point and well worth noting.

My question remains essentially the same, though: How did the caller know what type of ammo the attacker used? There are…four possibilities, one of which is extremely far fetched:

1. The caller was at the crime scene. He was one of the officers or a member of the ambulance crew – or something. Very unlikely that he was a reporter, as no reporter had made it to the scene as far as I know. Whoever this person was, he had to make it to the phone booth in time to make the call (obviously). How likely is this? *

2. The caller had a police scanner or managed to pick up the emergency frequency on his radio. This presupposes, of course, that the type of ammo was mentioned in a dispatch (and we don’t know that it was).

3. The caller didn’t know for sure which ammo was used – it was just a lucky guess. This is extremely unlikely, needless to say.

4. The caller knew what ammo the killer used because the caller was the killer.

* I don’t mean likely as in "how likely is it that one of the cops/ambulance people was a hoaxer/prankster" but rather as in "how likely is it that one of the people at the crime scene could have made it to the phone booth in time without neglecting their duties, arousing suspicion, and so forth".

Finishing the point made earlier regarding Hal Snook:

Narlow and Lonergan were contacted at 20:20. They did not go to the crime scene but to the hospital. At 20:35 Narlow was informed that a call had been made from the car wash. He dispatched Hal Snook to this location.

Narlow and Lonergan arrived at the crime scene at 23:54. At this point said scene was guarded by uniformed officers, supervised by Ray Land and David Collins.

It is stated explicitly that the investigating officers looked at Bryan’s car and that they were awaiting the arrival of Sgt Butler (the photographer) and Hal Snook.

This seems to be the case:

We don’t know (at least I don’t) what Snook did prior to being contacted by Narlow at 20:35 (or slightly later). It is possible that Snook could have learned of the attack at LB, driven up to the car location and written on the car door – and then made it back to Napa in order to receive Narlow’s call and then proceed to the car wash. As far as I know, I should say, this is possible. But nothing we know indicates that this took place, of course – it is pure speculation.

What we do know is that it would have been inconvenient (to say the least) for Snook to do the following: Drive up to the crime scene after having done his job at the car wash and then, some time around midnight, write on the car door. That is well beyond believable, not to say impossible. The car had already been examined by multiple people by then (including Narlow himself).

I hope this isn’t difficult to understand and helps clear up some misconceptions about why Z stated 9MM Luger and not just 9MM!

That is indeed a good point and well worth noting.

My question remains essentially the same, though: How did the caller know what type of ammo the attacker used? There are…four possibilities, one of which is extremely far fetched:

1. The caller was at the crime scene. He was one of the officers or a member of the ambulance crew – or something. Very unlikely that he was a reporter, as no reporter had made it to the scene as far as I know. Whoever this person was, he had to make it to the phone booth in time to make the call (obviously). How likely is this? *

2. The caller had a police scanner or managed to pick up the emergency frequency on his radio. This presupposes, of course, that the type of ammo was mentioned in a dispatch (and we don’t know that it was).

3. The caller didn’t know for sure which ammo was used – it was just a lucky guess. This is extremely unlikely, needless to say.

4. The caller knew what ammo the killer used because the caller was the killer.

* I don’t mean likely as in "how likely is it that one of the cops/ambulance people was a hoaxer/prankster" but rather as in "how likely is it that one of the people at the crime scene could have made it to the phone booth in time without neglecting their duties, arousing suspicion, and so forth".

My question is how would anyone know what type of ammo was used at the crime scene.(except the killer) Not everyone– that first arrived at the crime scene would even know how to descibe the bullets used.Not everyone was a professional or had this expertise to do so. Sometimes this is only identified in the crime lab.

The spent casings are relatively easy to identify.

Hoffman even admitted to picking some of them up.

The spent casings are relatively easy to identify.

Hoffman even admitted to picking some of them up.

Kind of odd that Richard Hoffman picked up casings, I mean two young kids in a state of dying, and he pick up casings

I’v always found Richard Hoffman (RH as in the desk poem, hmmm) strange.

Officer Richard Hoffman

Here is an interesting post, over at zodiackiller.com, about Richard Hoffman, by poster "zodiacsolver":

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7 … M2XpmSG-94

The spent casings are relatively easy to identify.

Indeed – and there were plenty of them. So that part I have no problem with.

I have to read the report again (and recheck some other sources too), so for the time being I’m just suggesting the following:

It would be have been difficult for any of the ROs and/or any of the medical staff who arrived at the scene to subsequently "sneak off" in order to make that phone call.

The time frame alone looks bad. The call was made very shortly after DF and MM arrived at the hospital – that’s one thing. Another thing is the gap between the attack and the arrival of the police. Zodiac had ample time (too much time, in fact!) to get to the phone booth – the same is not true for anyone who arrived at the crime scene after the attack had been reported.

Yet another point which can be made is that any officer/medical person would have had a specific task to perform in the aftermath of that incident – would it have been possible at all to simply disappear to make a phone call from a booth without anyone taking notice?

The spent casings are relatively easy to identify.

Hoffman even admitted to picking some of them up.

Kind of odd that Richard Hoffman picked up casings, I mean two young kids in a state of dying, and he pick up casings

I’v always found Richard Hoffman (RH as in the desk poem, hmmm) strange.

Officer Richard Hoffman

Here is an interesting post, over at zodiackiller.com, about Richard Hoffman, by poster "zodiacsolver":

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7 … M2XpmSG-94

TF—check out this thread I created a looong time ago at Tom’s. Many were NOT fond of my accusations, but it is what it is.

A couple of things that bothered me about Hoffman was that he outlined Mike’s body in crayon—his ALIVE body. And he reported Darlene was dead at the scene–and I quote "very much dead". She was not. He remained at the scene alone while he sent his superior away…and picked up casings. Probably just lousy police work, but it used to bother the hell out of me! He and Howard "Buzz" Gordon (who dated Darlene and was also a VPD) cop got into a nasty fight later on…lots a’foot at the VPD back then…which I think is why some still question (a) VPD cops involvement.

READ THIS – First on scene: http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3 … M20IdLF-So

The spent casings are relatively easy to identify.

Hoffman even admitted to picking some of them up.

Kind of odd that Richard Hoffman picked up casings, I mean two young kids in a state of dying, and he pick up casings

I’v always found Richard Hoffman (RH as in the desk poem, hmmm) strange.

Officer Richard Hoffman

Here is an interesting post, over at zodiackiller.com, about Richard Hoffman, by poster "zodiacsolver":

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7 … M2XpmSG-94

TF—check out this thread I created a looong time ago at Tom’s. Many were NOT fond of my accusations, but it is what it is.

A couple of things that bothered me about Hoffman was that he outlined Mike’s body in crayon—his ALIVE body. And he reported Darlene was dead at the scene–and I quote "very much dead". She was not. He remained at the scene alone while he sent his superior away…and picked up casings. Probably just lousy police work, but it used to bother the hell out of me! He and Howard "Buzz" Gordon (who dated Darlene and was also a VPD) cop got into a nasty fight later on…lots a’foot at the VPD back then…which I think is why some still question (a) VPD cops involvement.

READ THIS – First on scene: http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3 … M20IdLF-So

Thanks for the link/research info of yours, it’s GREAT! and I agree with everything you said in that Zodiackiller.com thread, as well as in the above post.
I read all 8 pages, very interesting indeed, and SOOOOO odd how several posters over there are totaly hostile towards your (and a couple of others) intelligent findings, questions and theories, really odd if you ask me.

I think Richard Hoffman & Howard "Buzz" Gordon deserve a thread of their own.

Not that I really believe this that I’m going to say (I still have my own great suspect) but I’ll say it anyway, just in case:) :
Wonder if those two, RH & HBG had some shady bizz going on together that Darlene knew about, and DF was going to spill the beans, and that RH & HBG was a Z team, RH the shooter and HBG the phone caller ?
Problem with this theory is; how to explain the CJB, LHR, LB and Paul Stine murders being Zodiac as well? does not work at all

Haox theory

I cannot resist.

Government hoax.

Moon landing—maybe/maybe not

Roswell—maybe/maybe not

JFK—maybe/maybe not

Zodiac—maybe/maybe not

Zodiac/government. Northern Ca officials stepped on somebodies toes and the government wanted to cause some havoc/and payback.

How? With LB and the writing on the car and Stines shirt? Easily. Moles already in place in the counties LE.

Did government actually do the killings.No.They just prevented the confessors from having adding any true value to the crimes and also, prevented any true suspects from being charged with the crimes. Through deception.

Living in the US I would like to think our government is (Bad Ass Enough) to pull anything off.Wrong or right. Even if I do not agee with the tactics.

Or

Zodiac/government—recruiting people for intelligence.

I know these ideas have already been suggested so don’t crucify me–just ignore me.

Problem with this theory is; how to explain the CJB, LHR, LB and Paul Stine murders being Zodiac as well? does not work at all

If we’re staying in hoax mode (and for the record, I repeat that I created this thread to, if possible, use the quite popular hoax angle as a means to throw further light on certain aspects and details, not because I myself am a proponent or supporter of any sort of hoax theory) this is indeed a problem, yes.

The idea that something was rotten in the VPD isn’t outlandish as such. There seems to have been plenty going on there. But BRS isn’t an isolated incident, is it? Even within the hoax context it has to be regarded as part of a series.

As for Hoffman and Gordon, one obvious point could be made: If either of them was the caller, you’d assume Nancy Slover would have recognized the voice. She knew both of them, after all.

One may question Slover in some respects (Gaikowski springs to mind), but these were men she actually knew – whose voices she had heard, presumably, many times.

Thanks for the link/research info of yours, it’s GREAT! and I agree with everything you said in that Zodiackiller.com thread, as well as in the above post.
I read all 8 pages, very interesting indeed, and SOOOOO odd how several posters over there are totaly hostile towards your (and a couple of others) intelligent findings, questions and theories, really odd if you ask me.

I think Richard Hoffman & Howard "Buzz" Gordon deserve a thread of their own.

Not that I really believe this that I’m going to say (I still have my own great suspect) but I’ll say it anyway, just in case:) :
Wonder if those two, RH & HBG had some shady bizz going on together that Darlene knew about, and DF was going to spill the beans, and that RH & HBG was a Z team, RH the shooter and HBG the phone caller ?
Problem with this theory is; how to explain the CJB, LHR, LB and Paul Stine murders being Zodiac as well? does not work at all

Thanks TF. I think there is like 15 pages…just so you know.

I thought we had a Buzz Gordon thread. I remember posting pictures of him. I will keep looking and start a thread if not.

I think what Norse said makes sense in regards to a hoax. IF one was a specific target, the rest could be a hoax to cover up the one person who was targeted. In a sense…it wasn’t Buzz because he had no motive to kill the others, etc. HAD to be some crazy guy out there!

It has been suggested many times that Darlene F was the only real target – and that everything else was just a smokescreen.

To me this makes very little sense. It’s completely disproportional. If someone actually created the Z persona, killed multiple people and wrote numerous letters over a period of several years…as a smoke screen…well, then that someone was even crazier than the canonical Zodiac. Plus, it wasn’t really a hoax either – as it involved multiple additional murders, including two which took place six months before BRS. It’s far too elaborate for my money.

Then, of course, there’s the possibility that whoever was responsible for killing Darlene didn’t actually kill anyone else – he or they just wrote the letters, made the phone calls…got hold of a piece of Stine’s shirt…and, yeah, back to square one really. The basic problems of any hoax theory apply here as well. It doesn’t really add anything to the mix which isn’t already there – apart from a motive, that is. But would a more or less rational killer find it necessary to create a smokescreen for himself on THAT scale? Was it really necessary to fabricate all those links? Wouldn’t ONE link be sufficient?

It has been suggested many times that Darlene F was the only real target – and that everything else was just a smokescreen.

To me this makes very little sense. It’s completely disproportional. If someone actually created the Z persona, killed multiple people and wrote numerous letters over a period of several years…as a smoke screen…well, then that someone was even crazier than the canonical Zodiac. Plus, it wasn’t really a hoax either – as it involved multiple additional murders, including two which took place six months before BRS. It’s far too elaborate for my money.

Then, of course, there’s the possibility that whoever was responsible for killing Darlene didn’t actually kill anyone else – he or they just wrote the letters, made the phone calls…got hold of a piece of Stine’s shirt…and, yeah, back to square one really. The basic problems of any hoax theory apply here as well. It doesn’t really add anything to the mix which isn’t already there – apart from a motive, that is. But would a more or less rational killer find it necessary to create a smokescreen for himself on THAT scale? Was it really necessary to fabricate all those links? Wouldn’t ONE link be sufficient?

If it was anybody but Darlene! I just can’t get past the fact that she has so much [rumored] excess baggage in her life. Shady characters and cops don’t mix well. You burn the candle at both ends and well…

Yes…very elaborate to be a hoax, BUT…

If LHR was not Zodiac, "Zodiac" had time after LHR to come up with some sort of scheme….and throw David & Betty Lou into the mix.

People can do sick things when they are looking out for themselves…including killing innocent people.

I’ve said all along, not matter what, people were killed and whoever killed is not a hoaxer and that is who needs to be punished.