According to several sources including the relatively recent Søren Korsgaard book, AMERICA’S JACK THE RIPPER, SFPD generally and the late Dave Toschi specifically believed the latents left in blood on the driver’s side are Zodiac prints. A match or finding the prints mutually inclusive would at the very least force O’Hare to explain how his prints got there. But O’Hare would then have a much bigger problem than just having to explain how his prints got there, since O’Hare has been a Zodiac suspect online since the Internet went up, and the Washington Monthly published his article denying involvement in the Zodiac crimes in its May/June 2009 edition. So if you’re saying that O’Hare could then say, “Well okay I rode in Stine’s cab that night but I didn’t kill him,” I’m calling BS on that.

O’Hare doesn’t have to explain anything. He doesn’t have to testify. The state has to prove he left the prints in commission of a crime. SFPD can’t tell you when those prints were left. It’s the state’s burden to establish that. If one of the bloody fingerprints were O’Hare’s, then you might have something. The fingerprints would require an expert to authenticate. It would not be an open and shut matter. O’Hare, if charged, would have his own experts to challenge the state.

The fact that O’Hare has been accused of being the Zodiac since 1981 (1987 in the public sphere) is largely irrelevant. It’s all based upon Gareth Penn’s accusations, which I am apparently not smart enough to understand. Glad he’s a Mensa guy that can understand all those codes. They are too convoluted for a jury or law enforcement to follow, which is probably why O’Hare is walking free.

As to the cost of a lawsuit, I estimate in excess of $100k based upon what I know lawsuits through trial generally cost. Yes, O’Hare could seek an injunction, but why? He would incur lots of fees to stop persons from making claims that almost no one believes. O’Hare is still a professor at U.C. Berkley. How was he really damaged by the accusations? If you assume that he left Harvard because of the accusation, maybe you have an argument. I don’t know why he left Harvard. As to presumed damages, they would not be greater than his likely attorney’s fees and costs.

Regarding discovery, discovery is not unlimited in civil cases. Yes, O’Hare would be the subject of discovery, but there are many ways to limit the scope of discovery in civil practice. I am not sure what O’Hare would fear from discovery. If you’re insinuating that he would have to provide fingerprints, then that might be true. However, I can get O’Hare’s fingerprints today without suing him. All I have to do is get one of his students to go his office hours and hand him a paper to read. Or, I could buy him a drink and confiscate the glass afterward. It’s not that hard. O’Hare touches many, many things every day and discards them. A PI could follow him around and get them. That whole argument is dumb because no one could force SFPD to test O’Hare prints. If you walked into SFPD with O’Hare’s prints, they are not going to test them against the Stine latents unless SFPD opens an investigation against O’Hare. You would need actual evidence of his guilt to convince them to do that.

Regarding the doctored photo in the article, let assume it’s doctored. I am not sure of its significance. It corresponds with the longitude of the Riverside crime scene? How or why should O’Hare know that? You have to assume he’s the killer and that he actually checked that out. Let’s assume he is the killer, why would you assume that he knows the longitude of the Riverside crime scene? You have to buy either Penn’s or Ray Grant’s theory of some conceptual art masterpiece to even assume that. Why should I?

"Why would an otherwise upstanding citizen with nothing to hide deliberately request a vanity plate that reads 1360 SP?"

O’Hare is somehow a malefactor because he has a personalized plate? I don’t know what 1360 SP is supposed to mean, but it could entirely mean something different to O’Hare than what Penn claims it means.

Do you have any evidence that O’Hare is Zodiac that didn’t come from Gareth Penn? A witness? Any hard evidence? Handwriting match to the letters? Something in the letters that does not need to be converted to numbers or morse code that implicates O’Hare? Can you tie him to a victim? A crime scene? Can you prove that O’Hare murdered Joan Webster? Does O’Hare know anything about cryptography? Is he capable of drafting the Bus Bomb diagram? Was O’Hare in SF during all of the murders (I think he claims he was not)?

I do agree that there will likely never be a legal resolution to the Zodiac case, without a confession. That doesn’t seem very likely at this point.

“O’Hare doesn’t have to explain anything. He doesn’t have to testify. The state has to prove he left the prints in commission of a crime.”

Oh really? I was under the impression an accused person is forced to testify in this country. Spare me the legal lectures, please.

“SFPD can’t tell you when those prints were left.”

Armond Pelissetti says he saw them as he walked toward the car and they had blood in them. So they were left after Stine was shot (9:50pm) and by the time Pelissetti got there (circa 10pm). Okay?

“If one of the bloody fingerprints were O’Hare’s, then you might have something.”

That was the whole basis for the argument.

“The fingerprints would require an expert to authenticate. It would not be an open and shut matter. O’Hare, if charged, would have his own experts to challenge the state.”

Thank God you’re telling me all this. I’d never have guessed. Oh brave new world!

“The fact that O’Hare has been accused of being the Zodiac since 1981 (1987 in the public sphere) is largely irrelevant. It’s all based upon Gareth Penn’s accusations, which I am apparently not smart enough to understand.”

One thing that does happen in court is that specific points are made, not a lot of vague general statements such as those two sentences. What aren’t you smart enough to understand? I‘ll try to explain it to you.

“Glad he’s a Mensa guy that can understand all those codes. They are too convoluted for a jury or law enforcement to follow, which is probably why O’Hare is walking free.”

I don’t understand finance, but financial cases are adjudicated every day of the week.

“As to the cost of a lawsuit, I estimate in excess of $100k based upon what I know lawsuits through trial generally cost.”

I specifically said O’Hare wouldn’t necessarily have to sue. I’m sure it didn’t cost Kjell Qvale $100k to have Rodelli’s site taken down, and if it did, I’m getting into the Internet server business.

“Yes, O’Hare could seek an injunction, but why? He would incur lots of fees to stop persons from making claims that almost no one believes.”

And yet, by his own admission, most people would seek legal action, just on principle.

“O’Hare is still a professor at U.C. Berkley. How was he really damaged by the accusations? If you assume that he left Harvard because of the accusation, maybe you have an argument. I don’t know why he left Harvard.”

The accusations were made in November 1990. O’Hare sold his house in Brookline in June 1991, and bought a new house in Berkeley Heights in July 1991. It is reasonable to assume that Harvard didn’t renew his contract, so he left against his will. If Harvard did that because of the mere suggestion that he might be a notorious serial killer, then he suffered significant damage by it. The move itself would have been expensive monetarily and in terms of his time and attention, plus his wife worked for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, so that job had to be abandoned. His artist mother had to leave Greater Boston and her gallery contacts there. His two daughters had to leave their schools and day care. That’s a lot of damage.

“As to presumed damages, they would not be greater than his likely attorney’s fees and costs.”

I think I just covered that.

“I am not sure what O’Hare would fear from discovery.”

Then that’s a reason to fear discovery, isn’t it?

“If you’re insinuating that he would have to provide fingerprints, then that might be true. However, I can get O’Hare’s fingerprints today without suing him. All I have to do is get one of his students to go his office hours and hand him a paper to read. Or, I could buy him a drink and confiscate the glass afterward. It’s not that hard. O’Hare touches many, many things every day and discards them. A PI could follow him around and get them.”

But you couldn’t act on them in court unless they were collected by a police agency, because the chain of evidence would have to be maintained.

“That whole argument is dumb because no one could force SFPD to test O’Hare prints. If you walked into SFPD with O’Hare’s prints, they are not going to test them against the Stine latents unless SFPD opens an investigation against O’Hare. You would need actual evidence of his guilt to convince them to do that.”

The FBI lab would do the comparison, and they already have the Stine latents. What I’m not sure about is if the FBI lab could be compelled to do the comparison by a judge in a civil suit. I’m not a lawyer, so maybe your expertise can answer that one.

“Regarding the doctored photo in the article, let assume it’s doctored. I am not sure of its significance. It corresponds with the longitude of the Riverside crime scene? How or why should O’Hare know that? You have to assume he’s the killer and that he actually checked that out. Let’s assume he is the killer, why would you assume that he knows the longitude of the Riverside crime scene? You have to buy either Penn’s or Ray Grant’s theory of some conceptual art masterpiece to even assume that. Why should I?”

Again, the photo is doctored. Forget the interpretation of the image itself and answer the question: Why would O’Hare doctor that photo?

“O’Hare is somehow a malefactor because he has a personalized plate? I don’t know what 1360 SP is supposed to mean, but it could entirely mean something different to O’Hare than what Penn claims it means.”

Bundy is somehow a malefactor because he removed his front passenger seat? Again, forget the specific interpretation and explain why someone with no patience for puzzle games requests a vanity plate that reads 1360 SP.

“Do you have any evidence that O’Hare is Zodiac that didn’t come from Gareth Penn?”

Yes. He was accused of being the Zodiac in a public place and he then fled that place rather than defend himself. He has not only failed to sue his accuser, he has taken care that his accuser can’t sue him, for example by not naming him or the November 1990 event in his Washington Monthly article.

“I do agree that there will likely never be a legal resolution to the Zodiac case, without a confession. That doesn’t seem very likely at this point.”

The most likely resolution is either a deathbed confession or a post-mortem discovery. The legal hurdles are just too high, unless the accused cooperates in his own prosecution.

Horan is a fraud and his theory is absurd.

Horan is a fraud and his theory is absurd.

You were more succinct, but no less correct.

Horan is an effing A-hole and Tom Voigt is GREAT!

Cold Facts said:

"“Do you have any evidence that O’Hare is Zodiac that didn’t come from Gareth Penn?”

Yes. He was accused of being the Zodiac in a public place and he then fled that place rather than defend himself. He has not only failed to sue his accuser, he has taken care that his accuser can’t sue him, for example by not naming him or the November 1990 event in his Washington Monthly article."

That’s evidence he’s a chickenshit…not exactly evidence he’s Zodiac.

Cold Facts:

“Yes. He was accused of being the Zodiac in a public place and he then fled that place rather than defend himself. He has not only failed to sue his accuser, he has taken care that his accuser can’t sue him, for example by not naming him or the November 1990 event in his Washington Monthly article.”

ConcernedCitizen:


“That’s evidence he’s a chickenshit…not exactly evidence he’s Zodiac.”

I don’t get it. If he’s not the Zodiac, what does he have to be chickenshit about?

If I were accused of being the Zodiac Killer, my immediate response would be, “Here, take my fingerprints and compare them to the latents left in Presidio Heights.”

If I had been accused of being GSK, I would have said, “You have GSK’s DNA, don’t you? Here, take my DNA and compare it to the GSK profile.”

It wouldn’t matter how chickenshit I was generally, because I’d know that in this particular case, the fingerprints and DNA would exonerate me.

What I assume happened at Harvard is that the mailing of books accusing O’Hare of being the Zodiac Killer arrived in the mailboxes of the other 90 faculty members, and then the Harvard administration took Michael O’Hare aside and said, “Look, you have to do something about this accusation. Either sue Ray Grant, or get a court order preventing any further mailings on his part, or ask the FBI to take your fingerprints so that a comparison can be made with the Zodiac latents, and you can then announce that the print comparison clears you.” And apparently O’Hare refused to do any of those things, and Harvard then chose not to renew his contract.

It is, of course, possible that O’Hare said something along the lines of, “I refuse to sue or get a court order or submit my fingerprints because the accusation is an insult to my character, and the people here at Harvard should not be taking it seriously. So if they are taking it seriously, I’m not going to dignify the accusation by responding to it. If that means I have to go look for another job somewhere, so be it.”

But if that was his response, it wouldn’t exactly be chickenshit, would it?

Also, if that was his response, wouldn’t he have mentioned it in the Washington Monthly article? If you’ve taken a stand on principle, isn’t it your duty to advertise it?

In any case, as Dr. Johnson said, “No man has the right to be taken at his word, when proof of what he says may be easily produced.”

Cold Facts said:

"“Do you have any evidence that O’Hare is Zodiac that didn’t come from Gareth Penn?”

Yes. He was accused of being the Zodiac in a public place and he then fled that place rather than defend himself. He has not only failed to sue his accuser, he has taken care that his accuser can’t sue him, for example by not naming him or the November 1990 event in his Washington Monthly article."

That’s evidence he’s a chickenshit…not exactly evidence he’s Zodiac.

But you’re ignoring what O’Hare said in his article. He consulted an attorney who told him that litigation would cost far more than it’s worth. That’s EXACTLY what I would have told him. Gareth Penn does not appear to have sufficient funds to warrant a defamation trial. Neither does Ray Grant. It’s one thing for Dominion to sue Sidney Powell for $1.3 billion (which she doesn’t have and it will never collect). However, O’Hare likely had no damages beyond nominal damages. And even statutory or "presumed" damages would not amount to a fraction of what he would spend to go to trial. Now, if O’Hare were Kjell Qvale, we have a different story. O’Hare wasn’t a wealthy man. Qvale could afford to drop money on a lawsuit. O’Hare likely could not.

If I were accused of being the Zodiac Killer, my immediate response would be, “Here, take my fingerprints and compare them to the latents left in Presidio Heights.”

If I had been accused of being GSK, I would have said, “You have GSK’s DNA, don’t you? Here, take my DNA and compare it to the GSK profile.”

It wouldn’t matter how chickenshit I was generally, because I’d know that in this particular case, the fingerprints and DNA would exonerate me.

First of all, you could not force SFPD, NSO, RPD or the FBI to compare your prints against PH, Riverside, or Napa latents. Law enforcement does not jump when you snap your fingers. If you’re not a suspect, they won’t talk to you. You wouldn’t be a suspect because Gareth Penn or some other amateur sleuth accuses you. The other concern is that by acknowledging the allegations, you give them oxygen, which is why I would never advise anyone to sue under those circumstances. Penn wasn’t anyone of import. Why should O’Hare care what a librarian has to say? And Ray Grant was merely parroting the allegations of Penn and adding his own theories.

If O’Hare sued either of them, he would also open up his life to discovery, which is not an pleasant experience. You might say, "what does he have to hide?" Maybe nothing nefarious, but there could be embarrassing things in his life that he doesn’t want made public. But, on top of that, have you ever responded to discovery? It’s not fun. It would take time away from his job and his family for the prospects of a miniscule judgment that wouldn’t even cover his attorney’s fees. If he wins, what does he prove? The trial would give more publicity to the allegations than they would ever get without the trial. Even if he wins, there would still likely be people who thought he could be the Zodiac.

I don’t even think O’Hare can get SFPD or any other agency to compare his prints to the Zodiac prints on file. I could be wrong about that. But, my guess is that if he offered his prints, they would likely conclude that he was not the killer. If you brought his prints to the LE agency, they would probably not bother to run the prints without some evidence that O’Hare could be the killer. So, how would your proposed solution of offering prints or DNA resolve the matter?

“But you’re ignoring what O’Hare said in his article. He consulted an attorney who told him that litigation would cost far more than it’s worth. That’s EXACTLY what I would have told him.”

First, O’Hare can be demonstrated to have lied, or giving him every benefit of the doubt, to have fudged the truth significantly at any number of points, so the conversation O’Hare says he had with his lawyer didn’t necessarily take place. You read the article, so let me ask you: has O’Hare read Times 17 or not? At times he appears to have read it from cover to cover; at other times he claims not to have cracked it open. If someone wrote a book about your being the Zodiac Killer, however self-published it was, do you think you’d do more than just glance at the binding? I’m sure public policy professors are busy men with limited time for leisure reading, but give me a break.

Just to cite another example off the top of my head, O’Hare suggests he wasn’t even in California during the Zodiac period, which is at odds with what’s on his own resume, which says he was working at Arthur D. Little on Stevenson Street. Not that he’d have to be a resident of California to have committed the crimes. At times he knows absolutely nothing about the Zodiac Killer case; at other times he’s familiar enough with it that he can link to Zodiac articles on the Internet.

I’m not questioning your credentials, ethics, or judgment here, but I suspect there are lawyers out there who would suggest to O’Hare that he go ahead and if not sue, take some lesser legal action like sending a cease-and-desist letter.

“Gareth Penn does not appear to have sufficient funds to warrant a defamation trial. Neither does Ray Grant. It’s one thing for Dominion to sue Sidney Powell for $1.3 billion (which she doesn’t have and it will never collect).”

You can stop there, because you made my point: Dominion isn’t suing for money. And if O’Hare sued to clear his name, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow wouldn’t be his objective, and I don’t buy that it would have to cost him a pot of gold to get there.

“However, O’Hare likely had no damages beyond nominal damages. And even statutory or "presumed" damages would not amount to a fraction of what he would spend to go to trial.”

And remember, there are no fees unless we get money for you! If lawyers who advertise on TV can make a living taking cases on spec, I’m sure O’Hare could sue without bankrupting himself. They can’t all be million dollar settlements. If what you’re saying were true, there wouldn’t be many divorce lawyers or bankruptcy lawyers, because most of us don’t live in Presidio Heights.

“Now, if O’Hare were Kjell Qvale, we have a different story. O’Hare wasn’t a wealthy man. Qvale could afford to drop money on a lawsuit. O’Hare likely could not.”

And yet, I doubt that Qvale had to drop significant money to get Rodelli’s website off the Internet. He probably just had to complain to his server. In the meantime, unless O’Hare leaving Harvard when he did was just a coincidence, he had to relocate, his wife had to quit her job at the state, and so forth. So those expenses aren’t damages?

“First of all, you could not force SFPD, NSO, RPD or the FBI to compare your prints against PH, Riverside, or Napa latents. Law enforcement does not jump when you snap your fingers. If you’re not a suspect, they won’t talk to you. You wouldn’t be a suspect because Gareth Penn or some other amateur sleuth accuses you.”

I think the FBI would have jumped at the opportunity to take O’Hare’s prints and clear him in 1981, if only to prove pesky Penn wrong. That’s the impression I get from both the Washington Monthly article and Times 17.

“The other concern is that by acknowledging the allegations, you give them oxygen, which is why I would never advise anyone to sue under those circumstances. Penn wasn’t anyone of import. Why should O’Hare care what a librarian has to say? And Ray Grant was merely parroting the allegations of Penn and adding his own theories.”

But if you’re innocent, you can cut off the supply of oxygen immediately, simply by submitting your fingerprints and asking your friendly FBI agents to have their lab (which already has the PH latents, so no need to trouble all those initialed agencies) do a comparison. It can be done by computer now; in fact, AFIS includes the PH prints in its database so that incoming prints are automatically compared with them. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.



“If O’Hare sued either of them, he would also open up his life to discovery, which is not an pleasant experience. You might say, "what does he have to hide?" Maybe nothing nefarious, but there could be embarrassing things in his life that he doesn’t want made public.”

I could have sworn you said earlier that discovery in civil cases isn’t unlimited. Let me pretend I’m Tom Cruise: I can have the court reporter read back to you—

“But, on top of that, have you ever responded to discovery? It’s not fun. It would take time away from his job and his family for the prospects of a miniscule judgment that wouldn’t even cover his attorney’s fees. If he wins, what does he prove? The trial would give more publicity to the allegations than they would ever get without the trial. Even if he wins, there would still likely be people who thought he could be the Zodiac.”

Uh, I’d rather be deposed on a matter where I know I’m innocent of potential charges, than not allow myself to be deposed and have my life turned upside-down by an abrupt coast-to-coast career move. But that’s just me. 


“I don’t even think O’Hare can get SFPD or any other agency to compare his prints to the Zodiac prints on file. I could be wrong about that.”

You are wrong about that, since SFPD has shown itself to be a highly political agency and I’m sure O’Hare has friends in the city’s administrative network. But again, he wouldn’t need SFPD to do anything, since the FBI lab already has the latents, and I’m sure they’d also be happy to oblige a professor at the Goldman School to clear his name.

“But, my guess is that if he offered his prints, they would likely conclude that he was not the killer. If you brought his prints to the LE agency, they would probably not bother to run the prints without some evidence that O’Hare could be the killer. So, how would your proposed solution of offering prints or DNA resolve the matter?”

If I’m O’Hare, I go to SFPD headquarters and do a brief power point presentation demonstrating that I’m listed on numerous Zodiac Killer websites, including this one, as at least a nominal suspect, and I ask them if they’d run my prints as a personal favor just to clear my name.

SFPD would do it. The San Francisco FBI office would do it. The FBI in Washington would do it. But again, he had the opportunity to have all this done back in early 1981 when the FBI came to him, as reported in both the Washington Monthly article and Times 17.

And he didn’t do it.

And remember, there are no fees unless we get money for you! If lawyers who advertise on TV can make a living taking cases on spec, I’m sure O’Hare could sue without bankrupting himself. They can’t all be million dollar settlements. If what you’re saying were true, there wouldn’t be many divorce lawyers or bankruptcy lawyers, because most of us don’t live in Presidio Heights.

I think the FBI would have jumped at the opportunity to take O’Hare’s prints and clear him in 1981, if only to prove pesky Penn wrong. That’s the impression I get from both the Washington Monthly article and Times 17.

I could have sworn you said earlier that discovery in civil cases isn’t unlimited. Let me pretend I’m Tom Cruise: I can have the court reporter read back to you—

You are wrong about that, since SFPD has shown itself to be a highly political agency and I’m sure O’Hare has friends in the city’s administrative network. But again, he wouldn’t need SFPD to do anything, since the FBI lab already has the latents, and I’m sure they’d also be happy to oblige a professor at the Goldman School to clear his name.

SFPD would do it. The San Francisco FBI office would do it. The FBI in Washington would do it. But again, he had the opportunity to have all this done back in early 1981 when the FBI came to him, as reported in both the Washington Monthly article and Times 17.

These statements evidence some of the most striking ignorance of the legal profession that I have ever seen. First, lawyers take fees on contingency, but only cases that have a high probability of recovery (usually personal injury cases). No attorney that I know would take a defamation case on contingency.

Yes, discovery is not unlimited. But again, you also demonstrate that you know NOTHING about civil litigation. If defense counsel seeks discovery from Plaintiff O’Hare that O’Hare thinks is irrelevant, O’Hare has to bring a Motion for a Protective Order. The hearing regarding that motion and all the motion work can total $5-10k, depending on the issue. It’s very costly. In a defamation suit against Penn or Grant, I am sure either would ask for the kitchen sink and O’Hare would be filing for many, many protective orders.

The FBI has NO JURISDICTION in the Zodiac case. So, the FBI only did work on the request of local police departments. I don’t think the FBI would do anything with the Zodiac case upon a citizen’s request. If a police agency made the request, that would be a different matter.

I have never seen a law enforcement agency do anything at the request of a private citizen who is NOT a suspect in the case. And, if SFPD ran O’Hare’s prints and they didn’t match, it wouldn’t clear him. Penn would probably say (others sure have) that O’Hare planted fake prints. Grant would say, "I was wrong about O’Hare being the trigger man, but he’s still one of the Zodiacs." What would it prove?

I have no idea what SFPD would do if someone from city administration made a request on behalf of O’Hare to run his prints against Zodiac latents. However, I suspect that because their funds are not unlimited and LE has never considered him a suspect, such a request would likely fall on deaf ears. I could be wrong.

As to your first statement about the cost of litigation, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most lawsuits are business to business simply because no one else can afford to sue. The normal person typically sues on personal injury cases. Bankruptcy and family law actions are nothing like a civil defamation case. Bankruptcies are often done on flat fees. Divorce litigation is expensive, but necessary, so people find a way to pay. A defamation lawsuit is elective. No one ever has to file one. I can see someone wanting to clear their name, but at what cost? When the bill starts to approach six figures, it’s cost prohibitive.

No defamation trial would be less than three days. It would probably be longer. A three-day trial, including preparation, would cost $25k, minimum. That does not include all the motion work and discovery necessary to get to that point. A three-day trial is very short. Most civil trials last longer. I doubt O’Hare wants to spend even $25k on disproving Penn or Grant’s allegations, which only even a fraction of Zodiac researchers find credible!!!!

If I’m O’Hare, I go to SFPD headquarters and do a brief power point presentation demonstrating that I’m listed on numerous Zodiac Killer websites, including this one, as at least a nominal suspect, and I ask them if they’d run my prints as a personal favor just to clear my name.

SFPD would do it. The San Francisco FBI office would do it. The FBI in Washington would do it. But again, he had the opportunity to have all this done back in early 1981 when the FBI came to him, as reported in both the Washington Monthly article and Times 17.

I think LE would ask him to take a polygraph rather than run his prints. That would be worthless because it wouldn’t help him in a court case. In fact, if he is not a suspect, I would guess that LE would tell him to hire a private polygrapher. Additionally, if you haven’t figured this out, his prints failing to match the PH crime scene would NOT IN ANY WAY prove that the was not the Zodiac Killer. I would only prove that he didn’t touch the cab. There could be more than one Zodiac. The Hillside Stranger was two cousins. There are many Team Zodiac theories. So, fingerprints would, at best, clear him only of Stine’s killing, but not the other murders. And the failure find a fingerprint match would not exonerate him of conspiracy with other parties.

In light of that…how exactly does O’Hare prove that he is NOT the Zodiac Killer?

“These statements evidence some of the most striking ignorance of the legal profession that I have ever seen.”

Really? If you’re a practicing lawyer, I find it hard to believe that my comments strike you as more ignorant than what you encounter in court on a daily basis. In any case, I’m not a lawyer, and I assume from your handle that you are, so I speak to be instructed in these matters. Which is why, for example, I asked you if a judge in a civil case could compel the FBI lab to do a fingerprint comparison with the PH latents, assuming for example that O’Hare sued Grant and then Grant asked for O’Hare’s fingerprints to prove that the accusation in his book was correct.

“First, lawyers take fees on contingency, but only cases that have a high probability of recovery (usually personal injury cases). No attorney that I know would take a defamation case on contingency.”

One of my in-laws worked for a PI firm which advertised on TV; she said it was scandalous how high the bar was for the firm to take someone on. However, this does seem to suggest that only rich people can afford to sue for defamation.

If you inadvertently cut in front of me at Starbucks, and then to get even I write a book accusing you of child molestation and send it to your colleagues, and the book isn’t necessarily taken seriously, but your employer does eventually not renew your contract because he can’t afford to be associated with even the suggestion of sexual misconduct, and your life gets turned upside-down as a result, are you saying there’s no remedy for that, after all the evolution of laws in this country, and all the suits that have been filed?

That seems counterintuitive, somehow.

“Yes, discovery is not unlimited. But again, you also demonstrate that you know NOTHING about civil litigation. If defense counsel seeks discovery from Plaintiff O’Hare that O’Hare thinks is irrelevant, O’Hare has to bring a Motion for a Protective Order. The hearing regarding that motion and all the motion work can total $5-10k, depending on the issue. It’s very costly. In a defamation suit against Penn or Grant, I am sure either would ask for the kitchen sink and O’Hare would be filing for many, many protective orders.”

Okay, but aren’t you the one who made the point about discovery not being unlimited? So are you now saying that, for all practical purposes, it is? And couldn’t the judge in the case set boundaries at the outset for what was relevant and what wasn’t? In any case, if seeking discovery on an irrelevant basis costs the plaintiff money, doesn’t it also cost the defendant money, since lawyers are involved on both sides? Your point only makes sense if Penn or Grant were represented by some outfit like Neighborhood Legal Services, where it didn’t really cost them anything to deliberately waste the court’s time. However, I don’t think NLS would represent Penn or Grant under those circumstances, and since it wouldn’t be a criminal trial, would they get a court-appointed lawyer?



“The FBI has NO JURISDICTION in the Zodiac case.”

You mean that what is generally thought of as the Zodiac Killer case is actually a set of individual crimes investigated by Riverside PD (?), Solano County Sheriff’s Office, Vallejo PD, the Napa Sheriff’s Office, and SFPD? Wow. I didn’t know that. Thanks for the information.

“So, the FBI only did work on the request of local police departments. I don’t think the FBI would do anything with the Zodiac case upon a citizen’s request. If a police agency made the request, that would be a different matter.”

The FBI lab is in possession of the PH latents. Check the Riverside PD memo of October 20, 1969 if you don’t believe me. Literally thousands of comparisons have been made with those latents over the years, including many hundreds by computer. If Michael O’Hare had asked the FBI in 1981, when they came to his office multiple times, to compare his prints with the PH latents, I assure you they would have done so.


“I have never seen a law enforcement agency do anything at the request of a private citizen who is NOT a suspect in the case.”

But O’Hare is at least a nominal Zodiac suspect, since he’s listed in the FBI files as one.

“And, if SFPD ran O’Hare’s prints and they didn’t match, it wouldn’t clear him. Penn would probably say (others sure have) that O’Hare planted fake prints. Grant would say, "I was wrong about O’Hare being the trigger man, but he’s still one of the Zodiacs." What would it prove?”

I think you’re right about that in a general sense, since Arthur Leigh Allen has been eliminated by fingerprints and it doesn’t stop people from insisting he’s the Zodiac Killer. The same thing with Ted Kaczynski and most of the other familiar suspects. However, if I’m not mistaken, both Penn and Grant have said they believe the PH latents are Zodiac prints and specifically O’Hare’s, so if they tried to walk that back, they’d have their own words quoted back to them in perpetuity.

“I have no idea what SFPD would do if someone from city administration made a request on behalf of O’Hare to run his prints against Zodiac latents. However, I suspect that because their funds are not unlimited and LE has never considered him a suspect, such a request would likely fall on deaf ears. I could be wrong.”

I’m sure the FBI would have taken O’Hare’s prints and processed them in 1981, just as police take elimination DNA from people these days. The point is, the FBI lab is already in possession of the latents, so the question is more: Could SFPD veto such a comparison? I know SFPD wants to solve the case to the exclusion of all other agencies, so maybe they would, but once the latents were added to AFIS, I think that horse had left the barn, probably onto a ship that’s sailed.



“As to your first statement about the cost of litigation, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most lawsuits are business to business simply because no one else can afford to sue. The normal person typically sues on personal injury cases. Bankruptcy and family law actions are nothing like a civil defamation case. Bankruptcies are often done on flat fees. Divorce litigation is expensive, but necessary, so people find a way to pay. A defamation lawsuit is elective. No one ever has to file one. I can see someone wanting to clear their name, but at what cost? When the bill starts to approach six figures, it’s cost prohibitive.”

But didn’t O’Hare work for Harvard when he was accused? Wasn’t the November 1990 mailing made to the school? Doesn’t Harvard have a fairly well-thought-of law school? And didn’t Harvard have a lot to lose if it was associated with a serial killer, particularly since all of O’Hare’s degrees are from there as well? So isn’t it a little naive to think of O’Hare as this vulnerable solitary figure twisting in the wind, when his place of work was one of the public policy powerhouses in the entire world? O’Hare has admitted he was advised by Marvin Kalb, and I’m sure he received a wealth of free legal advice as well. And yet, the aftermath of accusations from a nerdy librarian and a career postal worker was his having to leave the school. So on some level, whether his reaction was in a court of law or not, O’Hare’s response wasn’t considered appropriate enough by Harvard to allow him to keep his job.


“No defamation trial would be less than three days. It would probably be longer. A three-day trial, including preparation, would cost $25k, minimum. That does not include all the motion work and discovery necessary to get to that point. A three-day trial is very short. Most civil trials last longer. I doubt O’Hare wants to spend even $25k on disproving Penn or Grant’s allegations, which only even a fraction of Zodiac researchers find credible!!!!”

All of this happened circa 1987-1990, not last week. There were no Zodiac researchers to speak of back then, and the Internet was a decade away. People like Voigt and Butterfield and Morford and Oranchak wouldn’t have known the Zodiac case then if they tripped over it. It was all about Harvard and Michael O’Hare and their inability to stay on the same page, which is why O’Hare has been at the Goldman School for (almost) 30 years.

“I think LE would ask him to take a polygraph rather than run his prints. That would be worthless because it wouldn’t help him in a court case.”

Aren’t polygraphs accepted in civil cases because the criterion is preponderance of the evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt?

“In fact, if he is not a suspect, I would guess that LE would tell him to hire a private polygrapher. Additionally, if you haven’t figured this out, his prints failing to match the PH crime scene would NOT IN ANY WAY prove that the was not the Zodiac Killer. I would only prove that he didn’t touch the cab. There could be more than one Zodiac. The Hillside Stranger was two cousins. There are many Team Zodiac theories. So, fingerprints would, at best, clear him only of Stine’s killing, but not the other murders. And the failure find a fingerprint match would not exonerate him of conspiracy with other parties. In light of that…how exactly does O’Hare prove that he is NOT the Zodiac Killer?”

Again, since O’Hare’s only accusers are Penn and Grant, and both are committed to the O’Hare prints/PH latents match, the rest of that paragraph is neither here nor there.

Cold Facts. Could a judge compel SFPD or RPD or some other legal agency to compare O’Hare’s prints to Zodiac latents on file? I am not sure. It would have to be a CA judge. If O’Hare had sued in Massachusetts, I don’t think a CA law enforcement agency would obey an order from a MA judge. If a CA judge ordered it, I would expect that the law enforcement agency’s general counsel would evaluate the order and determine whether or not they would have to follow it. At first blush, I don’t think a CA Court could order an LE agency who is not party to the case to do anything. But, I could be wrong about that. I have not ever encountered a situation like that.

So, one glaring assumption that you make is that O’Hare left Harvard because of Grant and Penn’s allegations. I don’t think that has been established. There could be any number of reasons why Harvard either chose not to renew O’Hare’s contract or O’Hare opted not to renew the contract. It is speculation that his departure from Harvard had anything to do with Zodiac allegations. And if Harvard thought O’Hare was too toxic, why would Berkley hire him? Until we can establish that Harvard parted ways with him because of Zodiac allegations, then I think we are just trying to reconcile what could be coincidences with mere speculation.

I don’t think Harvard would defend O’Hare in a defamation suit. First, they have no duty to defend him. Additionally, Harvard would probably have to sue Penn in CA. I don’t think MA courts would have jurisdiction over Penn. Defamation is not a federal cause of action. I don’t think a defamation suit would meet the diversity jurisdiction damages requirements. The last thing Harvard’s lawyers would want is to get involved in a lawsuit against Penn in CA. The same would apply to Ray Grant. Although, Grant sent the pamphlets to Harvard faculty. An argument can be made that he would have submitted himself to the jurisdiction of MA courts for doing so. Harvard isn’t going to defend a contract lecturer, though. They probably wouldn’t defend a tenured professor unless the allegations had something to do with his position (maybe allegations of plagiarism in his research that were unfounded).

Even the FBI said the nature of Penn’s allegations against O’Hare could not be confirmed or denied (because it all involves subjective code work). If O’Hare turns out to be the Zodiac, I will eat my words. I have analyzed both Grant’s and Penn’s case against him. The best that I can say is that it is very complicated and unverifiable. It’s kind of like creationism. One thing to note about O’Hare is that he is not a stocky guy. Every Zodicac description has some mention of a bulky man. O’Hare doesn’t fit that bill at all. Neither does Penn, which calls into question Grant’s theory.

To be clear, I don’t question anything you’ve told me about how defamation cases are handled in the real world. Everything you’ve said sounds correct, has been well explained in language that even a legal dilettante like myself can understand, and I bow to your expertise. What I would say, though, is that the situation regarding Michael O’Hare is unique in human history, if not without legal precedent (since virtually every situation in life seems to have a precedent or parallel that would apply in court). So it might make the situation clearer if we look at it apart from the legal scaffolding.

O’Hare had two obviously underemployed but very bright people write comprehensive books about him being a Zodiac Killer suspect. Gareth Penn’s book, Times 17, which was self-published in the late spring of 1987, was then featured in a Boston Herald-American article by Eric Fehrnstrom (later Mitt Romney’s campaign manager), Author Targets Harvard Lecturer in Zodiac Case, on October 29, 1987. O’Hare would later describe the effect this article had on his colleagues in his Washington Monthly article. Ray Grant then mailed 90 copies of his own self-published book, The Zodiac Murders—Solved! to JFK School faculty and 6 copies to Harvard administrators in November 1990. O’Hare makes absolutely no reference whatsoever to that event in his article, even though that article contains lesser episodes like the arrival of Penn postcards and a couple of snippets of dialogue with O’Hare’s lawyer and a curious colleague.

So, if one extends the presumption of innocence to O’Hare, what would cause these two men to write about him that way? Grant clearly got the connection to O’Hare from Penn, so where did Penn get it? As both Grant and Zodiac researcher Ed Neil have pointed out, having done the research independently of each other and ten years apart, the book Gareth Penn cites on page 31 of Times 17 simply doesn’t exist. So we have an extremely bright individual with multiple degrees from Cal-Berkeley, two of which were on the esoteric subject of Germanic languages, and he bases his lifelong obsession on something he originally made up out of whole cloth. It’s the plot of the movie Memento, except in this case no one sticks around for the end, which is actually the beginning.

And yet, O’Hare looks like the Zodiac sketch. So does half the male population from that era, but the point is, he’s not eliminated by it. Plus he was employed in San Francisco during the Zodiac period. Plus he makes no effort to cite places and times that put him elsewhere during Zodiac murder events. Granted, those events happened fifty years ago, but O’Hare lived in the San Francisco area then, plus when he wasn’t in San Francisco, he was working on specific professional projects like the San Diego airport. So if one assumes Gareth Penn pulled his name out of a hat, he just managed to land on someone who not only can’t be eliminated as a suspect, but refuses to offer any sort of detailed rebuttal to the charges beyond a shrug of his shoulders. His Washington Monthly article is written from the implied presumption that someone who does what he does for a living cannot possibly have committed the Zodiac crimes. He expects people to assume his innocence and share his tongue-in-cheek outrage.

If I were accused of the Zodiac crimes, even though I’m barely old enough to have committed them, I would point for example to the fact that I didn’t learn to drive until I was in my early 20s, and wasn’t issued a license by my home state until 1973, and didn’t own a car until 1974. I didn’t own a gun until I was almost 40. If someone sent a book accusing me of the Zodiac crimes to my place of business, and I was then advised by a lawyer that a defamation suit would be ruinous, I would respond with a detailed account of my life from 1966 through 1974, as best I could reconstruct it, and offer to be polygraphed by a disinterested third party, and pay for it. I would contact the police agencies involved and volunteer to give them statements and do whatever else I could to cooperate. I believe the vast majority of professionals would respond in a similar fashion.

O’Hare’s response, in contrast, has been smug. Why defend yourself when no one believes the accusations against you? If someone accused you of shoplifting, or of stealing from the poor box, would you bother to defend yourself? Why would I do that when I have money? What’s that you say? Me? A mass murderer? Surely you jest.

“So, one glaring assumption that you make is that O’Hare left Harvard because of Grant and Penn’s allegations. I don’t think that has been established. There could be any number of reasons why Harvard either chose not to renew O’Hare’s contract or O’Hare opted not to renew the contract. It is speculation that his departure from Harvard had anything to do with Zodiac allegations. And if Harvard thought O’Hare was too toxic, why would Berkley hire him? Until we can establish that Harvard parted ways with him because of Zodiac allegations, then I think we are just trying to reconcile what could be coincidences with mere speculation.”

Grant’s mailing happened in November 1990. O’Hare left about as soon as academically feasible after that, which was the following summer. But post hoc, ergo propter hoc, eh?

O’Hare was already on record, the year before, as saying that Harvard was the best of all possible worlds for a public policy person. O’Hare also bragged about his favorable mortgage agreement in Brookline, and he owned a cottage in Vermont as well. There was also his wife’s employment with the Commonwealth and his live-in sculptor mother’s local gallery contacts to consider. It does seem likely that the move was against his will.

So why else would he leave? True, at the JFK School he was a tiny little minnow in a very big pond, but he’d been there for nine years and he also worked for the Boston Museum in a consulting capacity. The Goldman School is currently ranked #1 by U. S. News & World Report, but in 1991 it had only 16 faculty members to the JFK School’s 90, and one thing seems certain: they didn’t offer O’Hare a big wad of cash to make the move, since he had exactly the same title at Cal-Berkeley as he had at Harvard: Lecturer in Public Policy. If a rival academic department is going to lure you away from where you are now, the first thing they do is offer you a fancier title. O’Hare’s choice of homes seems also to have been made hastily; he bought a house in Berkeley Heights in 1991, that he then left in 1995 for his current upscale address.

I think he left because of the Zodiac allegations, but good luck getting Harvard to tell anyone that. What possible upside would there be for them to hold a press conference and say, “Look, we think this guy just might be the Zodiac Killer, so we’re letting him go,” or even worse, “We’re not sure exactly what’s going on here, so we’ve decided to throw Mr. O’Hare under the bus and wish him the best of luck in the future.” The only way we’re going to find out what Harvard did about O’Hare and why is if he’s found to have been the Zodiac Killer, in which case Harvard will likely point out that the people who accepted him as a student, granted him degrees, and hired him as a lecturer are all no longer associated with the school. And good riddance, by the way. 



“I don’t think Harvard would defend O’Hare in a defamation suit. First, they have no duty to defend him. Additionally, Harvard would probably have to sue Penn in CA. I don’t think MA courts would have jurisdiction over Penn. Defamation is not a federal cause of action. I don’t think a defamation suit would meet the diversity jurisdiction damages requirements. The last thing Harvard’s lawyers would want is to get involved in a lawsuit against Penn in CA. The same would apply to Ray Grant. Although, Grant sent the pamphlets to Harvard faculty. An argument can be made that he would have submitted himself to the jurisdiction of MA courts for doing so. Harvard isn’t going to defend a contract lecturer, though. They probably wouldn’t defend a tenured professor unless the allegations had something to do with his position (maybe allegations of plagiarism in his research that were unfounded).”

The only quibble there is that, according to Bentley on Mike Morford’s private board, what Grant sent to Harvard were large 8.5 x 11 copy center books about the size of city phone directories, which would have cost $30-$40 apiece, not pamphlets. I believe pamphlets were what he mailed to O’Hare’s neighbors. 



“Even the FBI said the nature of Penn’s allegations against O’Hare could not be confirmed or denied (because it all involves subjective code work). If O’Hare turns out to be the Zodiac, I will eat my words. I have analyzed both Grant’s and Penn’s case against him. The best that I can say is that it is very complicated and unverifiable. It’s kind of like creationism. One thing to note about O’Hare is that he is not a stocky guy. Every Zodicac description has some mention of a bulky man. O’Hare doesn’t fit that bill at all. Neither does Penn, which calls into question Grant’s theory.”

I’ve seen O’Hare on TV and You Tube. I wouldn’t describe him as stocky either, but he’s also not skinny. When I was in my 20s and early 30s, I weighed over 200 pounds, spent a lot of time in the gym lifting weights, and was occasionally described as “fat and sloppy.” Now I weigh in the mid-170s and am mostly vegan. Also, I think the Zodiac tends to be described as stocky because someone said ‘stocky’ once and, since there are very few descriptions of him, people like Graysmith kept going back to that word. Faraday and Jensen both died, Mageau didn’t get a good look at him, he was wearing a costume at Lake Berryessa, the kids on Washington Street saw him from afar, and anything that comes out of Donald Fouke’s mouth is suspect. And Grant says O’Hare was the shooter, not Penn.