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| # | Post Title | Result Info | Date | User | Forum |
| Re: Ross Handwriting | 13 Relevance | 11 years ago | morf13 | Ross Sullivan | |
| Did you make that video Ukspy? I really disagree with some of these comparisons, especially that "n", I think that is so WAAY off. Also the video‘s way of transposing Ross’ characters onto Zodiac’s, either by digitally "retracing" them or just digitally coloring in the pixels to red, alters the construction of the characters by removing the pen strokes, so it actually hurts the comparison. BUT I really do like the idea of laying out the comparisons in a video like this, it makes it very easy to follow what is harder to do on this thread, and especially just by description. That’s what’s great about opinions, they don’t always match. I think the n is right on. This video was made by member, Paul_Averly | |||||
| Re: Ross Handwriting | 13 Relevance | 11 years ago | morf13 | Ross Sullivan | |
| If you read this forum, this video is nothing new: I would challenge the skeptics or Ross being Zodiac, that will undoubtedly say "you can make a video of almost any Z suspect’s prints and get matches as in this video" to do just that, make a video like this and demonstrate that you can get the same similarities. Not sure what you are saying here morf. There has been POI after POI that shows similarities of Zodiac. Manalli’s thread for one goes into great depth about this. What about Ted K? One of the closest there is. If one takes a mish-mash of many "Zodiac" letters, we are bound to have a few similarities. We are basically all taught the same way to print. How many of them are tied to RCC? How many of them look identical to the sketch?? Let’s look at Ross as a whole. For somebody that does not believe Z wrote the Riverside stuff, this is a dead issue. For those of us that believe the experts, this is a very real issue, and a valuable path to follow for research. With Manalli, we had tons of writing to work with to spot things that matched and things that didn’t. Just using this poor quality single sample, we are spotting multiple things that are close or similar to Z’s writing. Imagine if we had a lot to work with, letter K, letter F,etc | |||||
| Re: Ross Handwriting | 13 Relevance | 11 years ago | Tahoe27 | Ross Sullivan | |
| If you read this forum, this video is nothing new: I would challenge the skeptics or Ross being Zodiac, that will undoubtedly say "you can make a video of almost any Z suspect’s prints and get matches as in this video" to do just that, make a video like this and demonstrate that you can get the same similarities. Not sure what you are saying here morf. There has been POI after POI that shows similarities of Zodiac. Manalli’s thread for one goes into great depth about this. What about Ted K? One of the closest there is. If one takes a mish-mash of many "Zodiac" letters, we are bound to have a few similarities. We are basically all taught the same way to print. | |||||
| Re: Ross Handwriting | 13 Relevance | 11 years ago | morf13 | Ross Sullivan | |
| If you read this forum, this video is nothing new: I would challenge the skeptics or Ross being Zodiac, that will undoubtedly say "you can make a video of almost any Z suspect’s prints and get matches as in this video" to do just that, make a video like this and demonstrate that you can get the same similarities. | |||||
| Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 | 13 Relevance | 12 years ago | Tahoe27 | David Faraday & Betty Lou Jensen 12/20/68 | |
| morf13, Subject: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun May 02, 2010 12:59 am Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Ukiah Daily Journal, filled with mistakes, or incosistencies. Click the photo to see whole article morf13, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun May 02, 2010 6:45 pm Mistakes/inacurracies include: *Found shot at 11:30……the correct time was 11:13-11:14 when they were found *Shot in head by rifle…..proven that he was shot with a pistol *States that police questioned WORKMEN on their way to the graveyard shift at Humble Oil…..they only questioned one WORKMAN, James Owen, that was a witness that night (at least in the report, he is the only witness that worked at Humble Oil) *Jensen was found 11 feet from the car…..wasnt this distance alot further? tahoe27, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun May 02, 2010 6:50 pm Mistakes/inacurracies include: *Found shot at 11:30……the correct time was 11:13-11:14 when they were found *Shot in head by rifle…..proven that he was shot with a pistol *States that police questioned WORKMEN on their way to the graveyard shift at Humble Oil…..they only questioned one WORKMAN, James Owen, that was a witness that night (at least in the report, he is the only witness that worked at Humble Oil) *Jensen was found 11 feet from the car…..wasnt this distance alot further? Page one of the police report stated 10 ft. Lundblad stated much further. , Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:18 am This kind of thing is interesting, so very sad that these kids died at this mans hand…but what makes everyone so sure it was a man? Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:04 am People saw a man. Unless, of course, ‘he’ was a really butch lesbian. sandy betts, Subject: Lake Herman rd Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:27 pm They should have questioned the men at Syar and Harms sift change , it was much closer to the crime scene than Humble oil ? A worker from Syar, would have to also drive past Blue Rock Springs to go home towards Vallejo, after working the swing shift. If the killer lived in Benica, and worked at Syar, then he wouldn’t have to drive past Blue Rock, but would for Lake Herman road killing. To drive past both crime scenes and work in that area, I would have to say he may have worked at Syar. Syar did a lot of construction work, like cement work, they had water trucks, and they had a lab. They had sift work and the shift change fits the time of Lake Herman rd. shooting. If that is correct, then he would have to leave work a half hr later on July 4th. VPD would be the ones to do any questioning of the Syar men, because that is in their jurisdiction, Humble is Benica. bayarea60s, Subject: Syar Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:13 pm Sandy…This is the first time I’ve heard of Syar being right in the area. I don’t recall anyone from LE stating they ever went over to Syar. Course they very well could have, definetely should have… sandy betts, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:48 pm Sandy…This is the first time I’ve heard of Syar being right in the area. I don’t recall anyone from LE stating they ever went over to Syar. Course they very well could have, definetely should have… If they did do that , I haven’t read it in any report. The poi that I have the picture of , looks as if he works with concrete. There is gray dust on his boots, knees, and his hands in one of the pictures I have. He looks like a clone to Kane, but younger than Kane. The people who have his picture showing on their Z sites, have never been asked to remove it. You would think who ever this guy is wouldn’t want his picture shown like that ? The only reason I can think of , is that the picture is of the real killer , but the name Kane is not his name. The Hispanic people who have seen the picture, claim he looks to be Hispanic , Italian, perhaps Greek . I can’t think of any people who have a poi, who have ever been shot at, or harassed by their suspect, as I have . That should mean something ? If you only read parts of my story, it would be hard to connect the dots. But when you read or hear it all, I don’t see how anyone wouldn’t see the big picture ? I would love to be proven wrong, but no one will even try that ! One person claims that its all just a lie, put won’t show any proof of that to be so. That person claims to tell nothing but the truth, yet I can prove that at least one of his statements is not truthful. Sorry to go off topic, but I am very frustrated as you can tell by my post. Also someone sent me a link this morning to a site I never go to , because its such a downer. I would rather not be sent the links to this misfits site, but for what ever reason I keep getting them ? I don’t like reading negative posts, that is why I am at this site, all I want is the truth to be told, and the "right people" to know the truth. zodio, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:03 pm I for one believe you 100% Sandy. bayarea60s, Subject: Sandy Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:20 pm You know that case Morf is working on in Pleasanton from ’67, the couple that was murdered with all the kids, either the guy who was murdered, or the gals ex husband also worked in cement…. morf13, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:54 pm You know that case Morf is working on in Pleasanton from ’67, the couple that was murdered with all the kids, either the guy who was murdered, or the gals ex husband also worked in cement…. Wow, I had forgotten that, thanks sandy betts, Subject: LHR Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:55 am I for one believe you 100% Sandy. Thank you so much for letting me know that Zodio ! I found that people who are truthful, are the believers. The ones who are not truthful , don’t believe or trust others. I have nothing to gain with a made up story, as hard a story as it is for others to believe, its 100% the truth. Thank you again, it means a lot for me to know that there are good people like you out there. bayarea60s, Subject: Sandy Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:06 pm Seems there could be a cement connection on that case Morf has been working on. The one in Pleasanton… sandy betts, Subject: cement connection Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:21 pm Seems there could be a cement connection on that case Morf has been working on. The one in Pleasanton… I will need to read that one , thanks bayarea60’s. There was one Z letter sent from Pleasanton, and near by Pleasanton we have a young girl still missing from San Ramon, Michelle Michailoff ( not sure about that spelling ?). My poi wanted me to think he was the unsub in that one ? "If" he is reading this post, he needs to send me more proof that it was him, because I doubt very much that he did it in broad day light ! bruce3, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:57 pm It should have included interviewing those workers on the water pipeline being constructed at LHR in 1968/9. As we know Homer Your was connected to this company doing the work and he and his wife were there the night of the murders to examine or check on the pipeline work. There would be welders/pipefitters and concret,etc., men working the site. sandy betts, Subject: LHR Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:09 pm It should have included interviewing those workers on the water pipeline being constructed at LHR in 1968/9. As we know Homer Your was connected to this company doing the work and he and his wife were there the night of the murders to examine or check on the pipeline work. There would be welders/pipefitters and concret,etc., men working the site. I wonder if we could find out what the company name was ? They have to have permits, and that is kept for many yrs. I was told that my poi was working on the new Antioch PD building in the early 90’s. So I went to where they would keep the permits. I was able to get the names of every contracting co. that worked the job ! It was many pages long . None of them showed any names that I recognized. The Contra costa Times news paper, did a report on the new PD building that was almost finished at that time. On the front page were two men finishing concrete, one looked like my poi, but his head was down. He was smoking, and smoothing out the concrete with both hands at once. Ambidextrous for sure. Zamantha, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:10 am They should have questioned the men at Syar and Harms sift change , it was much closer to the crime scene than Humble oil ? A worker from Syar, would have to also drive past Blue Rock Springs to go home towards Vallejo, after working the swing shift. If the killer lived in Benica, and worked at Syar, then he wouldn’t have to drive past Blue Rock, but would for Lake Herman road killing. To drive past both crime scenes and work in that area, I would have to say he may have worked at Syar. Syar did a lot of construction work, like cement work, they had water trucks, and they had a lab. They had sift work and the shift change fits the time of Lake Herman rd. shooting. If that is correct, then he would have to leave work a half hr later on July 4th. VPD would be the ones to do any questioning of the Syar men, because that is in their jurisdiction, Humble is Benica. Some information on Syar. … trZoI6sN7A SYAR INDUSTRIES HISTORY Over seventy years of achievement began in 1938 when C.M. “Tony” Syar started his construction business in California with his new contractor’s license and a 1932 International dump truck. Always looking to the future and working to provide the best for his customers, in the 1940’s Tony began supplying readymix concrete to the construction industry with plants in Vallejo and Fairfield in Solano County. These plants provided high quality building materials for Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Travis Air Force Base and other critical military needs during the war years in addition to various commercial uses. In the early 1950’s Syar Industries added a major sand and gravel operation and readymix plant in Madison, Yolo County, which provided much of the building material for Monticello Dam and Interstate Highway 80 and served a rapidly expanding construction industry market. During the next two decades, Syar Industries continued to add aggregate production facilities, including the Lake Herman Quarry near Vallejo, to serve its growing base of satisfied customers. Also during this time, Tony turned his hand towards developing his own projects. The Leisure Town retirement and golf community in Vacaville was planned and developed by Syar in the early 1960’s and is now home to over 2,500 residents. The adjoining Green Tree Golf Club is a 27-hole public golf course and driving range owned and operated by the company. Syar’s largest commitment to growth came in March 1986, when the company acquired the assets and property of Basalt Rock Company, a division of Dillingham Heavy Construction, Inc. With the addition of the Napa quarry and barge loading facility and a major sand and gravel operation in Healdsburg, Syar’s service area expanded overnight within Napa and Sonoma counties. This acquisition established the company as one of the largest aggregate producers in Northern California. In more recent years, Syar has continued its growth through the acquisition of the Sacramento area locations for Syar Concrete LLC, a subsidiary of Syar Industries, Inc., that substantially increased the market for Syar’s readymix operations. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:26 am Zam–I took some stills from their video. … light=syar That’s a great video if you haven’t watched it yet. You’ll like it. Zamantha, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:51 am Zam–I took some stills from their video. … light=syar That’s a great video if you haven’t watched it yet. You’ll like it. Yes, I always find Syar most interesting. I have pictures somewhere in this forum that I took from the outside looking in at the Vallejo/Benicia location, when Sandy and I did a drive by. Here are some pictures taken inside the Napa Syar, which was not opened until the 80’s but still gives an idea of what goes on inside. Zamantha, Subject: Re: Newly discovered LHR article from 12/23/68 Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:17 am On Page 2 there’s a few pictures of the Syar Location LHR, from the outside looking in. … llejo-vibe | |||||
| Re: Official Detective June 1970 Eric Zelms | 13 Relevance | 12 years ago | Bayarea60s | Zodiac Police & Detectives | |
| Ok we’re combining a lot of things here, and we have to go back to the beginning as we know it. Pellessetti receives a dispatch, he says he is close by the scene (never has stated his location, but he must have been close). Pel roles up on Wash/Cherry, depending how close he was, Z probably has not made it to Jackson as yet. Z had to be concerned seeing an SFPD unit already on the scene. Pel goes up to scene, sees kids heading to cab, intercepts them, walks them back to their house, and finds out perp is a white guy. Still thinking it’s a robbery. Pel then goes up to cab and sees Stine and thinks that he is dead. In the video Pel states, "Boy I couldn’t get to that radio fast enough to report it in". He doesn’t say that’s what he did. I don’t he did. I think he immediately went down Cherry, heading North towards Jackson, looking for white killer. In the police report filed that night Pel states it’s when he gets to Jackson and Cherry, doesn’t see anyone, and is about to head back to crime scene when Fouke’s roles up. Fouke’s is answering a different dispatch, then what Pel first answered. Fouke’s is only 1 minute away from the time he receives the dispatch to arriving at Jackson and Cherry (even if he stopped and spoke with Z). Impossible for Pel to do all that in 1 minute’s time and be at Jackson and Cherry when Fouke’s roles up. Now in the video Pel. says he got to Jackson and Cherry, turned east on Jackson and walked down to Maple and met the dog walker there. Well first why would he turn east onto Jackson? He has no knowledge, or reason to believe that Z headed that way, correct? But let’s say that’s what he did. He walks down to Maple, then speaks with dog walker, then turns around and heads back up Jackson, heading west towards Cherry. When he gets to Cherry that’s when Foukes roles up, correct? That’s what Pel. says in the video. Ever walked that walk? I have many times….Now Pel. is looking for an armed murderer, so he’s has to take time to check around cars, buildings, etc, every step of the way. Minimum time it takes to walk from Wash./Cherry to Jackson to Maple and back, to Cherry, have 2, 30 second conversations, is about 11 minutes, and according to the video that’s when Fouke’s pulls up. 11+ minutes after Pel receives the initial call, means Foukes was answering a dispatch some 10+ minutes after Pel’s. dispatch, and Fouke’s still isn’t aware that perp isn’t black, but white, and crime isn’t robbery but murder. Doesn’t sound to me like Pel. ever notified dispatch about the race change, or the crime change, not before he saw Fouke’s anyway. And it’s Fouke’s, to be sure, that leads investigation into park east of Maple. when fouke’s leaves Pel at Cherry he heads west on Jackson up to Arguello, turns right goes to Pacific, turns right and heads back down Pacific heading east. Full siren and lights by then. for sure Fouke’s has called in on what he has seen and where he thinks perp went. That’s why there’s immediate coverage in that area of park. Info couldn’t have come from Pel. He didn’t see Z, or have any idea which way Z went, only Fouke’s did. So Foukes did report that night that he saw perp. He didn’t make it official. It seems both Pel and Fouke’s maybe had some animosity towards assisting detectives in any way, and none came to Fouke’s until Z releases his embarrassing letter in Nov. and to Fouke’s I think he sees it as their problem not his. If no one cared to come to him and ask him, too bad, that’s their job not his. Lee may have also been trying to incite Z to write again to communicate, to piss Z off and hope he makes a mistake. I recall when that took place and when Lee finished with his comment about Z may be a latent homosexual it was such an odd thing to say. But he may have said it just again to incite Z. | |||||
| Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence | 13 Relevance | 13 years ago | traveller1st | Zodiac Case General Discussion | |
| bayarea60s, Subject: The Stine Scene Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:09 am I did this on Tom’s site a few years back, so I’ll do it here. I’m doing this from memory, I don’t think I need to pull out my notes for this. I with friends have re-enacted the crime scene 3 times, twice from the police reports, and years later from what is stated on the video. If you follow the police report written by Pellessetti and his partner, timewise we knew it never made sense to us. We knew there was something missing. The way the report reads is Pellessetti gets this dispatch, he’s close to scene (never states how close), we thought he was close enough that Z was probably halfway between Washington and Jackson on Cherry. Z saw their squad car, but they didn’t see him. Pel. stops his car on Washington facing east in front of Stines cab sees the kids in the street approaching Stine’s cab, Pel. gets out and stops kids before they get to cab, he takes the kids back to their house, then he procedes to go to cab, and it’s then he sees Stine and knows Stine is dead. From there he begins to head North on Cherry looking for perp, gun drawn, flashlight in other hand. He gets down to Jackson and up pulls Foukes and Zelm. Now we need to back up here. Foukes states he was on Presidio heading north, approaching Washington, he went through Washington intersection and went up to next street which is Jackson, he turns left, heading west. He has his running lights on and says he was travelling between 35 -40 MPH. When he gets about 150′ from Maple St. is where he first sees Z coming down Jackson, on north side of Jackson, heading east. From the time Foukes first sees Z until he is upon him at 3713 Jackson, where Z turns and heads up steps, about 2 -3 seconds have elapsed. Not much time. Foukes says he slowed down looked at Z, who has made his way up the 5-6 steps and is standing there looking back at Foukes, and Foukes punches the gas and continues towards Cherry and Jackson where he meets up with Pellessetti. This is important, from the time Foukes leaves Z standing on those steps until Foukes meets up with Pellessetti @ Cherry and Jackson, a total of 6 – 8 seconds have elapsed. If I’m remembering it right from the bottom of those steps to Maple St. is 82′. It would take Z at least 12 seconds to cover that distance, not counting coming down the steps. So it’s impossible for Foukes to have seen Z at Maple street. He presumed, and has stated it since he wrote the report back in ’69, that Z headed that way. Absolutely no way for Foukes/Zelm to have seen Z near Maple, let alone heading towards the park. All’s we know from that point on is that Z stays in area, close enough to hear the motorcicles in the park, but never states that he saw anything. If he were in the park he would have been able to see everything, not just hear it. It’s very late I have to get up early. I will continue this tomorrow. Cause it gets even more interesting after the video is produced. I wish I could have them both in a room for 5 minutes, we still have never received an accurate story from both of the RO’s. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:21 am And if I am Fouke, I immediately sa, Oh Shit. I just saw that guy walking up these steps, let me turn around and go back to that house. Thats why I am kind of skeptical if Fouke EVER saw Zodiac walking up steps. I certainly believe he could have seen him walking down the street. I am in agreement, I dont think that he would have made it very far down Jackson before being seen. There are only 3 possibilities here… A) He went into a nearby house(could explain being able to see, or at least hear what was going on, and would give him some cover) B) He got into a car and drove away(would make it less likely he would be close by, especially if he just saw cops look right at him) C) He walked into the presidio(wouldnt the confidence of the police & dogs rule this out? They said if there was a mouse there, they would have found it) To me, this makes sense that Z likely went to a house nearby. I am making a list from the San Fran Directory of all the people living between 3400 & 4000 Jackson, especially between 3600 & 4000. Z wanted to be closer to Maple originally. His rendevous spot was close to Maple I think, maybe between Cherry & Spruce, or at the end of Maple. So far, I have not found anybody living at the address in which Fouke claims to have seen somebody go up steps. The closest I have found are the names of people at 3765,3746,3731,3755,3760,3737, trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:05 pm Here is another angle, Morf: At that time, San Francisco had a lot of crime, murders, mostly occuring in the Mission District, Tenderloin, Fillmore District, Potrero and Bayview Districts – crimes there are almost on a daily basis and another murder would not make as much news. Zodiac loved publicity. That is one reason I think he picked the Presidio Heights area – an upper middle class-to-wealthy area where crime rates are low. Perhaps he had family there; maybe he drove to a "safer" area nearby and listened on a scanner. There are speculations, of course, and anything is possible. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:15 pm There are not only houses on Maple in the direction of park , but there were many on Pacific facing the park. It is pretty easy to get to Pacific from Maple, you don’t have to climb over anything to do it. ( I have done it with heals on ) The house on Jackson that was supposed to be where z was seen going up the stairs, belonged to Mr X and no one else . It has been gone over many times before elsewhere. This is Mike R.’s suspects house. I think it is time we look at some of the other houses / apts.on Maple and on Pacific. Instead of rehashing all of the old stuff again and again. I can picture the z watching the "kiddies" playing on the swings at that park during the day time. Could that be what made him think about shooting them as they came bouncing out of the bus ? morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:14 pm There are not only houses on Maple in the direction of park , but there were many on Pacific facing the park. It is pretty easy to get to Pacific from Maple, you don’t have to climb over anything to do it. ( I have done it with heals on ) The house on Jackson that was supposed to be where z was seen going up the stairs, belonged to Mr X and no one else . It has been gone over many times before elsewhere. This is Mike R.’s suspects house. I think it is time we look at some of the other houses / apts.on Maple and on Pacific. Instead of rehashing all of the old stuff again and again. I can picture the z watching the "kiddies" playing on the swings at that park during the day time. Could that be what made him think about shooting them as they came bouncing out of the bus ? MrX did NOT live at the house that Zodiac supposedly walked up to sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:51 pm There are not only houses on Maple in the direction of park , but there were many on Pacific facing the park. It is pretty easy to get to Pacific from Maple, you don’t have to climb over anything to do it. ( I have done it with heals on ) The house on Jackson that was supposed to be where z was seen going up the stairs, belonged to Mr X and no one else . It has been gone over many times before elsewhere. This is Mike R.’s suspects house. I think it is time we look at some of the other houses / apts.on Maple and on Pacific. Instead of rehashing all of the old stuff again and again. I can picture the z watching the "kiddies" playing on the swings at that park during the day time. Could that be what made him think about shooting them as they came bouncing out of the bus ? MrX did NOT live at the house that Zodiac supposedly walked up to That is why he become a suspect . Please show me the report that shows the address you are showing , because that is not the house I was shown . We need to have this corrected if it is not the correct house. The house I was shown was in the middle of Jackson on the north side, not second from the corner. trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:21 pm I have not seen anything about this question, which I ask again, but it could play a major role….. Does anyone know, for certain who was driving the patrol car – Foulk or Zelms? The officer on the passenger side (since the suspect was walking on the north side, going in an eastern direction, while the patrol car was headed north and southwest towards Washington) would have a better look at the suspect. I still think the killer turned toward the house (which ever house it was), to pretend he was going there. He was not in a hurry, which would serve to arise more suspicion, and the dispatch stated a BMA. A very costly error, be remember, as I pointed out before, most crimes like what took place happen in the other districts on a regular basis, often more than one, and not being racial, it would be common to almost on an unconsious level to say "BMA" as most of the high crime areas involved someone of that description. A shooting in Presidio Heights, while possible, would be considered very rare. patinky, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:34 pm To me, this makes sense that Z likely went to a house nearby. I am making a list from the San Fran Directory of all the people living between 3400 & 4000 Jackson, especially between 3600 & 4000. Z wanted to be closer to Maple originally. His rendevous spot was close to Maple I think, maybe between Cherry & Spruce, or at the end of Maple. So far, I have not found anybody living at the address in which Fouke claims to have seen somebody go up steps. The closest I have found are the names of people at 3765,3746,3731,3755,3760,3737, Morf, I tend to see it this way too. The rule book says the closer in time to the event the more accurate a statement is likely to be. I can’t see anything sinister (such as CYA) in Fouke’s statement being different than the video made decades later. Time, memory and age can cause honest mistakes. In my view, some tend to think cops should be infallible when in reality they do professional work, even in 1969 but humans make honest mistakes. :sunny: There’s no way the Zodiac would say, "I observed and heard the motorcycles from the the second-story window at my home on 3400 Jackson Street." So maybe he made up the proverbial story-with-a-grain-truth and said he was in the park. He also possibly could have escaped in a car if he was quick and had the car parked and headed away from the scene. I’ve always wondered if Stine’s killer did want to be dropped off at the original destination then on the spur of the moment decided Stine was an easy mark and at that point decided to make another kill. What would the likely conversation be between a male fare and a male cabby when the fare decides he wants to be dropped off somewhere other than the original destination. What reason would be given for asking to be taken on "up the road" so to speak? onewhoknows, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:32 pm Zodiac is in control now when he tells Paul Stine to go a block further, he’s in the front seat, with a loaded gun. He’s giving directions, calling the shots. To hop in a car and drive away near the scene would cause suspicion. Why doesn’t anyone believe Zodiac’s version of the evening, that he hid in the Presidio? Here is someone familiar with the forrest, with the woods, where he stalked and killed large game. Someone who knows about hunting dogs and trails of scent. Zodiac planned each kill and he was very intelligent. I agree that the closer to the actual event in time, the more reliable the report, unless someone was blatantly lying and I don’t see Fouke’s motivation to do so. I am sure that the Police investigated all the homes in that area, which are owned by wealthy high ranking citizens of SF. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:13 pm As far as I know the police didn’t go house to house , they only concentrated on the park area, they kept an all points bulletin through out the next day. Remember they were looking for a "robber" not the Zodiac at that time. The people living in those houses wouldn’t be thought of as needing more money, so I doubt that was something they gave any thought about doing. Of course I could be wrong about that, or anything else ? I think there would be a much longer report, like in the Lake Herman rd case, of people they talked to if they spoke to more people. Something I saw today while searching for more Z stuff , was a picture of Paul Stine with out the blacked out face. Bruce 3 saw the same thing when looking at the picture. Paul Stine still had on his glasses, so Zodiac didn’t use his for any disguise. That to me is a biggie ! Also in the police report, they wrote that the only things the perp took were the wallet and keys, no mention of glasses missing. It is a hard picture to look at because of so much blood, I had to look at it upside down to make sure I was seeing thee glasses. I also used a magnifying glass. They were on his face , a bit crooked of course, but there just the same. trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:23 pm I think one thing all of us can agree on is that Z planned this crime in advance. He studied the area well, and scouted where to park his car, and get his destination. He took the bus to downtown S.F. Whether it was the 38 Geary Street line or the Jackson Street line, he left his car there for a reason – to get away. Patinky: The "reason" why the killer asked to be taken up one more block (and it was at the last moment, or Stine would have corrected the original entry in the log) will never be known. There is plenty of room for speculation, but as Graysmith, stated, an obstacle was in the way. Someone walking a dog, people coming outside, anything is possible. All we can say is the original destination was Washington and Maple, and at the last minute changed to Cherry, one block up. Had Washington and Maple been the original crime scene, I doubt anyone would have seen him, but one never knows. The killer would walk downhill to his car and disappear into the night. There would have been no Foulk or Zelms, most likely, nor the sktech of the killer. Luck was once again on the killer’s side. Out of all the known crimes he committed, the Stine murder was the closest brush he had with LE, assuming that was the killer the officers saw. Zelm was killed on duty a few months later. Quicktrader, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:30 pm Many ideas, but why not take the simple one? Fouke saw him going up these stairs? Walking up six stairs in six seconds? Who the f… lived/worked there, 40yrs ago? QT tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:05 pm …To me, this makes sense that Z likely went to a house nearby. Pretty risky if he knew somebody there. There is always a chance someone would see you and if you are possibly a familiar face in the neighborhood, that couldn’t be good when the composite came out. onewhoknows, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:23 pm Good observations all. How about this, where do Zodiac’s claims and the officer’s claims match? For example, we can say they both agree that Zodiac was in SF the night of the Killing in that general area of the killing of Paul Stine. Where else do you find matches in the accounts of the evening? tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:35 pm Something I saw today while searching for more Z stuff , was a picture of Paul Stine with out the blacked out face. Bruce 3 saw the same thing when looking at the picture. Paul Stine still had on his glasses, so Zodiac didn’t use his for any disguise. That to me is a biggie ! Also in the police report, they wrote that the only things the perp took were the wallet and keys, no mention of glasses missing. It is a hard picture to look at because of so much blood, I had to look at it upside down to make sure I was seeing thee glasses. I also used a magnifying glass. They were on his face , a bit crooked of course, but there just the same. Sandy, I have an upclose photo of his face, untouched. There are no glasses. The blood sort settled around his eyes. It’s pretty gruesome, so I won’t post it. patinky, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:38 pm Zodiac is in control now when he tells Paul Stine to go a block further, he’s in the front seat, with a loaded gun. He’s giving directions, calling the shots. To hop in a car and drive away near the scene would cause suspicion. Why doesn’t anyone believe Zodiac’s version of the evening, that he hid in the Presidio? Here is someone familiar with the forrest, with the woods, where he stalked and killed large game. Someone who knows about hunting dogs and trails of scent. Zodiac planned each kill and he was very intelligent. I agree that the closer to the actual event in time, the more reliable the report, unless someone was blatantly lying and I don’t see Fouke’s motivation to do so. I am sure that the Police investigated all the homes in that area, which are owned by wealthy high ranking citizens of SF. How do we know Zodiac was familiar with the forest and that he stalked and killed large game and knew hunting dogs etc.? If he knew scenthounds then he’d know they would have trailed or treed him so that makes me speculate he wasn’t in the woods or park of the Presidio. It is factual dogs were used and it is a fact they didn’t rout the killer out of the park/woods. That suggests he wasn’t where he said he was. Those dogs are good, even in 1969. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:47 pm Good observations all. How about this, where do Zodiac’s claims and the officer’s claims match? For example, we can say they both agree that Zodiac was in SF the night of the Killing in that general area of the killing of Paul Stine. Where else do you find matches in the accounts of the evening? I can tell you Zelm’s family states he talked to the man that night. That matches up with Zodiac’s claims. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:10 pm There are not only houses on Maple in the direction of park , but there were many on Pacific facing the park. It is pretty easy to get to Pacific from Maple, you don’t have to climb over anything to do it. ( I have done it with heals on ) The house on Jackson that was supposed to be where z was seen going up the stairs, belonged to Mr X and no one else . It has been gone over many times before elsewhere. This is Mike R.’s suspects house. I think it is time we look at some of the other houses / apts.on Maple and on Pacific. Instead of rehashing all of the old stuff again and again. I can picture the z watching the "kiddies" playing on the swings at that park during the day time. Could that be what made him think about shooting them as they came bouncing out of the bus ? MrX did NOT live at the house that Zodiac supposedly walked up to That is why he become a suspect . Please show me the report that shows the address you are showing , because that is not the house I was shown . We need to have this corrected if it is not the correct house. The house I was shown was in the middle of Jackson on the north side, not second from the corner. Fouke now claims the address was 3713 Jackson, the address he saw Zodiac walking up the steps. Mr X lived at a house, with a number that was in the 3600 block of Jackson. Not very far away, but still, NOT the same address. You can ask Mike R, but I think the reason he started to suspect Mr X was because he wrote letters to the editors of SF Chron, and to boot, lived close to where Fouke saw Zodiac on Jackson tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:35 pm I have not seen anything about this question, which I ask again, but it could play a major role….. Does anyone know, for certain who was driving the patrol car – Foulk or Zelms? The officer on the passenger side (since the suspect was walking on the north side, going in an eastern direction, while the patrol car was headed north and southwest towards Washington) would have a better look at the suspect… Fouke was driving. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:12 pm I could find ZERO listings in the SF directory for a 3713 Jackson, not sure it even exists. Anybody try a title search on the property? If there is one, you can find ownership for the property back in 1969 morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:35 pm Just found out, there WERE houses on Maple, where Z walked. When he turned left off of Jackson, heading to teh Presidio, there were homes on that part of Maple. I thought there were not, but 34 Maple for example is in that section. For people with knowledge of SF, is there a Maple STREET as well as a Maple Ave? There must be, Maple Street in in the area of Presidio and is all nice homes, while Maple AVE has businesses. Also, a question for anybody, the ONLY listings on Maple St close to where Z headed towards the Presidio is the address of 34 Maple,its right there where Z would have been. Two separate listings for people living there, a ‘Mrs. Donald H. Campbell’ & a ‘Mrs. William Sterba’. Any idea why two different women would be listed at one address? THe name DONALD H. CAMPBELL is interesting because I found multiple listings for it in Riverside & Santa Barbara in the 50s and 60s,but since its a common name, I cant be sure they are the same person. At 100 Spruce,very close to the Stine scene, and address goven to Stine by Zodiac, there was a man named Milton C. Coburn. Not sure of his middle name, or age, but I found this interesting- Name: Milton C. Coburn Birth: 19 Apr 1909 Death: 12 Oct 1996 – Rancho Mirage, Riverside, California, United States of America Civil: California Name: Milton Cutler Coburn Birth: 19 Apr 1909 – Hawaii Death: 12 Oct 1996 – Riverside A definite Riverside connection to somebody living right at the Stine murder scene, and Zodiac escape route???? This guy have any sons?? Seagull, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:48 am I got tired of looking up addresses in the Presidio Heights area of Stine’s murder in the online Polk’s Directory so I copied and pasted a few of the pertinent streets. It’s not the tidiest cut and paste job I’ve ever done but I think it will help! The first column is Washington St., I didn’t remember to mark it like the rest. I copied all the addresses from Presidio Ave to Arguello Blvd. for Washington and Jackson Sts. and I copied the addresses from the Presidio to California St. for Cherry and Maple Sts. I do notice that there was a vacant house on Jackson St. near the intersection with Maple St. Hummmm… morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:03 am Very good stuff Seagull :cheers: Is that from 1969? Can you also add SPRUCE ST? Seagull, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:08 am Yes, it’s from the 1969-70 Polk’s Directory. Here’s the link if you want to look through other years- … 0francisco tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:19 am I do notice that there was a vacant house on Jackson St. near the intersection with Maple St. Hummmm… That’s creepy. I notice a few now that you mention it. Seagull, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:22 am Here’s Spruce St. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:32 am Eva Weil any relation to Eric Weil? I notice her on the list. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:34 am Lots of psychiatrists in that last post Seagull! And what does "no return" mean? bayarea60s, Subject: The correct address is Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:31 am The correct address where Foukes sees Z is 3725 Jackson St. In 1969, unlike today, that was the last address on Jackson before you would get to Maple. Today there is another house in there that was once part of the parcel that’s on the corner of Jackson and Maple, but actually has a Maple St. address. What Foukes stated was as he was approaching Maple St. he saw Z coming down the hill. When you are driving on Jackson heading west approaching Maple you can only see so far up the hill & that’s basically about 40′ or so from the steps. If Z is any further up the block on Jackson Foukes could not have seen Z as Foukes was approaching Maple. Again, I can’t say this enough, Foukes never saw Z near Maple, the closest Foukes saw Z to Maple was on the steps of 3725 Jackson, which are the closest steps leading to a house in 1969 to Maple, but it would take Z over twice as long to get to Maple on foot, then it would take Foukes to be talking with Pellessetti @ Cherry and Jackson. Foukes later says he assumed Z headed to the park. The one who had the best look at Z would have been Zelms. We’ve all been in the driver seat and tried to talk to someone on the sidewalk, you typically have to crane your head down so you can see the persons face, right? Well in this case when Foukes slows down to get a good look at Z, Z is up on the steps. I’ve been in the driver seat in front of those steps with a friend standing on that landing, you can see the guys legs from like the knees down. You have to bend way down to see the face, and Foukes would have to look around Zelms (hope he’s out of the way), to be able to see Z. I’ve often wondered in the description, or a good part of it, if it didn’t come from Zelm’s. We know Zelm’s wife has always stated that in the few months Zelm’s was alive between Oct. 1969 and Jan. 1970 that Zelm’s always told her that they spoke with Z. But if anyone did speak with Z, I would think it would have had to been Zelm’s, not Foukes. I don’t think Z lived in the neighborhood at all. I think he may have had access to a home in the area. As Sandy stated, there are tons of houses/apt.s on Pacific facing the park. Z wasn’t in the park, his first letter says he could hear the motorcicles, that’s all. I highly doubt Z would trap himself in a car on any street in the area. The easiest thing for a cop to do would be to do a car search, they’ve got cops that just saw Z. I doubt Z had his car there at all, he probably left it downtown. If Z in his letter states he could hear the motorcicles and then doesn’t say he was in the park, that would have triggered SFPD to do a massive house to house, even after the fact. As Sandy stated we’re not sure the detectives ever did any kind of house to house inquiry, they didn’t need to cause Z was in the park, right? 5+ K9’s in that park that night, they would have found Z in minutes. And remember Foukes car is travelling at about 50’/Sec. I think Maple to Cherry on Jackson is like 360′, so Foukes from the time he first sees Z, at about 100′ before he gets to Maple + the 360′ from Maple to Cherry @ 50′ per second = less than 10 sec’s. Jem, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:25 am Z couldn’t have risked leaving his car near the crime scene unless it would fit in with the other cars in the neighborhood. Did Z own a nice car? Did he rent or borrow one? Even if so, it would still be risky. Who knows when someone is going to remember the make, model, color, and even part of the plate number of an unfamiliar vehicle parked on the street? Then there’s the fun Z would have missed out on by leaving the scene quickly. Seems he might have enjoyed that part even more than killing. Z must have scoped out the area while planning the crime. So why not look for a house that’s unoccupied, or a home where an elderly couple lives alone and don’t keep their back doors locked? He could have hidden away in an unused bedroom or even the attic for quite some time without being caught. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:43 am So when z turned onto Jackson and was walking, was he on the side if the street closest to the presidio or on the other side closer to Washington ? morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:46 am and what’s an orphanage doing there on Spruce? morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:50 am I agree Bayarea, if zodiac didn’t say he went into the park or presidio they may have done a house to house search Nachtsider, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:01 am I still harbour the suspicion that Zodiac observed the police search from the safety of his getaway car, while slowly cruising past. Seagull, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:50 am Lots of psychiatrists in that last post Seagull! And what does "no return" mean? Spruce St. seemed to have a couple of professional office buildings near the intersection of California St. Going east, away from the Presidio, across California St. there were even more doctors offices. Children’s Hospital was on the west side of California St. between Cherry and Maple and where there is a hospital there are doctor’s offices. "No Return" simply means that the people canvasing the area knew an address was occupied but no information was returned as to who was occupying the space as opposed to a space being obviously vacant. I recall that people would go door to door and ask who lived at an address, if no one was home they would leave a questionnaire but the canvassers would also ask neighbors who lived or occupied addresses where no one was home. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:29 am I still think its possible that Zodiac gave Stine the location of ‘Washington & Maple’ because he wanted a quick escape into a waiting house or car. He likely may have realized that if he did the murder there, the cops might be investigating the houses and cars right in that immediate area, so he changed his mind to one block further, wash & Cherry. Then he could simply walk back to his waiting house or car putting a little distance between the crime scene and his safety. A quick walk to the end of Maple would put him around these homes: (the most likely spots in RED) MAPLE ST- 1 Maple..Frederick C. Whitman 34 Maple, L. Arundel Hopkins/ William Sterba/Donald H. Campbell (Several diff names at one residence???) Lambert Arundel Hopkins 101 Maple, John R. Gamble SPRUCE ST- 1 Spruce St..Robert P. Lilienthal 2 Spruce St…Mabel Filmer 16 Spruce st, Iver Lyche 33 Spruce st, Mrs. M D Young 100 Spruce, Milton C Coburn 101 Spruce, orphanage 107 Spruce, Donald P. Hill 115 Spruce, Vecki Morrell 121 Spruce, Garrison Southara Jr JACKSON ST- (after Maple if you are walking in Zodiac’s shoes) 3600 Jackson,Andrew Simpson 3616 Jackson,Robert S. Sherman 3625 Jackson, Reed L. Funston 3629 Jackson, Mark S. Cluett 3630 Jackson,John A. Vietor 3631 Jackson, Robert H. Footman 3633 Jackson,Wilfred E. Willis 3636 Jackson, Kjell Qvale 3641 Jackson, Charles P. Lebo 3653 Jackson, John G. Bowen 3660 Jackson, Rose N. Sutro 3673 Jackson, John P. Cox 3675 Vacant 3680 Jackson, Helen Laphan (before Maple if you are walking in Zodiac’s shoes) 3712 Jackson, Fred W. Bloch, 3728 Jackson, Coll Mac 3731 Jackson, Ilse Jawetz & Allen B. Wheelis 3736 Jackson, Charles B. Ehrman 3737 Jackson, Vincent K. Butler Jr 3746 Jackson, Beatrice Saroni 3747 Jackson, Laurence Sanford 3755 Jackson, Thomas E. Bacon 3756 Jackson, Mary L. Durkin 3760 Jackson, John B. Ducato 3765 Jackson, Morton A. Rosenblum 3769 Jackson, Evan R. Peters 3785 Jackson, Francis D. Boylon 3858 Jackson, Louis K. Lowenstein 3850 Jackson, Jas Mailliard So, is one of these people Zodiac? Is one of them related to Zodiac? Maybe Zodiac went to visit them and use them as an alibi or was house sitting, etc. Or maybe Zodiac just walked into the presidio(I doubt it), or went off in a waiting car. Again, the $64000 question, why this spot, out of all the spots in SF and sorrounding cities? He could have chosen more secluded areas, etc. I think he had some connection to this area. Maybe even one of the many psychiatrists in the area was treating Zodiac, and didnt know it. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:51 am Going to start disecting these residents in that area to see any of them have potential ties or roots in Santa Barbara (Domingos/Edwards)or Riverside(Bates)- Lambert Arundel Hopkins Name: Lambert A Hopkins Residence Year: 1939 Street Address: 2151 Mission Ridge rd Residence Place: Santa Barbara, California Publication Title: Santa Barbara California City Directory HE DIED 11/14/69 His son, Name: Thayer Hopkins Residence: 1943 – Santa Barbara, California, USA He died in 2000 So they were in Santa Barbara back in the 40’s. Any relatives of theirs (grandsons?)stay there into the 1960’s? morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:12 am Now here’s a good one! 3769 Jackson, Evan R. Peters Name: Evan R Peters Residence Year: 1972 Street Address: 383 Plaza De Sonadores M Residence Place: Santa Barbara, California Occupation: Hi Publication Title: Santa Barbara, California, City Directory, 1972 He was born in 1901, too old to be Zodiac…how about a son? I think this guy was associated with something called KENWOOD PRESS. Anybody ever hear of that? trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:09 pm Of all the Zodiac cases, the Stine murder is the one which has the least amount of police records released. Zelms was closest to the paassenger, and would have had a better look. He must have written a statement of what he saw. True, he was killed in the line of duty a few months later, but he still should have written something like Foulke did. Does anyone know if such a statement exists from Zelms? I am not suprised that psychiatrists and probably other doctor specialties live there. It has to be upper middle class professionals. In the hangout/bay area, I will have to post the wealthiest area, Pacific Heights, where Dianne Feinstein, Willie Brown and other millionaires live. It is from the same year – 1969. bayarea60s, Subject: Z’s Plan Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:38 pm Morf….Z was on the N. side of Jackson closest to the park, a little over a 1/2 block walk from where Foukes and Zelms saw him. Z had no idea he would within minutes of his murder of Stine, have a cop coming up his back end, and run into 2 SFPD cops who could ID him. If he had a car in the neighborhood, he would have gotten in it and been gone from the scene. Some have suggested Z then drove around to a vantage point to watch the action? He didn’t know there would be any action in the park, or anywhere else. To imagine Z driving around the neighborhood to pick out a spot to me is absurd. To think he would just sit in his car on the street, in my opinion he wouldn’t do that either. Now the empty offices around Spruce, Dr’s. etc., brings up an interesting thought. We know he was in a place where he could hear the action, he gives no indication that he could see anything. bayarea60s, Subject: Why PH? Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:46 pm I’ve always felt why Z chose PH was due to Manson. Charlie went into the richer areas of LA, and got a ton of publicity. Z, not to be outdone chose PH for that reason. Z was a media hog. Between Manson and the moon landing he had a lot of competition that summer. I think the PH scene began driving Z away from his Z persona and back to killing without bravado….It had become hotter I’m sure then he really wanted. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:47 pm So where was the nearest phone booth? I think we have really derailed this thread and there are numerous other threads this information would be better suited in. I’m afraid we might be missing some good info later when we try and search where this stuff was posted! sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:00 pm Morf, you wondered why so many names at that one address ? Some of these homes had rooms for rent, some where apts. I didn’t see all of the street numbers for Maple listed in your list, there were some in the low 200 numbers on Maple near the park. I thought that just because Zodiac was last seen on the north side of Jackson, doesn’t mean he couldn’t cross the street and go down Maple in the other direction back towards Washington ? I saw only one house in that direction that could over look the park, it was taller than the rest and had windows near the roof. It is a good idea that you check for these names in other Zodiac kill areas, but these people who lived in Santa Barbara need to be placed there closer to 1963. Like R. Hunter who’s father did live in Santa Barbara in 1963 who had a connection to Donna Lass. Myself I would be looking for someone who possibly lived in S.F., who had a connection to living or working in Vallejo /Napa/ Benicia , then see if I could connect him to Riverside or Santa Barbara. Because we know for sure he killed in Benicia, Vallejo ,Napa, then S.F. If he was a construction worker or traveling salesman , he could be anywhere at any time. If he was unable to keep a job for any length of time he could move to where ever work was. Lots of If’s ! sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:05 pm So where was the nearest phone booth? I think we have really derailed this thread and there are numerous other threads this information would be better suited in. I’m afraid we might be missing some good info later when we try and search where this stuff was posted! LOL, I think that is a valid question Tahoe. We actually looked to see where one was , but it was too far away for him to make a call . I think he knew that and that was why he felt he would have to take some evidence with him and put it in a letter instead. bayarea60s, Subject: Good Points Sandy Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:49 am I do think Z was once based in SF or worked there, only because of the mailings he did from there. The one postmark from Pleasanton always stood out to me. It always reminded me of a guy travelling from SF to LA and on his way out of town. I’ve always heard of these serials when in their killing mode will travle for long periods of time to kill. so many variables. he may have never lived in N. Ca. as far as any registry goes. As Z 3 of his 4 N. Ca. known kills, were late at night, all were on weekends. Friday could have been his travel day. Comes into Bay Area, does his thing, and splits back to wherever. That would be pretty smart. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:10 pm BA 60’s, I agree with everything you mentioned ,including the Pleasanton letter being sent on his way down south . I think he was there to see it on the front page, but had possibly another reason to go there at that time. bayarea60s, Subject: The Ultimate Irony Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:39 am I’ve thought before wouldn’t it be ironic, and really smart of Z, to commit his crimes in N. Ca. and soon thereafter migrate to S. Ca., and visa a versa. Not saying Z , or any Serial Killer would think of that, but it would sure make it hard on LE. onewhoknows, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:26 pm He had knowledge of Police systems and Police politics, and understood that if he committed his crimes in different jurisdictions that it would confuse law enforcment and that they would not co-operate well with each other, hoarding their evidence. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:36 pm He had knowledge of Police systems and Police politics, and understood that if he committed his crimes in different jurisdictions that it would confuse law enforcment and that they would not co-operate well with each other, hoarding their evidence. Exactly ! Although to hear them talk they will say they shared everything. trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:15 pm As I understand it, there was some sort of rivalry among the jurisdictions to see who would apprehend the killer. Vallejo PD was suspicions of SFPD, and none of them shared everything in regards to information. Today, things are different, thanks to computerized records and such. Nachtsider, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:01 pm He had knowledge of Police systems and Police politics, and understood that if he committed his crimes in different jurisdictions that it would confuse law enforcment and that they would not co-operate well with each other, hoarding their evidence. No evidence of this. trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:40 pm He had knowledge of Police systems and Police politics, and understood that if he committed his crimes in different jurisdictions that it would confuse law enforcment and that they would not co-operate well with each other, hoarding their evidence. No evidence of this. It is interesting to speculate what one may or may not know, it this case, pertaining to police operations. I don’t think anyone can say, for a certainty what the killer knew, let alone who he was. One reason we may get the idea that he knew something about LE procedures is that he deliberately committed his crimes in different jurisdictions. That is a fact. Whether the killer knew that officials from one jurisdiction do not mess with another is something we are not aware of, but can get the impression that the killer was smart and planned his crimes out. Beyond that, and the evidence that is known, the rest of anything about the killer is left up to guessing and opinions. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:45 pm It would seem (LB car door), Zodiac thought he commited two separate murders in "Vallejo"…so was he thinking along the lines of jurisdiction? Also, long before Avery’s revelation about CJB, LE in Napa and Riverside had communicated, and there were meetings amongst many police departments trying to solve this case. There is a newspaper article about it here at this site. Lots of top investigators got together right after Stine was killed. I do believe they truly tried and a lot of the "not sharing" was just not the case. bayarea60s, Subject: T27 Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:18 am Tahoe… I agree. I don’t think anything the individual PD’s came upon that would relate to other PD’s cases would be hidden from them. It’s easy to look back and say well they should have done this or that. Today the way info is shared is generally much better, but it was what it was back then. We can see in the video that within SFPD, there was an attitude. I don’t think it’s unique to SFPD at all. But we hear from both Foukes and Pellessetti, more or less, many things were left to the detectives to figure out. Not the first time I’ve heard that there’s animosity between the uniforms and the suits. It was what it was. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:52 am I think it was probably a lot like these message boards. There were probably just some individuals who didn’t like each other. Whether from other departments or within their own. bayarea60s, Subject: Cops Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:15 pm T27… I know a lot of my east coast cop relatives, started as uniforms, and progressed their way to suits and said it was always an issue, between cops and detectives. I don’t think any detective / cop who came upon pertinent info (which I don’t think there was ever that much of), would keep it from other PD’s. Who else did they have to bounce stuff off of, but each other? Should they have had more meetings? I don’t know, if they didn’t have anything new to share, which they could do over the phone, why meet? They could have collectively maybe came up with a rule. whatever you have in your evidence room, stays there. No taking it home for show and tell or whatever the reason. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:11 pm I have talked with 2 different cops, in two different jurisdictions investigating Zodiac, that share the opinion that Zodiac was somebody that they talked to in their investigation….Man, that makes me want to get my hands on that list of suspects & POI’s. Napa alone has a Suspect matrix of over 200 people(not including peopel cleared back in the 60’s and 70’s) trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:09 pm Interesting, but I am not surprised. Trouble is, there was not enough evidence to charge any of the suspects. bayarea60s, Subject: SFPD Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:31 am I know the number released for years that SFPD said it investigated some 2,500 people. And with all the independent PD’s along the peninsula, down to SJ, and the East Bay side, they were all on alert too. So anyone they ran into along the way, I could see that number easily being over 3,000. So I would hope somewhere in there was Z. It would be great to see the list, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:26 am Here’s the big problem as I see it. These various jurisdictions have opened and closed the case multiple times. Sometimes, it seems like one agency doesnt know what the other has done. Recently, the DOJ dropped their investigation,but its not like they gave all of their materials to SF & NAPA,so SF & NAPA doesnt know what the DOJ had. I really liked the idea of DOJ running it all,that way, all the agencies, Napa,SFPD,Vallejo,Solano even Riverside,Santa Barbara, could pull ALL of their info into one giant collection. For instance, what if there was a common suspect name turned in by NAPA,SFPD,and even RIVERSIDE….that would have to raise some eyebrows and they would likely pay special attention to a common suspect in various confirmed & unconfirmed Z crimes trainmaster, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:09 pm Morf, I take it you mean the state Department of Justice, as this was not a Federal case. Yes, having all the information would make it easier to find similar behavior between the suspects, narrow it down and perhaps put some of them who match patterns under observation. Also with the complete list, the state could verify if the suspect is still around or not. morf13, Subject: Re: YES or NO Confirmed Evidence Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:22 pm Thats correct TRAIN, the CA Dept of Justice | |||||
| RE: New ALA Video | 10 Relevance | 4 years ago | Marclean | Arthur Leigh Allen | |
| Other than the lyrics , which maybe leigh wrote on the tape , there’s not much to it .”I hope you enjoy ” at 6:29 ” that Leigh speaks , yes , it’s a common speech thing , but , I didn’t fail to notice . Thanks for sharing | |||||
| New ALA Video | 10 Relevance | 4 years ago | jacob | Arthur Leigh Allen | |
| A group of siblings whose family were friends with Arthur Leigh Allen have set up a YouTube channel featuring their recollections of ALA. Today they posted a video message ALA sent to their mother. Starts at 3:23. Also a handwriting sample at 0:53. ALA uses the phrase “couple hours” which brings Zodiac’s “couple howers” to mind. | |||||
| Re: Lake Herman Road Video | 10 Relevance | 5 years ago | Russ Thompson | David Faraday & Betty Lou Jensen 12/20/68 | |
| Something that jumped out at me: the gravel turnout at LHR looks slightly lower down than the paved road itself. If it was like that in 1969, cars would be slightly ‘rolling’ down into and up out of the spot to access it. So you probably could not take it at much speed when pulling off there. I have never been to the LHR site. This is good quality video in warm, broad daylight. | |||||
| Re: Youtube embeded video not displaying | 10 Relevance | 5 years ago | CuriousCat | Tech Questions- How to load photos, etc. PLEASE READ! | |
| I’ve never been able to post a video here and didn’t think we could. | |||||
| Suspect Of The Day Video: Louie Myers | 10 Relevance | 6 years ago | Zamantha | Attic | |
| Hi guys, Today’s video takes a look at Louie Myers. Myers had ties to several of the victims, and there is other compelling evidence against him too, however, the accusation against him came from a work colleague after Louie died. Is it possible that he was Z, or was this just another attempt to cash in? Bare in mind that no book concerning these accusations has actually been released as of yet. Hi & Welcome to ZKS – Pls search around & post in threads already started for all Topics. There’s been a thread started since 2014 on Louie Myers. If you could pls read the comments there, and your welcome to move your you tube to that thread & delete this one. That way we are more organized. You can always use the search key to find threads. Enclosed is the Louie Myers Thread- viewtopic.php?f=93&t=1412&p=15266&hilit=Louie+Myers#p15266 Pls move your post over & then delete this one, appreciate your help. Zincerely, Zamantha* | |||||
