Phillip Tucker and his wife stated Allen showed them a letter/papers with similiar symbols as the zodiac ciphers. From the mulanax report page 8 http://www.zodiackiller.com/MulanaxReport8.html

Also ALA’s sister in law said she saw the same grey box with codes in it.

Phillip Tucker and his wife stated Allen showed them a letter/papers with similiar symbols as the zodiac ciphers. From the mulanax report page 8 http://www.zodiackiller.com/MulanaxReport8.html

EXCELLENT. I just read the preceding page of that report. Philip Tucker was the recreational supervisor. Also, I just looked in the Index of Graysmith’s first book, "Zodiak" — no mention of Tucker. I do recall that ALA’s sister-in-law made mention of seeing similar symbols.

Thanks very much for your help. I am going to withdraw my comment that there is a dearth of evidence that ALA had an interest in codes and ciphers. I was mistaken.

Also ALA’s sister in law said she saw the same grey box with codes in it.

Yes, I do recall that. I believe it was mentioned in Graysmith’s "Unmasked." With TWO documented sources indicating that ALA had an interest in the types of symbols used in the Zodiac ciphers, I gladly withdraw my initial comment.

Thanks for your reply.

Karen denied seeing ciphers, and that box Allen was allegedly secretive about is likely bogus as well.

Karen denied seeing ciphers, and that box Allen was allegedly secretive about is likely bogus as well.

Tom, please refer to page 8 of the SGT Mulanax’s investigation report, wherein he describes ALA showing a paper from "a grey metal box" from his bedroom to Tucker and his wife. In the message were "various symbols similar to those used by the Zodiac in his coded messages. Symbols and code very neatly done." So, according to SGT Mulanax, in addition to ALA’s sister-in-law, we have TWO additional witnesses (the Tuckers) to the same type of information coming from the same "grey box." Page 13 of the Mulanax report is even more explicit. Tucker’s wife was taken by (showed great interest in) the code symbols on the document that ALA showed them. The document from the "grey box."

I also find that ALA was very capable of drawing very "neat" script — completely dissimilar to the sloppy handwriting evidenced in most of his handwritten letters. I’m making specific references to several of the envelopes he addressed.
Karen would have a motive for dissembling about what she initially stated about the symbols and grey box. However, the Tuckers would not have a motive to fabricate their account. QED?

The box I’m referring to is the one that allegedly made Allen do evil things when he handled the contents. I believe the origin of that fantasy is the yellow book.

The box I’m referring to is the one that allegedly made Allen do evil things when he handled the contents. I believe the origin of that fantasy is the yellow book.

OK. We’re talking about the grey box and a document that Leigh kept in that box and showed to Karen Allen and Mr. and Mrs. Tucker. In your initial response, you state, "Karen denied seeing ciphers, and that box Allen was allegedly secretive about is likely bogus as well."

As the subject line suggests, the reason I started this thread was to discuss ALA’s proficiency with or interest in ciphers. Two of the forum members have noted that there is evidence that ALA
had some level of interest in ciphers — as documented by one of the investigating detectives. If it can be proven that ALA wrote the letters that are known to be have been written by Z, then
we know that ALA wrote the ciphers and is Zodiac. Some of the letters contain (within the letters) lines of code that appear identical to other ciphers written on separate documents included with letters.
If ALA wrote the letters, he wrote the ciphers and is the ZODIAC. There are at least three (3) documented witnesses to the cipher symbols included in the document that Leigh kept in a grey metal box. According to
the Mulanax report, Leigh never provided Mrs. Tucker with a copy of the document that included the cipher symbols.

We know that ALA was a forger, a liar, a convicted sexual predator, a loner, and had the means, motive and opportunity to kill all of the victims attributed to Zodiac. There is some physical, crime scene evidence — the Wing-walker, size 10-1/2 imprint. The inability to connect ALA to any of the murders with DNA and/or fingerprints does not exclude ALA from the small set of possible Zodiacs. IMHO, the circumstantial evidentiary case that ALA was the Zodiac is far stronger than any other candidate. The circumstantial evidence that LHO had in his position cipher symbols that appeared to be similar (or the same) as those used by the Zodiac is important.

Cheney’s statements to LE is all important. IF Cheney is truthful about what ALA told him, Leigh is the Zodiac. Additionally, the fact that Cheney didn’t report seeing ALA with any ciphers or know of Leigh’s interest in codes and cryptography is strong evidence that he (Cheney) was not attempting to smear (implicate) ALA with fabricated evidence. Cheney could have easily told you that he had seen ALA with ciphers in your 2000 interview. He didn’t. Did Cheney conflate other events and have some mistaken recollections? Very likely. My larger point is that Cheney had the opportunity to connect Leigh to the ciphers and he didn’t. I suggest that if Leigh had shown him any ciphers, he would have remembered that significant fact.

The only Zodiac cipher that we know to be a true cipher was the original three-part cipher. It was basic stuff, anybody likely Zodiac’s age would have understood the fundamentals of such a substitute cipher, even Ralphie in the movie "A Christmas Story" knew how to create one.

The only Zodiac cipher that we know to be a true cipher was the original three-part cipher. It was basic stuff, anybody likely Zodiac’s age would have understood the fundamentals of such a substitute cipher, even Ralphie in the movie "A Christmas Story" knew how to create one.

I completely agree; however, that’s not the question. The question is whether or not there is evidence that Authur Leigh Allen — a prime suspect in the Zodiac killings — was interested in ciphers. We have three witnesses who suggest that he was.
The ad hoc symbols that the Zodiac used to fabricate his ciphers indicate that Zodiac was, indeed, self-taught. Some have suggested that Zodiac may have had military intelligence training in cryptology. I don’t think so. Apparently, in his brief stint in the Navy, he was trained as a medic. If you want to correspond with PMs, I’ll explain in detail why the Z ciphers have no resemblance to those used by the military or the NSA during this period.

Another curious aspect of the Zodiac ciphers is that the symbols were very carefully drawn.

Yes it is curious. While the 3 part cipher itself was meticulous the letters that went along with it were written rather hastily. The cipher was of great of importance. A hypothesis is that Zodiac set up the people with the 408 being solvable, and then made the 340 to be unsolvable. If one wants his legacy to endure that is one way of doing it. The problem is that it is nearly impossible to verify whether the 340 is real or not even with all the computing power in the world.

Some have suggested that Zodiac may have had military intelligence training in cryptology. I don’t think so.

I would like to hear your motivation.

I have never seen evidence that Allen was interested in ciphers, or created ciphers.

Of course Zodiac wouldn’t have needed any formal training to create the 408. In fact I’d be surprised if it turned out the real Zodiac had any code training.

The only Zodiac cipher that we know to be a true cipher was the original three-part cipher. It was basic stuff, anybody likely Zodiac’s age would have understood the fundamentals of such a substitute cipher, even Ralphie in the movie "A Christmas Story" knew how to create one.

I agree, but that is not the point. Within the very small set of the "best suspects," which certainly includes ALA, which ones showed an interest in codes and ciphers? We have documented evidence that Leigh was not only interested in ciphers but kept cipher elements — included in a document he wrote — in a metal container. I agree that a few other suspects also (apparently) had an interest in ciphers.

Let me beat this dead horse again. The evidence of ALA’s interest in and having created ciphers strengthens the circumstantial case that he was Zodiac. The hypothesis with the most "explanatory power" is that Authur Leigh Allen was Zodiac — especially in light of the revelations that the DNA material discovered on the envelopes and stamps was (literally) superficial and NOT removed from the adhesive material of either. The corpus of circumstantial evidence pointing to ALA is enormous. Did Graysmith use editorial license in some of his accounts? No doubt about it. Did Graysmith fabricate out of whole cloth evidence to embellish his circumstantial case against ALA? I don’t see that. Did Cheney wittingly fabricate his accounts of what he alleges Leigh told him? Where is the evidence that Cheney had a history of lying or fabrication? As I have noted in this thread, IF Cheney was attempting to frame an innocent Arthur Leigh Allen, he would have connected ALA to ciphers in his 2000 interview with you. Cheney would have played the cipher card. He didn’t.

The 2nd batch of FBI files had that "magic square" which was suggestive of ciphers:

http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=179

It’s not clear to me which person the document was attributed to. Was it ALA?