Z wrote letters confessing to all of his murders except the LB Attack. Why do you think he didn’t write or ever mention it? All the effort he put into making the hood and creating a story; I don’t understand why he never talked about that one. Curious what you guys think.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." —Sherlock Holmes
Z wrote letters confessing to all of his murders except the LB Attack. Why do you think he didn’t write or ever mention it? All the effort he put into making the hood and creating a story; I don’t understand why he never talked about that one. Curious what you guys think.
He did write, though. He wrote a note taking credit on the door of Bryan’s car. Maybe he knew he was taking a big risk by attacking in the middle of the day like that and didn’t want to draw any further scrutiny by bragging because it was the second time in a row that he left a living victim who could be used as a witness against him. Perhaps the little scorecard he left at the scene was enough for him.
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
If the police are not withholding any correspondence, then it is perfectly conceivable that Bryan Hartnell gave him all the exposure he needed. It is also possible he did converse about Lake Berryessa- it just hasn’t been deciphered yet.
I find it interesting too HGM.
Even with the car door, it seems it was somewhat questioned in the newspapers. You think he would offer something, since it was his most gruesome crime.
A couple weeks later he kills Stine and wants to prove it’s him, but still…doesn’t offer anything about the LB victims. No boasts, no tales…which is why it, very much (imo) doesn’t jibe with Cheri Jo…and the comments about her in the confession letter.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
I find it interesting too HGM.
Even with the car door, it seems it was somewhat questioned in the newspapers. You think he would offer something, since it was his most gruesome crime.
A couple weeks later he kills Stine and wants to prove it’s him, but still…doesn’t offer anything about the LB victims. No boasts, no tales…which is why it, very much (imo) doesn’t jibe with Cheri Jo…and the comments about her in the confession letter.
Z was so grandiose with his LB attack with the costume, the story, the preparations, and the note scrawled on the door; I just can’t help but ask why he didn’t talk about it in any of his confirmed letters to the press. I would assume that this attack was special to him.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." —Sherlock Holmes
I would assume that this attack was special to him.
Yes, I believe it was. He spent a lot of time there, got up close and personal with his victims and wore his special suit. Something different about this one.
He did make a phone call claiming it however, and as noted, Hartnell was around on the news telling about it. It was only about two weeks until he killed Stine, so maybe he was busy scouting out his spot for that one.
Yes, I believe it was. He spent a lot of time there, got up close and personal with his victims and wore his special suit. Something different about this one.
He did make a phone call claiming it however, and as noted, Hartnell was around on the news telling about it. It was only about two weeks until he killed Stine, so maybe he was busy scouting out his spot for that one.
I believe you’re absolutely right. It was an experimental crime, with a grand design and it’s one of the only times he interacted with his victims. I don’t think he anticipated that part very much – he probably expected Bryan and Cecelia to be passive and easily manipulated but Bryan not only kept him talking but confronted him and tried to manipulate him as well! Zodiac probably didn’t like that at all and when he found out that smart-mouthed kid he left for dead was still alive, he decided to say nothing further. No one was supposed to see him in his full glory except the dead and seeing his visage in the papers, though probably slightly thrilling, was probably also embarrassing to him. It made him feel small.
But it’s noteworthy that when he thought Bryan and Cecelia had been successfully dispatched, he sticks to his signature elements: he calls the homicide in himself and leaves an initial written communication. That anyone can doubt this was a Zodiac crime is baffling to me.
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
…when he found out that smart-mouthed kid he left for dead was still alive, he decided to say nothing further. No one was supposed to see him in his full glory except the dead and seeing his visage in the papers, though probably slightly thrilling, was probably also embarrassing to him. It made him feel small.
I agree it was most likely he didn’t mention it cos it was an embarrassment.
Now it became known that The Zodiac had to tell victims tall-tales like his prison escape and his just being there carjacking en route to Mexico. And that he admitted feeling a little nervous to Bryan.
That doesn’t fit with the dangerous, all-powerful Z he was trying to come across as in the letters. So, best to not remind anyone of the details of the LB fiasco.
(edited for: quote f-up)
Yes, I believe it was. He spent a lot of time there, got up close and personal with his victims and wore his special suit. Something different about this one.
He did make a phone call claiming it however, and as noted, Hartnell was around on the news telling about it. It was only about two weeks until he killed Stine, so maybe he was busy scouting out his spot for that one.
I believe you’re absolutely right. It was an experimental crime, with a grand design and it’s one of the only times he interacted with his victims.
I’m not so sure about experimental. I still think there is a high probability that Zodiac committed the Domingo/Edwards murders in ’63. It’s speculated they managed to get out of their bindings, Domingo possibly even fighting with him, and make a run for it. If that’s the case, Zodiac learned from his mistakes which is why he made sure Hartnell’s ropes were tight and had Shepard tie him up first.
I agree about the grand design though. There was something different about this one, just like Stine. Being the LB attack occurred in the daytime, that could explain his need for the hood, but I think it goes deeper than that. There was something ritualistic about this one. Seems he could have found some victims at night to attack if that was all he wanted.
I also wonder if this is the only time he wore the hood. We know he didn’t in the BRS and Stine attacks, and probably not in the LHR attack, but if he did commit more murders, like the Domingo/Edwards attack, as an example, he might have wore it at other times. All we really know is LB is the only one where he wore it and someone lived to tell about it.
I don’t think he anticipated that part very much – he probably expected Bryan and Cecelia to be passive and easily manipulated but Bryan not only kept him talking but confronted him and tried to manipulate him as well!
I often wonder if Hartnell intimidated him. When he stood up, at what, 6 foot 7? It must have been quite a surprise for Zodiac. And yeah, the mind games Hartnell was playing must have thrown him off too. Hartnell said he noticed Zodiac’s hands shaking when he was tying up Shepard, he was probably ready to "do his thing" and get the hell out of there.
Zodiac probably didn’t like that at all and when he found out that smart-mouthed kid he left for dead was still alive, he decided to say nothing further. No one was supposed to see him in his full glory except the dead and seeing his visage in the papers, though probably slightly thrilling, was probably also embarrassing to him. It made him feel small.
Yes, and Hartnell was rather insulting when describing Zodiac. I’m surprised Zodiac didn’t write a letter to counter that narrative, but as you say, he might have just wanted to forget about it and not have it in the newspapers. He didn’t scare Hartnell, which is what he wanted.
But it’s noteworthy that when he thought Bryan and Cecelia had been successfully dispatched, he sticks to his signature elements: he calls the homicide in himself and leaves an initial written communication. That anyone can doubt this was a Zodiac crime is baffling to me.
Agreed, despite his lack of success at killing both and possible humiliation, this has always been a signature Zodiac crime to me.
Because it was so grandiose and different is exactly why some people question it.
Mike Mageau lived.
That fact was in the paper the very next day, and subsequent days–even mentioned [Mike] "holds key to gun mystery". That didn’t embarrass Zodiac. He still wrote.
Zodiac’s actual letter was shown in the Vallejo Evening New Chronicle on August 4th. He signed off with the circle-cross. In that letter, he wrote: Aug 1 – 69. The car begins with numerical dates, then (imo) it’s almost as if he is correcting himself by doing it like it was written in the paper: Sept 27 – 69.
The phone call at LB becomes a correction as well: "…no…a double murder".
The phone call about BRS noting a double murder:
Vallejo Evening News Chronicle – July 7th.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Because it was so grandiose and different is exactly why some people question it.
Not sure why that would make them question it, the guy had a flair for the dramatic, that we know.
Mike Mageau lived.
That fact was in the paper the very next day, and subsequent days–even mentioned [Mike] "holds key to gun mystery". That didn’t embarrass Zodiac. He still wrote.
There is some difference though, he struck terror into Mageau, and Mageau basically clammed up afterwards. Hartnell did TV interviews. I think it’s probably as simple as Hartnell gave him the publicity and attention he craved and also he was busy planning and carrying out the Stine attack.
Hey Tahoe. I always thought it interesting how Bryan Hartnell in spite of having a stranger wearing an odd hood and pointing a pistol at him, never really took him as a threat. I mean, obviously he was a threat but he thought of it as a bizarre robbery and figured he could get a nice Sociology paper out of the experience.
I think this speaks to who Z was under the mask. Somebody who you wouldn’t take serious. I don’t know about you but sometimes in life, I hear people speaking to me and the way they speak (or voice) I just can’t listen to them or take them serious. I know that sounds bad but I’m sure we can all relate.
What do you think?
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." —Sherlock Holmes
Because it was so grandiose and different is exactly why some people question it.
Not sure why that would make them question it, the guy had a flair for the dramatic, that we know.
Not when it came to the (other) attacks themselves. The writing yes, which is why the lack of it is questioned.
Hey Tahoe. I always thought it interesting how Bryan Hartnell in spite of having a stranger wearing an odd hood and pointing a pistol at him, never really took him as a threat. I mean, obviously he was a threat but he thought of it as a bizarre robbery and figured he could get a nice Sociology paper out of the experience.
I think this speaks to who Z was under the mask. Somebody who you wouldn’t take serious. I don’t know about you but sometimes in life, I hear people speaking to me and the way they speak (or voice) I just can’t listen to them or take them serious. I know that sounds bad but I’m sure we can all relate.
What do you think?
I go back and forth. I don’t think most people would ever think what happened to Bryan and Cecelia would happen–including them. Yes, the man made it sound like they would just be robbed, but how could they not have seen the knife and clothesline too? That whole get-up would have scared the crap out of me! It is somewhat telling that Bryan thought he could outwit him, but maybe Bryan was just a cocky college guy.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Not when it came to the (other) attacks themselves.
Stine’s murder was pretty darned dramatic. We don’t know what he did at LHR, we wouldn’t have known what he did at LB if both had died immediately.
The writing yes, which is why the lack of it is questioned.
The letters were a reflection of his personality.
He did his writing concerning LB on the door of Hartnell’s car, ’nuff said in his mind most likely. I do think he was referring to the LB attack when he said he was "the man who did in the people in the North Bay Area".
That whole get-up would have scared the crap out of me!
Same here. I said in another thread here if I saw that coming at me he would have had to shoot me in the back when I was running away because that would have scared the crap out of me. I understand Zodiac wasn’t well known like he is now but still, seeing that get up I think I would have known it wasn’t just a robbery.
It is somewhat telling that Bryan thought he could outwit him, but maybe Bryan was just a cocky college guy.
He kept his cool and tried to think his way out of the situation. I would have been pissing my pants. Men younger than Bryan was at the time have led armies. Some guys have it, some don’t.
I’ve always wondered if Zodiac could hear Bryan and Cecelia calling out to the fisherman ?
Does anyone know if Bryan’s car could be seen from the crime scene ?
