It would make sense if "zodiac" was actually a few people working together, but the people would have to know each other and have real connections to one another, I mean, it can’t be a different killer for each crime with these killers not knowing each other or being connected in some way…

Generally I think this is very true. I don’t think you can separate LHR, BRS, and PH. Same letter writer with these 3 crimes, details only the killer would know. Could it have been one single writer and an accomplice or two doing the shooting? Possible although I tend to doubt that.

However, LB separates out nicely from the 3 shootings. No letters claim it. And there is no reason why the stabber at LB would need to know the shooter/letter writer from the other killings.

As far as the car door and handwriting experts confirming it to be Z… think of the body position required to write on the side of a car door. Imagine drawing those large letters, much larger than those written in a letter, while bending down or squatting. Would a person’s writing look the same?

If entire possible Z letters are inconclusive, how could the very small sample on the car door be considered conclusive?

Also, at BRS, shots were heard at 12:10 AM on July 5, and the call from Z came in to police at 12:40 AM. The crime was committed on July 5, 1969. However, the letter-writer said that it had happened on July 4 and this was published in the papers. Meaning, people reading Zodiac’s letters thought BRS happened on July 4.

So why did the killer at LB write 7-4-69? Well, either he was letter-writer Z and was being consistent, or he was some unrelated psycho wanting to kill in the name of Zodiac and thought it was July 4 from Z’s published letters. Here’s the thing though – while letter writer Z was sloppy with his dates, saying LHR which happened on Dec. 20 was at Christmass and BRS which happened on July 5 was July 4, the guy at LB was precise in noting the time of the LB attack at 6:30. So why is letter writer Z missing the time of his killings by days, while the killer at LB is precise in the time, down to the half-hour?

And for that matter, the stabber at LB defines LHR by exact date rather than simply Christmass.

Some excellent points Marshall. Especially the handwriting exemplar of the car door.

Usually the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. I just can’t believe multiple people working together, or multiple people working separately (but copying eachother) could have pulled this off. There are so many things that would need to go just right for it to have turned out the way it did, and above all, to remain unsolved for this long. No, I strongly am of the opinion that there has always been only one person who knows exactly what Zodiac did and thought, at least when it comes to the canonical cases.

There are many details here and there that seem "out of place" for Zodiac but in my opinion they’re not enough to facilitate there having been multiple people involved. I think that if Zodiac would have been solved, the lack of letter about Berryessa attack would just be one of the details nobody even notices because he did write on the car door after all. There is probably a lot of stuff like that, small deviations from the usual pattern, with serial killers whose identities have been solved, just like there is with regular people.

You are right, by all means the "individuals working together" theory is a difficult one…

Also, at BRS, shots were heard at 12:10 AM on July 5, and the call from Z came in to police at 12:40 AM. The crime was committed on July 5, 1969. However, the letter-writer said that it had happened on July 4 and this was published in the papers. Meaning, people reading Zodiac’s letters thought BRS happened on July 4.

So why did the killer at LB write 7-4-69?

I am certain that July fourth 1969 was the intended date for the homicide, and even though the clock had crept past midnight, zodiac was still considering the date to be the fourth.

…Mike says that they had been followed "all over the place", so it would seem zodiac had intended to shoot Darlene much earlier, but the opportunity did not arrive until after 12am.

I did hear on the Criminology Podcast Season 1 with Morf that there are in fact "Official Zodiac Letters" never released. So maybe he mentioned LB in one of those? Thoughts?

By the way: everyone should listen to that podcast, it’s excellent and informative.

Also, at BRS, shots were heard at 12:10 AM on July 5, and the call from Z came in to police at 12:40 AM. The crime was committed on July 5, 1969. However, the letter-writer said that it had happened on July 4 and this was published in the papers. Meaning, people reading Zodiac’s letters thought BRS happened on July 4.

So why did the killer at LB write 7-4-69?

I am certain that July fourth 1969 was the intended date for the homicide, and even though the clock had crept past midnight, zodiac was still considering the date to be the fourth.

My point is that letter-writer and shooter Z was very imprecise when describing the dates/times of his attacks. He references holidays that were close enough that everyone would be able to make the connection.

There is a definite distinction, I think, between these three:
July 4th, 1969
7-4-69
The 4th of July

The first two reference specific dates. The third is the name we have given our national holiday, sometimes called Independence Day.

Whether Zodiac had a clock in his car or a watch on his wrist, and knew what time and day he had killed Darlene, or not, it did not matter, and in that we agree. Fourth of July, close enough. Christmass, well, off by 5 days but again, close enough. Point is, letter-writer Z was imprecise.

The car door at LB is the opposite. Very precise. Not Christmass but the specific date, 12-20-68. Not the holiday, the 4th of July, but the date 7-4-69. And with the crime just committed, not only the date but the time, down to the half-hour.

By the way, this is why I think attaching too much significance to the dates of the murders (full moons or high tides or whatever significance people may attach) is misguided. Referring to LHR, his first, as having happened Last Christmass is not only the difference of 5 days, it is the difference between Sagittarius and Capricorn. Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.

It’s almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

…It’s almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

Oooh. That’s good.

Also, at BRS, shots were heard at 12:10 AM on July 5, and the call from Z came in to police at 12:40 AM. The crime was committed on July 5, 1969. However, the letter-writer said that it had happened on July 4 and this was published in the papers. Meaning, people reading Zodiac’s letters thought BRS happened on July 4.

So why did the killer at LB write 7-4-69?

I am certain that July fourth 1969 was the intended date for the homicide, and even though the clock had crept past midnight, zodiac was still considering the date to be the fourth.

My point is that letter-writer and shooter Z was very imprecise when describing the dates/times of his attacks. He references holidays that were close enough that everyone would be able to make the connection.

There is a definite distinction, I think, between these three:
July 4th, 1969
7-4-69
The 4th of July

The first two reference specific dates. The third is the name we have given our national holiday, sometimes called Independence Day.

Whether Zodiac had a clock in his car or a watch on his wrist, and knew what time and day he had killed Darlene, or not, it did not matter, and in that we agree. Fourth of July, close enough. Christmass, well, off by 5 days but again, close enough. Point is, letter-writer Z was imprecise.

The car door at LB is the opposite. Very precise. Not Christmass but the specific date, 12-20-68. Not the holiday, the 4th of July, but the date 7-4-69. And with the crime just committed, not only the date but the time, down to the half-hour.

By the way, this is why I think attaching too much significance to the dates of the murders (full moons or high tides or whatever significance people may attach) is misguided. Referring to LHR, his first, as having happened Last Christmass is not only the difference of 5 days, it is the difference between Sagittarius and Capricorn. Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.

It’s almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

I get your point, the door was precise and the letters to the press were general in describing the dates. …what is the significance here?

Also, The sequence of gunshots remembered by Michael Mageau and George Bryant differ, if you listen to Bryant it was after midnight (though he had heard what he thought were fireworks prior), if you listen to Mike, judging by the time they had arrived in the park the shots would have been fired before 12am.

On another point:

I think that the "13 moon calender" connection is real and was intentional. First, the symbol for a "dali day" is identical to the "zodiac symbol", next, all 4 confirmed zodiac crimes, as well as donna lass, were all committed on dali days, the odds of this being coincidence are astronomical.

December 20, 1968 = dali day
July 4, 1969 = dali day
September 27, 1969 = dali day
October 11, 1969 = dali day
*September 6, 1970 = dali day

This is why I feel that zodiac intended To kill Darlene on the 4th of July, rather than the 5th. …if the clock crept past midnight I still think he counted the kill as on the 4th.

By the way, this is why I think attaching too much significance to the dates of the murders (full moons or high tides or whatever significance people may attach) is misguided. Referring to LHR, his first, as having happened Last Christmass is not only the difference of 5 days, it is the difference between Sagittarius and Capricorn. Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific

I get your point, the door was precise and the letters to the press were general in describing the dates…

I feel the dates were significant in correlation to the "13 moon clander"
http://spacestationplaza.com/calendar.p … &submit=go

December 20, 1968 = dali day
July 4, 1969 = dali day
September 27, 1969 = dali day
October 11, 1969 = dali day
*September 6, 1970 = dali day

The odds of this being coincidence are insane …

Edit: the symbol for dali day and the symbol which zodiac chose being identical seems beyond coincidence as well… but who knows

Following the True Moon Calendar/Deli days theory, I still believe the Zodiac was in a kind of rush when he killed Paul Stine. Maybe he knew he couldn’t commit another murder on a Deli day before long due to personal obligations or something, and obviously he felt the need to rip pieces of poor Stine’s shirt because that murder didn’t really have his mark on it and he knew journalists and the police alike thought he claimed murders that weren’t actually his own. OR, or, he just stuck to what he said in one of his letters (if I’m not mistaken) about changing his modus operandi to baffle the police, who knows, but I’d go with the former hypothesis.
Also, the frequency of his crimes increased, especially if one considers the ’63 Domingos and the ’66 Bates attacks to be Zodiac’s, along with the abduction of Kathleen Johns. More than 3 years between his first 2 murders, then 2 years until LHR, then barely 8 months until BRS and that’s when he starts striking more and more often with 5 attacks in just 14 months. What could be the reason to that?

Getting back to the original subject, it remains true that he never mentioned LB in his letters and postcards. I don’t think this was because Hartnell survived and the Zodiac just decided to act as if this attack never existed as a result, because I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun"). After all, Mageau survived as well and Z still wrote about this attack in his letters (I think? I admit I’m not good with the letters timeline/contents, my bad). Which raises another question: why did he never make sure his victims were actually dead? He did shot Stine and Faraday in the head so they didn’t stand a chance, he could have done the same with his other victims. What kind of so-called killer bragging about being such so much is going to show such lack of "professionalism"?

Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.

It’s almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

Or he just killed two people in broad daylight and was truncating his scorecard rather than blowing his escape by spending any more time than he needed to in vandalizing a car door (which is also a crime, something that anyone happening along by could easily see him committing).

Following the True Moon Calendar/Deli days theory, I still believe the Zodiac was in a kind of rush when he killed Paul Stine. Maybe he knew he couldn’t commit another murder on a Deli day

Someone is going to have to show that Dali day calander was around in Zodiac’s time before I put any stock into it because I can’t find any reference to it that isn’t recent.

obviously he felt the need to rip pieces of poor Stine’s shirt because that murder didn’t really have his mark on it and he knew journalists and the police alike thought he claimed murders that weren’t actually his own. OR, or, he just stuck to what he said in one of his letters (if I’m not mistaken) about changing his modus operandi to baffle the police, who knows, but I’d go with the former hypothesis.

I think Stine was his way of punching the police right in the nose. Seems much of what Zodiac was about was embarrassing the police. To walk into their turf in the middle of a large city to "do his thing" must have given him immense satisfaction. It was brazen as hell and might be, in his mind, his crowing achievement. Might be why he stopped killing or at least stopped talking about his other killings. He had proved his point.

Also, the frequency of his crimes increased, especially if one considers the ’63 Domingos and the ’66 Bates attacks to be Zodiac’s, along with the abduction of Kathleen Johns. More than 3 years between his first 2 murders, then 2 years until LHR, then barely 8 months until BRS and that’s when he starts striking more and more often with 5 attacks in just 14 months. What could be the reason to that?

Could be a lot of reasons but he could have committed other murders we don’t know about. There’s an attack in San Diego about a year after the Domingos/Edwards murders that seems it could be his work, quite a few others also. When he spoke about the CJB murder he did say "there are a hell of a lot more down there". That might be BS, might be the truth. It’s reasonably certain he claimed murders/crimes he didn’t commit.

Getting back to the original subject, it remains true that he never mentioned LB in his letters and postcards.

True, but he did leave his calling card with the door and phone call.

I don’t think this was because Hartnell survived and the Zodiac just decided to act as if this attack never existed as a result,

I still think Hartnell intimidated him and threw him for a loop. He expected him to be scared stiff but he wasn’t. He might have wanted to just move on from that one.

because I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").

Seems that way. He always attacked the men first then went for the women. I think he knew the men could be a threat, especially if he did commit the Domingos/Edwards murders as it’s believe Domingos fought him. I’m not sure women were the main target however, it might just be that after he rendered the men unable to fight he simply had more time to deal with the women.

But then, the CJB confession letter says "I’m stalking your girls", so there seems to be something to it being about women. He probably had a hard time finding women out alone without a man around.

Which raises another question: why did he never make sure his victims were actually dead? He did shot Stine and Faraday in the head so they didn’t stand a chance, he could have done the same with his other victims. What kind of so-called killer bragging about being such so much is going to show such lack of "professionalism"?

I don’t think killing was his ultimate goal, just part of it. I think it was more important to him to ridicule the police.

And he also shot Mageau in the head, probably assumed he would die. Mageau was damn lucky to live, Zodiac intended for that head shot to be a kill shot.

…I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").

I never quite understand this line of thinking.

Mike Mageau and Hartnell were stabbed numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.

If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario–not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.

I never quite understand this line of thinking.

He shot the hell out of Mike Mageau and stabbed Hartnell numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.

If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario–not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.

I agree. His issues were with humanity.

@CuriousCat:
-Can’t seem to find anything about the date of creation for this calendar, but I still wonder what are the chances all "official" Z attacks come out as a Deli. Well…
-Yeah, he definitely had beef with the cops and to me he definitely had a criminal record. But actually the great majority of suspects did. And so finally he didn’t like cops AND women, must have been an adorable guy…
-We know he was a liar and he liked to brag a lot about himself, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he claimed other guys’ "works" as his own. What bugs me though is the Donna Lass case. Why did he hide the body? As a way to form a riddle game with the police?
-All in all, I take it he was a rather clumsy killer, way less self-assured during his attacks than in his letter (as you more or less noted), would seize opportunities on the fly most of the time. Not sure he was such an organized killer.