This was a good long thread at the old forum, it got into a number of sub-topics and off topics, but thought it was worth carrying over some of the most relevant posts. Maybe we can develop some new thoughts or information.
Very special thanks to PORTOFLEITH. She found this image from the Cold Case Files TV show. PORT is one of the top researchers in the EAR/ONS case, and joined here at my invitation because she wanted to learn more about the Zodiac case in general and in particular the possibility that the Zodiac could be tied to EAR/ONS.
Maybe this has been posted somewhere else before, all I can say is that it is NEW to me! I have never seen it, so my guess is many of you have never seen it.
It appears to perhaps be a larger rough draft of the police sketch (or some sketch) of the Zodiac in costume at Lake Berryessa? It appears to have notes from the police sketch artist, probably reflecting his interview with Mr. Hartnell?
Many interesting things to see and read here!
Port asked: Is it implying that Zodiac had a big stomach or was wearing rope?
AK Wilks: Hartnell first said he thought the man had a large stomach, but then said it may have been the jacket was just puffed up, or that he had something under the jacket.
Mageau said Zodiac weighed 160 pounds, as did Kathleen Johns. Officer Fouke said the man he saw was 100 pounds lighter than Arthur Leigh Allen, who weighed 250 pounds. In the 2 disc Directors Cut of David Fincher’s "Zodiac", there are two excellent documentaries. In one of them, I think the one on Allen, Officer Fouke says that Allen weighed "100 pounds more" than the man he saw that night. On the first police report Fouke’s lowest estimate was 180 pounds. Allen’s driver license from the late 1960’s says he weighs "230 pounds", and I think a later license said "250 pounds", and he did get heavier with age. I don’t know what picture of Allen Fouke looked at, if Fouke thought Allen was 260 to 270 pounds in the picture, than Fouke’s estimate that the man he saw was 100 pounds less is only giving a somewhat smaller weight guess than he first did, maybe around 160 to 170 instead of his original 180. Generally memories closer in time to an event or more accurate.
Mageau first said 160 pounds, as did Kathleen Johns, and they were closer to "Zodiac" than Fouke
The issue of how much Zodiac weighed has been debated. Part of the problem may be that Graysmith pumped up Z weight estimates to match Allen, and printed only those higher estimates, while ignoring or downplaying the lower estimates. But there are estimates of Zodiac weighing 160 pounds, but also of a heavier Zodiac of 180 to 200 pounds. It is a legitimate debate, and it raises the issue of Zodiac disguising himself to look heavier. I don’t really want to renew the debate here too much, unless someone has new information or a fresh take on it.
Port: I found the comment to mean he may have had rope coiled around his middle. Can you read any of the other comments?
AK Wilks: Yes it does look like it may say "rope". On further look, I am not sure. It may say something else.
What do others think? What else stands out in these images and notes?
Have people seen this sketch before?
I never saw it before and I think it may have several interesting clues in the form of the sketch and the notes.
I am still studying it. It is hard to read the writing.
Does it say "ROPE" or something else?
Does it show Zodiac wearing gloves? And holding a gun in his right hand, with a knife sheath on his left side? Can anyone make out all the writing?
Any thoughts are welcome.
JEM: Thanks, Port!!!
Looks like BIG STOMACH could be rope
Also says "Blk.gloves" near Z’s right hand.
tucked
hand out stretched
Blue-steel ?? – auto-matic pistol
open flap?
Blk. gloves
Dark hair showing?
flat? w/stitching
clip on sunglasses
almost to waist
pleated slacks
black ?? about foot long knife
(3) 2 1/2 "
1" x 12" wood sheath
3" x 3" SYMBOL sewn on ??
BIG STOMACH could be rope
?? ?? on? out of jacket
?? – can’t read this word
? – my guess
AK WILKS:
AUTHUSER: Starting at the upper left and going down the left side I see:
Hand out stretched
Blue-steel semi-auto-matic pistol
Open flap
Blk. gloves (Blk = black?)
Upper right and going down the right side I see:
Dark hair showing
Flat w/stitching
Clip on sunglasses
Almost to waist
Pleated slacks
3" x 3" SYMBOL sewn on shirt ????ing
Black ????? foot long knife
(3) 2 1/2 ‘ [pieces of rope?] (Note the foot mark instead of inches)
1" x 12" wood sheath
BIG STOMACH could be rope
ropes by side on out[side] of jacket
Words in brackets were added for readability.
SANDY BETTS: The word that looks like "rope" I believe is lose, ( for the word loose)I can make out the L O S.
Words missing from the right side I think were "lose clothing" Meaning that the large stomach could have been just that his clothes were loose/ bulky.
What is missing from this drawing, which I have seen many times, is in the upper right hand side. It is showing the box like drawing, but the words looked like a "paper sack" are missing !!!!!!!
Very important to me, are those words "Paper sack".
This drawing is in the Lake Berryessa report.
Zam this is what I mentioned to you the other day , I need a better copy of this. drawing. One with out the edges missing, I am sure you know why ?
NIN: 
Same p, open – rope
It says "rope", if you ask me.
BRUCE3: The only real -and I say this with caution- evidence that Z had on black gloves as "Juan"* the police artist must have interviewed BH for this sketch.
Although BH seemed to have been overheard saying -when he was found -that the hooded man ‘had gloves on’ as reported in one PD report.Later,in the hospital while under sedation he seems to have forgotten or was ‘not sure’ if the perp wore gloves.
I speculated years ago in posts that the black gloves found in Stines cab may have been the ones Z wore at LB. But this was only a thought. No proof whatsoever.
The "flap" as in some LBPD reports and there are several some don’t have or use is the gun holster.
"Big stomach" refers to BH’s doubts as to what caused the ‘pooch’as (or ‘air-filled’)he called it in Z’s jacket was due to a bunch of ‘rope/s’ concealed there even though he thought they were alongside his waist. I think it’s ropes not lose or loose. The bulk of the ‘ropes’if inside jacket could have made it seem the perp had a ‘large or big stomach.’
‘Black’ hair lucius ? It’s "dark" hair and which BH said in several reports was "dark brown."
Sandy,
The top of the hood or ‘box’ design you speak of is sketched to the top right, but not expressed in words unless it is beyond the border. You can see (like a?)’paper’ bag beyond the border? I think the ‘model’ or what it was built or constructed from was a grad’ cap.They are square at the top. This could mean Z’s true height was blurred as there was probably some three inches from his crown to the top of the hood. BH went from 5’8" to 6ft.This could be the reason and that he was on the ground most of time nervous, and with Z, as he said, ‘shifting back and forth’as though Z was ‘nervous.’
‘Flat with stitching’ referring to how the hood was formed by ‘stitching’ i.e. sewn? Of course the black bib was flat and the symbol was stitched or sewn too.
‘Black wool shirt’ and ‘sewn on stitching’ the symbol?
The three girls at LB saw a man with black short sleeves knitted at the end sweatshirt. Rayfield saw a man wearing a dark long sleeved shirt with red in the cloth.
*Whose first name is to the right of his ‘sketch’-I think possibly his last name or Gonzales is below, but is cut out by border. Either way he is using his first name to designate the artist.
[Note: Mike R suggests this may have been done by Juan Morales, who did the SFPD sketch – AK]
MODERATOR
Here is the sketch by Juan Morales that Mike R is referring to, it was copied from the book "Images of America: Napa County Police by Todd Schulman.
I think that Mike R is correct in thinking that it was Morales who drew the image at the top of the post. It was probably a rough sketched preliminary drawing.
I think that Mike R is correct in thinking that it was Morales who drew the image at the top of the post. It was probably a rough sketched preliminary drawing.
I agree. For sure Juan Morales. With the "Juan sketch" and the final composite…no doubt.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Hi-
Last year I had high hopes of getting a lot of good info out of Morales. He has been living off the grid outside the US for years but a police source of mine tracked him down. (No, he is not living off the grid because of any fear of the Zodiac coming after him!) I know they had one conversation about a year ago but my source reported that Juan’s memory did not seem all that good. I think he found a way "to keel a" lot of his memories, if you catch my drift, LOL!
Mike
Mike Rodelli
Author, The Hunt for Zodiac; 3.9 stars on Amazon and
In The Shadow of Mt. Diablo: The Shocking True Identity of the Zodiac Killer, a second edition in print format. 4.3 Amazon stars and great Editorial reviews. Twitter:@mikerodelli
Here it is without the top missing that says papersack !
right hand stretched out
blue steel semiautomatic pistol
black gloves
green?
1/2 boots tacked
black wool shirt
sewn on 3×3” symbol
1×12” wooden sheath
big stomach could be ropes?
…? out of jacket
flat with stitching (hood)
papersack
dark hair sha..ing?
clip on sunglasses
almost ? pleated ?
..the sketch obviously shows that Z was right-handed. Also that he had worn gloves. Most interestingly it confirms Sandy Bett’s statement that the hood she had found actually was out of paper rather than textile. We therefore may assume that her statement is credible, and, that the stuff left in her car may very well be authentic.
QT
*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*
Thank you QT, Still it is going to be hard for most to believe that the Zodiac or someone very close to him put that costume in my car. The sad thing about all of this is, had I been believed years ago, lives that I truly believe were taken by this monster may have been saved.
No one has stopped to think that if I was making up a story about what was put in my car, why would I make it sound different than what was described in the newspapers ?
If there is anyway at all that we can find out the name of the man in the picture I took , we can then get a paper trail on him and see just where he has lived?
I know that you are very good at investigating ,if you have time to look into the unsolved murders of 12 females starting in the late 80’s through mid 90’s murdered in Pittsburg/ Antioch Ca.
The profiler in that case said the killer was a hater of females. Some were strangeled others stabbed, none were "raped or robbed".
I mentioned before that I spoke to one of the girls who got away from the killer, she ID’d my suspect and said he pulled out a long knife from under the front seat of his truck, she jumped out at a stop light. He tried to stop her by grabbing her long hair and her leather jacket that she was wearing. She slipped out of the jacket and lost a hunk of her hair. Thank goodness she did report it to Pittsburg PD. They are very interested in knowing his name. I just found out that she is still alive, even after many attempts of him trying to get her ( after all she was an witness to seeing the killer). Pittsburg PD told me they have another witness who survived his knife attack. She was beaten, stabbed , her throat was cut, he threw her body in a port -a – potty at a "construction" sight.
I gave them his picture when they came to interview me, a day or two later, they called me back and asked me to give them every license plate number I have for him . Did they show the other witness that picture and she ID’d him as well, is why they called me back? I don’t know, my guess is they did. I do believe Zodiac worked in construction, that witness I found said he looked like he worked in Construction, that is why she felt it was safe to have a "date" with. Hookers are easy prey for serial killer’s, zodiac is much older now and this could be why he went after these girl’s. I heard he left a note with the body of one , I would like to see that note !
I believe this is graysmiths drawing of z. wonder if he drew the holster after or before seeing the pic of Arthur Allens draw with the guns ammo knife and holster.
Not sure if that’s an unusual holster or not.. We don’t have them so don’t really know anything about them . But they are strikingly similar. Not like a Cowboys. Need a few extra seconds for a quick draw.. If this has been done to death before lets quickly move on.
My side by side pics did not load ( too large) mmmm
Edit again .. Can’t get it to load
Side by side graysmiths drawing and Arthur’s holster
I believe this is graysmiths drawing of z. wonder if he drew the holster after or before seeing the pic of Arthur Allens draw with the guns ammo knife and holster.
Not sure if that’s an unusual holster or not.. We don’t have them so don’t really know anything about them . But they are strikingly similar. Not like a Cowboys. Need a few extra seconds for a quick draw.. If this has been done to death before lets quickly move on.My side by side pics did not load ( too large) mmmm
Edit again .. Can’t get it to load
There were other police artist besides Morales , Napa had their own police artist "Robert McKenzie". I believe that is who drew it and not a artist from SFPD who had no interest in the Napa case and still don’t.
Ken Narlow asked McKenzie to draw the Lake Berryessa composite ,why wouldn’t he be the one to do the paper sack drawing ?
Graysmith could have seen that drawing and copied it for the one in his book?
The holster in the drawing looks pretty common to me, ( I have a few) if Art Allen had one that was somewhat like it , I believe that it would be just a coincidence. ( Art Allen was proven not to be the Zodiac )
The drawing seems to me as if the artist sat next to Hartnell and asked him to describe everything as he saw it.
That would have been Napa’s case to do not SFPD.
When I spoke to Juan Morales by phone in Jan.1990, ( He just happened to be the officer who answered the phone when I called that evening ) he talked to me about being the artist for the San Francisco composites and the changes that he made, he didn’t mention to me that he did any drawings for Napa .
He also told me that two of their officers saw and" spoke" to Zodiac the night of the Stine shooting and that was why the change was made after the first drawing.
Sandy, I posted this image above but without the caption. I do believe that Juan Morales was the person who made the drawing of Zodiac in his hood at the beginning of the post. I believe that it was a preliminary drawing for the finished product which appeared in the book that I sourced in the image. Morales signed the drawing, the same as he did the SF Zodiac composite. Todd Shulman who was the primary author of the book is a detective with Napa PD.
Note the rumpled look to the top of the hood and the overall style of the drawing. It sure looks to me like the same artist. Additionally, the only handwriting I have seen of Graymith’s is printing, I do not think I have ever seen him write in cursive handwriting.
The drawing I posted up of the holster is by graysmith. Not sure what year he drew it. Just a bit strange that it’s the exact same style as the one in Arthur’s draw.. I probably picked the wrong thread for this post.
Sandy, I posted this image above but without the caption. I do believe that Juan Morales was the person who made the drawing of Zodiac in his hood at the beginning of the post. I believe that it was a preliminary drawing for the finished product which appeared in the book that I sourced in the image. Morales signed the drawing, the same as he did the SF Zodiac composite. Todd Shulman who was the primary author of the book is a detective with Napa PD.
Note the rumpled look to the top of the hood and the overall style of the drawing. It sure looks to me like the same artist. Additionally, the only handwriting I have seen of Graymith’s is printing, I do not think I have ever seen him write in cursive handwriting.
Thanks Seagull , All of the hooded drawings do look very alike to me to, even Graysmiths .
Except the one with all of the worded descriptions, that one looks a bit different to me, I still don’t see where Morales signed that one , could you highlight it please ?
Morales drew the rumbled hooded part of his drawing much taller in his picture than the one I am posting about.
Could they have all copied each others drawing ?
Thanks again for all of the information you provide to us all.
PS If I would have drawn it, I wouldn’t put the glasses where the killers forehead should have been, or give it the extremely long looking neck.
That being said,the hood could have made Z look taller than he was .
Thanks for posting that Seagull. Definitely less menacing than Graysmith’s version. I see too the gloves were omitted.
Reminiscent of Cousin Itt. 
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
