3/18/10
The girls: 28/30/40 years old. Dark hair/black hair. Neatly combed.
Bryan: 20/30. Dark hair. Combed.
The girls: dark pants, dark pull over shirt, about 200-220lbs/black sweater shirt, BUNCHED UP IN FRONT.
Bryan: stomach hanging over trousers, dark pants/shirt/jacket, around 225-250. (note..Bryan never actually saw his stomach.)
One of the girls thought she saw a "white belt around his back", but it possibly was a t-shirt hanging out. (I believe this was the clothesline)
Bryan:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html
**Wouldn’t you wear your t-shirt UNDER your shirt/sweather? Not too many people walking around in dark trousers and dark sweater/shirts while others are sun-bathing. One description had the shirt as black with red in it. Convenient if trying to cover-up blood.
We KNOW there was a guy creeping around the shoreline who pretty much fit Bryan’s description.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Bryan Hartnell interview with LE, September 28, 1969
Both say "COMBED"…
http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html
The Girls Report: "Straight, dark hair, neatly combed".
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Can anyone who is good with Google earth, post a photo here of the scene of the attack, and the spot where the gils saw this guy? How far apart were the two spots?
Here is a map with the app. locations of the 3 girls (A&W stand, then 2 miles North parking, they were somewhere closer to the beach), the Dr and the son (can only determine the location in relation to Knoxville road, they might have been closer to the beach), and the crime location:
3/22/10
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
The first girl interviewed states they arrived around 3:30. About 30 later they saw the guy and he watched them for about 45 minutes. He was seen observing them from the trees. It’s mentioned he walked "from south to north"….like with Bryan & Cecelia.
So 4:45 ish.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport9.html 3/22/10
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
3/22/10
Thanks for the thoughts everyone. The problem is that we dont know for sure if the guy they saw was zodiac. The guy they saw looked nothing like the Stine Zodiac sketch, and looked alot younger,IMO.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
3/23/10
Did he want to be seen by the 3 girls earlier in the afternoon and by the father and son at around 6:30?? Think alibi, just in case..2 cars? That might be an explanation why he was there (if it was Z) earlier in the day, then disappeared, then launched his attack, wrote down the – wrong – time, used the 2nd car..moves the car (he would be anywhere much faster with car), thinking he will be okay as park headquarter was located South of him..makes sure he is being viewed (again).
That’s when the hood really kicks in, since now he has an alibi -just in case- and he would not be recognized in case of survivors. Just saying.
-Nin
3/24/10
The girls saw the guy at the Lake, let’s be honest any guy spending 40 odd minutes and more hiding in amongst trees and in general creeping around the area is not exhibiting normal behaviour. He had on the same clothes minus jacket as described by the doctor and his son nearly two hours later, near the crime scene, walking between the road and the lake, so again he was amongst the trees.
On spotting the doctor and his son, with gun he goes in the opposite direction, he was avoiding them, given the time scale when they saw him, I believe he had already carried out the LB attack, I think he was coming away from the crime scene.I also think that he wrote the time on the door later than the actual attack took place. 6.30 instead of say even ten minutes earlier, gives him time to place himself further away from the crime scene.
A lot of the info makes me believe that the guy the girls saw was the killer. There is a big discrepency between the ages and general description of the LB and PH attackers. The girls at LB more or less decide on 30 for the age the same as the doctor and his son. At PH we have a higher bracket as much as 45.
I used the Flashface program (not great, can’t shade and what have you) to come up with a general representation of the LB attacker with and without the glasses. I tried to include the basic features as in round face, round eyes and hair.
/ and with glasses on http://img522.imageshack.us/i/lbcomprem … asses.jpg/
Their not perfect and I have no witnesses to look them over but I think compared next to the Stine composite, even in basic descriptions they are very different.
The attacker of Paul Hom sounds more like the guy that the girls saw at LB , described by the cabbie as mid twenties. Thats why the PH composite to me is confusing, we are told it was done by the kids yet features drawn in like the wrinkled forehead, eyes they saw that from across a darkened street from some distance.Look at Ricardo’s video on You Tube. I personally am thinking that the Stine composite is not all that reliable. The girls and the doctor got a much better look and I do believe the guy that killed Cecillia was the same guy that they saw and they got a much better look in broad daylight.
Edit: I think he was also comfortable with LB, when the doctors son David saw him he was not carrying anything, no sign of holster or scabard etc, I think he had probably been hiding them away from the attack. Poss in anticipation of the victims being discovered and poss roadblocks/car searches. I think it shows good knowledge of the area, I don’t think he was the guy that ran into the store looking for the quickest route away from the lake.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
3/28/10
Here’s an article that mentions the girls witnessing the strange guy watching them. One thing I never understand….the paper mentions the girls seeing him, yet it doesnt give a description. Also, no sketch. I think there were some missed chances to get help from the public early on.
Also of note, the article says they found footprints leading 400 yds down to the victims, and back up, and then mentions the car parked behind them. I think it is safe to say that Z was not on foot, and did pull up behind their car…at least according to the article
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
7/7/10
This article answers something I had been wondering about. So at least 10 days prior to the Stine murder the LB composite was published. I’ve had this idea that Z, if this was indeed him, saw this and got himself an immediate crew cut, as seen at PH. Perhaps this, and the glasses were the disguise he alluded to. Doesn’t explain the fatter face I know, perhaps chalked up to the varied witnesses and sketch artists?
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
I don’t see why most everyone wants the presidio sketch to be zodiac.I mean what you going to believe witnesses on a foggy san Francisco night or 3 witnesses on a sunny afternoon.The lake berryessa suspect also had a full round face just like what Mike said the zodiac had.Anyone who doesn’t think that the lake berryessa suspect was zodiac you all should have holes in your heads.
I don’t see why most everyone wants the presidio sketch to be zodiac.I mean what you going to believe witnesses on a foggy san Francisco night or 3 witnesses on a sunny afternoon.The lake berryessa suspect also had a full round face just like what Mike said the zodiac had.Anyone who doesn’t think that the lake berryessa suspect was zodiac you all should have holes in your heads.
I guess the argument there would be the kids actually saw Zodiac.
Michael Mageau’s description of a large face may end there when it comes to a match of the LB composite.
But it’s nice to know you feel some of us should have holes in our heads because we don’t share your opinion. 
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
if hartnell was right on description and I dont discount what he saw…rules out lotta poi skinny white guys..i am still not convinced ALA was not involved..the stine description has confounded me for years..not sure what to make of it..may be it is wrong and what everybody saw was X and not Z..i just dunno..ive toyed with the idea stine was not a Z crime and somebody just faked the whole Z persona (may be Gaik???)..toyed with it not at all do I believe stine was anything other than a PO’ed Z who was tired of the public not believing he could do a brazen crime and not get caught (I think Z thought of himself at the time as able to stop bullets so to speak)…i dunno just some thoughts I have tossed around at times..
foggy san Francisco night
A minor point but I believe that’s a Graysmith-ism?
Anywho,
I thought I’d take a look at the 2 Berryessa composites and compare them to the ….. also 2, Presidio Heights comps. Odd that.
I gotta say I never considered them looking alike. Now I know I have ‘transplanted’ the now infamous glasses on to them but that’s more just par for the course with these things. We all wanna see what it would look like with them on. That’s not what interests me though. I have scaled them as bes tI could and to be honest it wasn’t that hard. The relative distances between the features are pretty much the same between them. Then there’s the nose shape and the general shape of the lips. To my eyes the different composites appear to be attempting to convey similar feature traits.
They might not be as different as we all suspected. I don’t know but to me they look more alike than I thought.
A simpler option for comparison.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
foggy san Francisco night
A minor point but I believe that’s a Graysmith-ism?
Yeah i have never read anything he has ever written and i don’t think i ever will.But it did kinda sound like his bs though.
Well before we go putting holes in anyone’s head. If the person the 3 gals saw was Z. And the car Z was driving was found to be the one the cops think was parked behind Bryan’s car. Then we have 2 different cars. The wheelbase the cops measured, does not match the car, ’66-67 Chevy the 3 gals got a very good look at.
I think when the attack happened Z was wearing a jacket, not so sure he was wearing a jacket when the gals saw their guy. Also when the dentists son gave his statement he mentioned the person he saw had a shirt similiar to what the gals had mentioned, except the boy said there was red in the shirt he saw, and he witnessed the guy heading up towards the road I believe.
Too bad, Narlow and company didn’t go back to the gals site and look for shoe prints there, and pick up some cigarette butts. I wish the LB case was that clean that we could state that for sure the guy the gals saw was Z. I’ve always thought it was the same guy, but I have no proof. The gals saw their guy hours before the attack and over a mile to the north, and the car wheelbase doesn’t match. Lots of room there for doubt.
The girls also didn’t say they saw the suspect wearing a black hood with a circle and cross on the bib The jacket was part of the hooded outfit.I think when he saw the karmann ghia he parked got out and looked for its occupants.then he saw bryan and cece near the lake he then put on the jacket and belt holster garbbed the hood walked down behind the tree he put the hood on and BOOM.After he done his thing walked back takes hood off then writes on car door.But for the tire tracks maybe something happened to the car and it needed new tires how many tracks were there because in the police photo all i see is one i don’t know if that’s a rope or what the photo does not show them well. maybe it came from a spare tire That’s what i think anyway.
