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The 3 Girls – I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

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Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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The girls also didn’t say they saw the suspect wearing a black hood with a circle and cross on the bib The jacket was part of the hooded outfit.I think when he saw the karmann ghia he parked got out and looked for its occupants.then he saw bryan and cece near the lake he the put on the jacket and belt holster garbbed the hood walked down behind the tree he put the hood on and BOOM.After he done his thing walked back takes hood off then writes on car door.But for the tire tracks maybe something happened to the car and it needed new different tires how many tracks were there because in the police photo all i see is one i don’t know if that’s a rope or what the photo does not show them well. maybe it came from a spare tire That’s what i think anyway.

Cece?


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 1:55 am
(@time-traveler)
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The girls also didn’t say they saw the suspect wearing a black hood with a circle and cross on the bib The jacket was part of the hooded outfit.I think when he saw the karmann ghia he parked got out and looked for its occupants.then he saw bryan and cece near the lake he the put on the jacket and belt holster garbbed the hood walked down behind the tree he put the hood on and BOOM.After he done his thing walked back takes hood off then writes on car door.But for the tire tracks maybe something happened to the car and it needed new different tires how many tracks were there because in the police photo all i see is one i don’t know if that’s a rope or what the photo does not show them well. maybe it came from a spare tire That’s what i think anyway.

Cece?

Yeah i saw the name on a kcra news transcript on toms site thought it was a nickname bryan gave her

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 2:05 am
Welsh Chappie
(@welsh-chappie)
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Time Traveler you asked:

"I don’t see why most everyone wants the presidio sketch to be zodiac.I mean what you going to believe witnesses on a foggy san Francisco night or 3 witnesses on a sunny afternoon."

My answer to which I would give more attention & credence to is…The teen witnesses. And that is me speaking from a totally non-biased opinion because the Lake B composite looks far more like the guy I have championed as Z, that being, Larry Kane than the Presidio Composite does. But firstly, it wasn’t a fog soaked night with visibility being 1 to 3 ft. The report states the teens view of the cab and offender was ‘Unobstructed.’

Secondly, a patrolman saw the suspect also that night and he was asked to look at the composite and give his opinion on it’s accuracy and he told Toschi that the face in the composite looked similar to the man that he had seen on October 11, but that the suspect was actually older and heavier.

Case and Point:
Composite based on teens description .

Composite as Fouke remembers him:

As for Brian’s describing Z’s hair freely coming down over his forehead and appearing greacy? It was probably hot under that hood which, combined with his raised nervousness and anxiety (Hartnell recalls Zodiac’s hands literally trembling when he came to check his bindings) his hair would have looked fairly unkemped through the eye slits.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 2:28 am
(@time-traveler)
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As for Brian’s describing Z’s hair freely coming down over his forehead and appearing greacy? It was probably hot under that hood which, combined with his raised nervousness and anxiety (Hartnell recalls Zodiac’s hands literally trembling when he came to check his bindings) his hair would have looked fairly unkemped through the eye slits.

Nice that you point out the hair i think i also remember the 3 girls saying the suspect had something in his hair grease or hair gel

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 3:41 am
Seagull
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It was not foggy the night Paul Stine was killed. The eye witnesses did not have to contend with fog, it did not obstruct their vision.

The weather for that night.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/air … California

The humidity that night at 11:00pm was 53% but you need a much higher humidity for fog to form.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 4:19 am
(@time-traveler)
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Yeah ok i know it wasn’t foggy that night you all are giving me a lot of crap for that.I should nave said what you going to believe witnesses on a night in san Francisco or 3 girls on a sunny afternoon.

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 4:47 am
Seagull
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TT you are not the only person who has thought that and I’m sure you won’t be the last! I just put up a reminder because I know not every little thing can be checked.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 5:25 am
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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Topic starter
 

Yeah ok i know it wasn’t foggy that night you all are giving me a lot of crap for that.I should nave said what you going to believe witnesses on a night in san Francisco or 3 girls on a sunny afternoon.

I believe all of them, which is why I question the LB guy as Zodiac. I think some argument will come from people who don’t believe the girls saw Zodiac which is why I started the thread.

Not to mention two (apparently) different sounding voices between Hartnell, Officer Slaight, and Nancy Slover’s (VPD) opinions.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 5:33 am
Welsh Chappie
(@welsh-chappie)
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Time Trav, not giving you crap for it and if it came across that way, I apologise. Trust me when I say that if your looking for one of Zodiac’s crimes that has many incorrect claims associated with it, many different versions of what actually happened post Stine being shot, and just a whole lot of metaphorical fog and smoke to try and confuse the actual events then Pacific Heights is the one. For example, every single one of us were wrong about the white male’s last known location up until 2007 when Don Fouke was nice enough to tell us the guy wasn’t actually going North on Maple as he claimed in his Memo but that he was actually limping his way up the orange coloured steps before shuffling down the drive way to 3712. Makes me wonder what else we are being fed that we readily swallow which has no basis in truth that they lavish upon us gullible people.

Don said in so many words that he ignored reason and suspicious behaviour on the part of the White Man on the steps because he had made an assumption! He had assumed that the offender did not live there in that area. He said "I don’t know if he did live or he didn’t live there….let the Inspectors follow through." Good idea, lets wait and search the entire Presidio first for hours and ignore the potential garden he’s hiding in or is actually in that property as half the San Francisco Police Dpt. running from tree to tree and bush to bush all over the grounds as The Offender they seek has his feet up with a Beer watching from the back upstairs window of a house a cop knows he went toward.

As I said previously, Napa Sheiff David Collins stated on camera that he did not report to anyone that Cecelia had seen her attacker and described him and his face before he donned the hood because he didn’t think it was important. Fouke also see’s suspect he realises matches the offenders description a minute or so after driving past him heading for a front door of a house and he decides best thing to do now is assume something. I can’t be bothered to go to the house and knock the door as I may disturb the occupants so I shall assume he doesn’t live there instead. So Zodiac is being pursued by sheriff’s in Napa and Police Officers in the City who, combined in their efforts, will tell you that they couldn’t care less what this unknown man looks like, and have no interest in where he possibly resides.

How Zodiac managed to evade detection and elude these Forces is absolutely astonishing. Simply must be due to his stated reasoning: He’s Crack Proof. Hmmm :-/

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : May 18, 2014 5:00 pm
smithy
(@smithy)
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I believe all of them, which is why I question the LB guy as Zodiac.

I believe them all too. But then, who wrote on that car door?

 
Posted : May 19, 2014 1:06 am
(@time-traveler)
Posts: 44
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As I said previously, Napa Sheiff David Collins stated on camera that he did not report to anyone that Cecelia had seen her attacker and described him and his face before he donned the hood because he didn’t think it was important.

That’s what gets me i can’t believe he did not report any details she said about zodiacs face how can you not think that’s important.Is there a transcript of his conversation with Cecelia? Does collins remember anything she said about zodiacs face.

 
Posted : May 19, 2014 1:29 am
(@bayarea60s)
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First thing to correct here is I believe what Collins states is he didn’t put it in his report. why didn’t you put it in your report, he is asked? I didn’t think it was important at the time. He doesn’t state he doesn’t tell anyone. In his report Collin’s states, when Narlow arrived he advised Narlow of the events. Could that mean he advised Narlow, and Narlow didn’t add it to his report? I don’t know I guess it could.
Do I think Collins should have included it in his report? Definitely. And as you can see by Collins reaction when asked he is embarrassed that he didn’t. I have the highest regard for Collins as I do for Narlow, as I do for most in the LE business. I recall a couple year’s back on TV’s site after the video came out and everyone heard Collins admission, many lambasted Collins as a liar, an idiot, that the conversation between he and Cecilia never took place (Of course that was not based on any evidence anyone had). Few stopped to think back then, but I did. Collins didn’t have to bring up conversation he had with Cecilia at all, and no one would be the wiser. He could have opted for the easy road, but he didn’t. He fessed up to his error.
And what entered my mind at the time, and is still there, but I wouldn’t bring it up on Tom’s site in deference to Tom’s relationship with Narlow, which I highly regard, but it needs to be said. Narlow interviewed the 3 gals the following day, and from that a composite is made (now this is a very big deal). The 3 gals tell Narlow where this guy was, that he was smoking continually, what kind of car the guy maybe drove. By then Narlow has shoe casts of Z at the crime site, has a measurement of the wheel base of the car he believes that Z drove. Why isn’t Narlow now treating the gal’s location as part of the crime scene? Why doesn’t Narlow go up and search for shoe prints at that location, and have casts made of those, so he would be able to tie in Z as the person the 3 gals saw. why doesn’t he pick up the cig butts that this guy was smoking? He doesn’t. Or look for tire imprints that match what they have from the crime scene? He didn’t think it was important at the time… obviously. Yet that’s where the composite of Z beings at, and still is there to this day. So who’s boo boo is bigger? I would have to say Narlow’s is far greater. Then why has it never been mentioned, and why isn’t Narlow then subjected to at least the same level of scrutiny and in some cases flat out anger as Collins? Because the interviewer never asked Narlow that question. That’s the only difference that I can see. Cause what answer could Narlow give 40 years later? I didn’t think it was important at the time? Then why the composite and it has been generally accepted that the composite is of the same person who attacked Bryan and Cecilia.
As Collins is giving us the detail of what Cecilia told him, he mentions he is fully aware of her critical condition. At one point as he is asking Cecilia for a description, how tall was this guy, how much did he weigh, etc. He then asks her, did the man have glasses on? And her answer is, I couldn’t tell cause he had a hood on. Collins wasn’t asking if their attacker had glasses on after he put the hood on, but when she first saw the guy, before the hood was on. He didn’t even go back to it cause he realized her condition. To me obviously the guy wore glasses. You don’t use clip-ons for nothing. If he simply didn’t want them to see his eyes, he would wear sunglasses under the hood.

 
Posted : May 19, 2014 11:05 am
(@bayarea60s)
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Welsh Stated….

"For example, every single one of us were wrong about the white male’s last known location up until 2007 when Don Fouke was nice enough to tell us the guy wasn’t actually going North on Maple as he claimed in his Memo but that he was actually limping his way up the orange coloured steps before shuffling down the drive way to 3712."

Welsh this isn’t quite accurate. While none of us knew the address where Fouke last saw Z. Some of us knew the statement he gave in 1969, was bogus. I had the luxury of having a brother who at the time lived about 5 blocks from the crime scene. And we would walk through Julius Kahn from the Bay Side through Maple, up Jackson, up Cherry, and up to his house. So I was real familiar with the neighborhood. One thing folks who have never been, and never will be able to go through the neighborhood don’t realize about PH, especially as it pertains to Maple and Jackson, and to the east down Jackson from Maple is that for all their money, the one thing those rich folks lack is parking. Now I dont know how many cars were parked on Jackson east of Maple on 10/11/69, I do know it was usually bumper to bumper, any available parking on the north side of Jackson would be taken. Where that comes into play is as you’re heading west on Jackson towards Maple your vision is definitely blocked, especially the closer you’re looking at the Maple/Jackson corner. There is a swale from 3712 Jackson down to Maple. I wouldn’t call it a hill. As you’re heading up Jackson the best visibility you have as you’re approaching Maple is to the west of 3712 Jackson. And from the timing standpoint the closer Z would be to Maple the fewer the seconds are that Fouke’s/Zelm have to witness Z. It would be 2-3 seconds total if Z were down at Maple, and Fouke’s simply drove by.

Now Fouke writes his script the day on which the 2nd Z letter is published in the Chronicle. I don’t think, my opinion, Fouke’s writing of the script is just a coincidence on that day. I don’t think Fouke ever writes a script period, unless he is called in to do so. What does he care what’s printed in the media? His name isn’t going to be in the Chronicle. But Chief of Police Lee at 5pm on that day has to go before all the media and give answer to what Z claims. He is the one who needs to hear it from Fouke. So they call Don at home and ask him to come in, which he does. Again my opinion here, what if Fouke tells them exactly what he witnessed, as he does on the video years later. That story isn’t going to fly, you have to connect the park to your encounter, otherwise the press will be asking Lee what made you think Z went into the park? And what could he say. So they alter Fouke’s story a bit to CYA. And they put Z at Maple, which still doesn’t cover the story, but it’s a whole lot better than 3712 Jackson. They already know it’s Fouke’s assumption that leads them into the park, but they don’t want the people to know it was based on an assumption. That would make them look like complete incompetence. Again just my opinion there.

Welsh Stated….

"Don said in so many words that he ignored reason and suspicious behaviour on the part of the White Man on the steps because he had made an assumption! He had assumed that the offender did not live there in that area. He said "I don’t know if he did live or he didn’t live there….let the Inspectors follow through." Good idea, lets wait and search the entire Presidio first for hours and ignore the potential garden he’s hiding in or is actually in that property as half the San Francisco Police Dpt. running from tree to tree and bush to bush all over the grounds as The Offender they seek has his feet up with a Beer watching from the back upstairs window of a house a cop knows he went toward."

Well not quite accurate here. Fouke does make an assumption, that Z went into the park…..But Fouke is in search of a black man who has just robbed a cabbie, he is not making an assumption there, just going off the information he has been given. So pursuing a white man who has walked up some steps that leads to 3712 Jackson wouldn’t make any sense. Fouke’s states that Pellessetti tells him the perp is a white guy, Pellessetti denies that, but if Armand did then why doesn’t Fouke turn his car around and not assume. Only seconds have passed Z would still be on the street and catchable. Z was a very lucky man.

 
Posted : May 19, 2014 12:38 pm
(@bayarea60s)
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Oh sorry just saw this thread if for the 3 gals, not PH…My apologies…..

 
Posted : May 19, 2014 12:46 pm
Norse
(@norse)
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If Z is identical to the man observed by the three girls (let’s call him LBPOI), the question is what was he up to? He crept around for forty five minutes, smoking cigarettes, watching them…why? Did he consider attacking them? Or was he waiting for them to leave because he didn’t fancy them as victims (didn’t fit the profile, perhaps)?

LBPOI had his car parked next to the girls’ car. There was a parking lot – or at least a designated parking area, isn’t that so? And this area wasn’t too far from where the girls were sunbathing. Now, trying to look at this from Z’s point of view, I’d say the spot where he did in fact attack C and B was far better suited to his purpose. If he had attacked those girls – or anyone else at the same spot – he would have ran a much bigger risk than he did at the actual crime scene. Why? Because that spot was close to a designated parking area, i.e. an area where anyone might pull up at any time: if he was interrupted in the middle of an attack, he’d be trapped – he couldn’t possibly make it back to the car without being seen and if he took off on foot, he would have to leave the car behind. And that would’ve been game over for him.

Seems very unlikely to me that he would’ve even considered attacking anyone at that spot. But if LBPOI was Z he did hang around there for forty five minutes – again, doing what? Indulging in some voyeurism before going in for the kill at a more secluded spot? Seems unnecessarily risky. The girls could’ve called him over to them. They could’ve confronted him about creeping around. They could’ve – as they sort of did – gotten a better look at him than he would’ve liked. And a good look at his car, for that matter. A car they knew was his beyond any doubt.

I don’t know, it doesn’t add up for me. But then again perhaps I’m over-thinking it – and perhaps I’m giving Z too much credit. Perhaps he was more careless than we tend to think. But this is a guy who attacked at night and/or took measures to conceal his identity. Does it make sense that he allowed himself – and his car – to be observed openly by three witnesses in that fashion? They see him, they see the car, he remains close by, smoking and watching them for a length of time – practically doing what he can to make them more than decent witnesses…it’s not very clever, that’s for sure.

 
Posted : May 31, 2014 10:43 pm
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