I wasn’t accusing you of being a believer Trav! I appreciate you telling me where the engineer boots came from.
Is the YouTube an off shoot of Kelleher’s book of the same name? Kelleher denounced his own book a few years ago, and rightly so IMO.
That I don’t know and hadn’t considered. The video I linked to is the extra feature on the 2008 ‘Zodiac’ where the various LE officers and survivors were interviewed.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
I wasn’t accusing you of being a believer Trav! I appreciate you telling me where the engineer boots came from.
Is the YouTube an off shoot of Kelleher’s book of the same name? Kelleher denounced his own book a few years ago, and rightly so IMO.
That I don’t know and hadn’t considered. The video I linked to is the extra feature on the 2008 ‘Zodiac’ where the various LE officers and survivors were interviewed.
Both Kellerher’s book and the Zodiac movie were take offs of Graysmith’s books so it probably doesn’t matter. The ultimate likely source of the engineer boots was Graysmith.
As far as Fouke, in his (very) descriptive memo, all he mentions is "may have been wearing low cut shoes". I’m not too keen on the (40 year later) revelations.
Even though Fouke, who is very sharp in those interviews, has good information to offer, and was a member of LE who was at the crime scene and witnessed the suspect first hand. WE SHOULD IGNORE WHAT HE HAS TO SAY? (because you say so?)
Wing walkers look pretty low cut. It’s very possible these were the same shoes he wore at LB.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q7JHQiMpSLw/ … Bboots.jpg
The assertion is that the LB perp is a copycat and not the same person who 2 weeks later was seen at PH.
*I want to try my best to understand this, even though Real-Z was seen wearing the same out of style, very unusual for the time, pleated pants at PH (2 weeks later). Even though LB-CopyCat was into copying many elements from Real-Z, (but the pants would happen in the future) LB-CopyCat just so happened to also be wearing the same out of style, very unusual for the time, pleated pants at LB, and this should be ignored because? Coincidence?
This same twisted logic can be used (and sadly is used) with any of the crimes and can achieve the same results.
For example BRS vs PH.
PH-Z had reddish-brown hair, BRS had curly light brown hair. (= different person)
PH-Z wore glasses, BRS wore no glasses (= different person)
PH-Z had no car, BRS had a brown car (= different person)
PH-Z was in one report 40 years old, BRS he was 30 (= different person)
I wasn’t accusing you of being a believer Trav! I appreciate you telling me where the engineer boots came from.
Is the YouTube an off shoot of Kelleher’s book of the same name? Kelleher denounced his own book a few years ago, and rightly so IMO.
That I don’t know and hadn’t considered. The video I linked to is the extra feature on the 2008 ‘Zodiac’ where the various LE officers and survivors were interviewed.
Both Kellerher’s book and the Zodiac movie were take offs of Graysmith’s books so it probably doesn’t matter. The ultimate likely source of the engineer boots was Graysmith.
Didn’t the "Wide Flange Beam" (engineering) come from Graysmith too? I wonder which one of those guys from the first book was involved in engineering? Was it Marshall? But yes Seagull…Graysmith words have influenced many over the years.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Geeze "Paul"…
I’m not telling anyone to ignore anything because "I say so". You can believe whatever you want to.
And why is it you think pleated slacks were out of style?
Still nothing to add about why you think the guy the 3 girls saw was Zodiac?
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
why would Graysmith add the part about the Engineering Boots? his suspect didn’t have anything to with engineering… that i know of
Is everyone forgetting that the "perv" wasn’t just some creep watching girls? That he stalked multiple sets of people, including a man and child, before Cecelia and Bryan were attacked? To those who study this sort of thing, is this not classic trolling behavior? What do we gain by presuming that the simplest explanation is false other than the same sense of being so much smarter than everyone else that the Zodiac himself got off on?
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
Is everyone forgetting that the "perv" wasn’t just some creep watching girls? That he stalked multiple sets of people, including a man and child, before Cecelia and Bryan were attacked? To those who study this sort of thing, is this not classic trolling behavior? What do we gain by presuming that the simplest explanation is false other than the same sense of being so much smarter than everyone else that the Zodiac himself got off on?
Not quite sure what you mean by this, Pettibon.
Are you referring to the Dentist and his 16 year old son? There are people that argue he isn’t the man the 3 girls saw either, but then you’d have three creeps who were alike. They saw him walking on the hillside…stalking, or leaving the scene of a crime…
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Are you referring to the Dentist and his 16 year old son? There are people that argue he isn’t the man the 3 girls saw either, but then you’d have three creeps who were alike. They saw him walking on the hillside…stalking, or leaving the scene of a crime…
That’s exactly what I’m saying. The revisionist scenarios being proposed that presume this guy wasn’t Z needlessly complicate a case that needn’t be so.
I don’t know if anyone here’s read From Hell but this is turning very much into Alan Moore’s "dance of the gull-catchers."
"There are such devils."
-The Pledge
In that, we agree. Earlier in this thread I shared thoughts from an old member, "Solar Pons". It really made me think about the mind-set of the guy and the type of behavior involved–SP did a superb job laying that out. When you look at the big picture, and the many who saw him that day, it seems a given it is the same man…most don’t behave that way….regardless of who we might think he was.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
The revisionist scenarios being proposed that presume this guy wasn’t Z needlessly complicate a case that needn’t be so.
That is what Tahoe is claiming. I just want to dig to the bottom of these claims and figure out why they continue.
Before I bother starting a new thread of evidence as Tahoe has requested, here are a few things I would like answered.
Just to try and understand this copycat theory better.
@ 1:19:30 , Fouke mentions that “pleated” pants were very unusual for the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7qpDNU4RM
Yes or No, do you believe it is just a coincidence the LB suspect also wore pleated pants?
(If PH happened before LB, would you claim the “LB Copycat” copied the pants from PH *I have a feeling you would.)
Yes or No, do you have any evidence the Zodiac style writing on the car door was forged?
(Not an available source to copy from, but evidence that it is a copy of Z writing)
Yes or No, Do you believe “LB Copycat” also copied the writing style from the Riverside writings?
(The candy cane F that was written on the car door would have had to be copied from the yet to be connected Riverside writings since Z didn’t use them in the few letters mailed up the the LB crime date)
Bonus Questions!
Why did the “LB Copycat” Not refer to himself as Z to BH and CS?
If he was a copycat wouldn’t he want them to think he was named Zodiac?
Why did the “LB Copycat” drive a blue car, not a brown one as reported from BRS.
(Did he copy that idea from the LHR police report, with 2 witnesses reporting a blue car)
Paul_A,
I asked you over and over again for you to explain your thoughts on why you believed the man the 3 girls saw and the man who attacked Bryan and Cecelia were the same person. That is, after all, what this thread is about. You don’t need to start a new one…this thread is here for that purpose.
I’m not going to re-hash your questions here. You obviously take issue me me and my thoughts….fine, but if you want to contribute (like you said you would), offer something in regards to this thread subject.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
@ 1:19:30 , Fouke mentions that “pleated” pants were very unusual for the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7qpDNU4RMYes or No, do you believe it is just a coincidence the LB suspect also wore pleated pants?
(If PH happened before LB, would you claim the “LB Copycat” copied the pants from PH *I have a feeling you would.)
I take exception to the statement that pleated pants were "very unusual." It probably was unusual for a young person to be wearing pleated pants but not for older people or someone who had to dress in slacks and a tie for work.
Pleated pants were still being sold in stores in 1969 and in 1970 men’s suits just as often as not had pleated pants. Bryan, when describing Zodiac’s clothing did say that he was "wearing older style clothes, like pleated pants" but style is in the eye of the beholder. Bryan was young and pleated pants may have seemed rather fuddy duddy to him.
@ 1:19:30 , Fouke mentions that “pleated” pants were very unusual for the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7qpDNU4RMYes or No, do you believe it is just a coincidence the LB suspect also wore pleated pants?
(If PH happened before LB, would you claim the “LB Copycat” copied the pants from PH *I have a feeling you would.)I take exception to the statement that pleated pants were "very unusual." It probably was unusual for a young person to be wearing pleated pants but not for older people or someone who had to dress in slacks and a tie for work.
Pleated pants were still being sold in stores in 1969 and in 1970 men’s suits just as often as not had pleated pants. Bryan, when describing Zodiac’s clothing did say that he was "wearing older style clothes, like pleated pants" but style is in the eye of the beholder. Bryan was young and pleated pants may have seemed rather fuddy duddy to him.
Fouke made the point he thought it was unusual.
My point is that this is very consistent with Z’s outdated fashion. Horned rimmed glasses, pleated pants, crew cuts and greased hair, were all very 1950’s and if you look at how people dressed in 1969, it comes off as unusual.
It’s just one of the many things consistent with Z that was also was noted at LB.
Copycat / Hoax theories all come about because the people who push these theories pick one or two things they see as inconsistent. With LB, there are more things that line up with Z than do not. But when these issues are pointed out, the Hoax theory people only get defensive and never seem to address those issues.
Copycat / Hoax theories all come about because the people who push these theories pick one or two things they see as inconsistent. With LB, there are more things that line up with Z than do not. But when these issues are pointed out, the Hoax theory people only get defensive and never seem to address those issues.
I think the term "Hoax Theories" is sometimes used in a dismissive way. Something every single member/visitor to this site should be able to agree on is that there were dozens, maybe hundreds, of Z hoaxers. There is a section on this site for unconfirmed letters – those which people still debate may be genuine or hoaxes, and those who’s favorite POI is dead, believe that every letter after the death of their POI was a hoax.
So… we all believe in the Copycat/Hoax "theory" to one degree or another, don’t we? Or is there anyone who believes every single letter claiming to be from Zodiac is genuine?
What it comes down to then is specific letters and specific crimes. Again, maybe someone thinks a hoaxer in a specific instance, like LB, is a stretch, but the "Hoaxer Theory" itself is well established.
