I was going to do that thing where you re-post parts of someone’s post and then answer underneath but I’m being lazy lol so forgive me for attempting to paraphrase to ask my questions and/or offer my thoughts.

First of all the only confirmed witnesses after the fact were Bryan and Cecelia (tragically briefly) and neither saw his face. To say that he was seen by many witnesses is not conclusively verifiable. Hence this thread and discussion.

As to the model I can agree on principle but I’m not sure it’s so set in stone. Compulsion yes, I can go for that and I can even accept that by it’s very nature it can add a lot of uncertainties to a situation or plan. The thing about compulsion though is that it doesn’t negate planning. If anything it actually focuses it because you HAVE to have what you want but you can still be aware that it is not the right thing and therefore to avoid guilt (which is more of a game spoiler) you are also compelled to cover all eventualities in your head. One such eventuality in this scenario is getting caught so in that respect Z’s behavior, assuming it was him the girls saw, does not tally with compulsive behavior.

Even if we are to allow for compulsion that suddenly strikes him while he happens to just be at the location it still doesn’t tally because he came prepared. So if he was ‘compelled’ for days then he was planning for days and I don’t see, especially with compulsion, how the incident with the girls fits in. It doesn’t make sense.

Further more the inclusion of the hood supports this. The pre-fantasizing. Suggesting quite strongly that it had to be as close to what he wanted it to be, in fact I don’t doubt that he played it in his head so strongly that he would almost have no choice but to carry it out the way it happened. If anything it was the time after the attack that would have been less controlled because his need was fulfilled and therefore his drive would start to subside. This might be why his hands were shaking prior to it but after he was able to write on the car with no apparent problem.

The only thing I can think of, in this scenario, that might explain him being who the girls saw would be that he was having second thoughts about doing his thing. I can’t quite tally that either though because given the amount of elements involved in the event, any doubt or even deviation would have ruined it for him. He had to remain compelled to get there, with all of his prepared kill kit, find his perfect victims at the perfect spot, write his message (most likely pre-practiced and decided on), leave and complete with the phone call. Nothing less would satisfy. So again, the 3 girls incident doesn’t make sense, to me. If it had taken place a day or a week before then yes I could go for that but not on the day it happened.

Now. That’s the compulsion side of things and given what we do know about this attack and his writings it does ‘seem’ that it could have played a big part. This was his fantasy and his alone. It was so personal to him that even his victims weren’t allowed to share in it. And it was personal "even better than getting your rocks off with a girl". He didn’t want anything to spoil it, so much so that he didn’t even want his victims to see him whilst he did it. Secret, hidden, private.

He wasn’t that sloppy if you ask me. Reckless, risky, absolutely but that comes with the compulsion. He would have known that though so in some ways he was probably and paradoxically even more careful.

Soooooo … I’ve probably confused myself even more lol but I still don’t see, or can’t reconcile the 3 girls incident.

Whilst I’m thinking about it does anyone know if the model of this guy’s car had a wheelbase that would have been compatible with the treads found at the attack site?

Reading back is a wonderful thing lol. Thanks Bay.

If the person the 3 gals saw was Z. And the car Z was driving was found to be the one the cops think was parked behind Bryan’s car. Then we have 2 different cars. The wheelbase the cops measured, does not match the car, ’66-67 Chevy the 3 gals got a very good look at.

That is a compelling point – about the cars, I mean.

The question is how much weight we can put on the girls’ testimony here – a Chevrolet, fairly recent model, quite "conservative" car (I think that’s what they said)…precisely what model do we think he drove and is that absolutely incompatible with the tracks behind BH’s car?

..and how is there proof the car 20′ behind Bryan’s was their attacker’s?

No prints to and from Bryan’s car, or from the path to the attacker’s car. Those tire tracks could simply be from another vehicle.

Would he park there and stab people risking someone else pulling in while he was doing his deed? Another man was seen walking the trail just north of there…same description.

..and how is there proof the car 20′ behind Bryan’s was their attacker’s?

No prints to and from Bryan’s car, or from the path to the attacker’s car. Those tire tracks could simply be from another vehicle.

Would he park there and stab people risking someone else pulling in while he was doing his deed? Another man was seen walking the trail just north of there…same description.

To reply in reverse order. I would surmise that having his car parked there would be of potential cover value whilst writing on Bryan’s car. As to the prints there weren’t a continuous trail of prints anyway so it’s no guarantee that prints would be left at the car/cars.

The other thing I’m thinking as well is that he carrying his ‘gear’ so I wouldn’t imagine he would want to be walking around with that for too long considering what he had just done so not only carrying stuff but having to get back to his car after having expended a reasonable amount of energy. Also, assuming he didn’t park there, where would be the closest place he could have parked and been able to make it into Napa to make the phonecall? It wouldn’t have been too far surely so why not where we think it was.?

..and how is there proof the car 20′ behind Bryan’s was their attacker’s?

No prints to and from Bryan’s car, or from the path to the attacker’s car. Those tire tracks could simply be from another vehicle.

Would he park there and stab people risking someone else pulling in while he was doing his deed? Another man was seen walking the trail just north of there…same description.

To reply in reverse order. I would surmise that having his car parked there would be of potential cover value whilst writing on Bryan’s car. As to the prints there weren’t a continuous trail of prints anyway so it’s no guarantee that prints would be left at the car/cars.

The other thing I’m thinking as well is that he carrying his ‘gear’ so I wouldn’t imagine he would want to be walking around with that for too long considering what he had just done so not only carrying stuff but having to get back to his car after having expended a reasonable amount of energy. Also, assuming he didn’t park there, where would be the closest place he could have parked and been able to make it into Napa to make the phonecall? It wouldn’t have been too far surely so why not where we think it was.?

–I don’t think parking 20 feet behind someone offers cover when writing on the car door.

–A knife and a gun are easily concealable.

–A 5-10 minute walk in either direction can get you to another parking area. Parking then was simply along the road.

–I don’t think parking 20 feet behind someone offers cover when writing on the car door.

–A knife and a gun are easily concealable.

–A 5-10 minute walk in either direction can get you to another parking area. Parking then was simply along the road.

Depends on the direction of other traffic and the shape/bends in the road I suppose?

A reasonably sized knife, a gun, a scabbard (possibly wooden), a the holster and a hood. Concealed or not it still has to be carried. Probably not a tonne weight but not feathers either after the physical and mental exertion of the act.

Yes I suppose but what about the prints that were found on the trail? Did they indicate that he may have approached from a direction other than the one he left by to get to Bryan’s car? (I can’t remember off the top of my head).

You all know what’s funny is that the three girls at the lake make me think of the song from the Mikado Three little maids.

–I don’t think parking 20 feet behind someone offers cover when writing on the car door.

–A knife and a gun are easily concealable.

–A 5-10 minute walk in either direction can get you to another parking area. Parking then was simply along the road.

Depends on the direction of other traffic and the shape/bends in the road I suppose?

A reasonably sized knife, a gun, a scabbard (possibly wooden), a the holster and a hood. Concealed or not it still has to be carried. Probably not a tonne weight but not feathers either after the physical and mental exertion of the act.

Yes I suppose but what about the prints that were found on the trail? Did they indicate that he may have approached from a direction other than the one he left by to get to Bryan’s car? (I can’t remember off the top of my head).

I wonder where he stashed his stuff before walking up on Cecelia and Bryan. Didn’t she say she saw him a few minutes before the attack behind a tree. I wonder if he carried some sort of bag with him and he hid it before committing the crime.

–I don’t think parking 20 feet behind someone offers cover when writing on the car door.

–A knife and a gun are easily concealable.

–A 5-10 minute walk in either direction can get you to another parking area. Parking then was simply along the road.

Depends on the direction of other traffic and the shape/bends in the road I suppose?

A reasonably sized knife, a gun, a scabbard (possibly wooden), a the holster and a hood. Concealed or not it still has to be carried. Probably not a tonne weight but not feathers either after the physical and mental exertion of the act.

Yes I suppose but what about the prints that were found on the trail? Did they indicate that he may have approached from a direction other than the one he left by to get to Bryan’s car? (I can’t remember off the top of my head).

I wonder where he stashed his stuff before walking up on Cecelia and Bryan. Didn’t she say she saw him a few minutes before the attack behind a tree. I wonder if he carried some sort of bag with him and he hid it before committing the crime.

Doubt it. The only thing I can think of that he may have put by the tree is the hood. Everything else would have been on his person. Gun was said to be in gun holster and knife likely in a belt sheath ties likely in pocket.

At least that’s how I would think…

Folded hood in hand, gun in right hip holster, knife in left hip holster, ties in back pocket. Equipped for serious business. Drives around, looking for weak members of the pack. It’s getting dark, so stragglers would be the best. People sitting out watching the sun going down, far from anyone else. Drives around…finds a car parked on an isolated stretch of road. Parks behind them. Gets out. Walks down. Obviously whoever owns the car is going to walk down perpendicular to the car’s location. Goes down, mills about looking for the owners of the car. Locates them. Begins moving in their direction. Waits till he’s a certain distance before concealing himself in the hood he’s carrying. Hood on, he pulls the gun to seize control. You know the rest. Then he leaves. Figures two dead people out on a rock after dark won’t catch much attention any time soon. Same MO as previously seen. Pulls his magical pen and does a lettering job on the car. Drives off and around back to Napa down Berryessa Knoxville Road, into the 128, into the 121, into Napa. Or he could have gone west…

Probably right-handed since his gun was his weapon of choice, and he liked to park right of his victims cars.

As for the guy the three girls saw…maybe. One says he was about 40, which puts him right in the age range of 35 to 45 per Fouke and the kids. Mageau, on the other hand, said he was…younger. And the girl in question said he drove a "conservative" car, meaning something an older individual would drive. Certainly goes right with what Fouke said about the old, pleated pants he says he saw The Zodiac suspect wearing…

But then there’s the issue of the clip-on sunglasses…

One wonders if this individual was him. Some have said he would not have allowed himself to be seen, but he DID let himself be seen by Shephard, which is how she was able to describe him. Certainly, this individual’s behavior indicates guilt and/or suspicion, and it seems he didn’t want to be seen too closely. Possibly he was looking for a victim or victims, but had to reconnoiter without the hood, obviously, which meant taking the risk of being seen sans disguise. Other behavior at other crime scenes indicates a pre-attack anxiety.

I’d say…it might have been him. Then again, one of the other girl’s described him as 28, well-built. His car was, she said, a ’67 or 68. She said he passed within 20 feet of her. He then disappeared about 4:30, some two hours before the Hartnell-Shephard attack. None of the three girls describe this man as wearing glasses. They also describe him as having a round face, which contrasts with the Stine composite.

On first glance, yes, could have been him, but probably not.

EDIT: Regarding the sunglasses….Hartnell claimed they were attached to the hood, directly, so that obfuscates the matter regarding the man seen by the girls considering he was not wearing glasses.

One wonders how he determined hair color and greasiness….

My apologies for the error. I should have known better.

FWIW As has been said before I imagine he carried the belt knife and gun in the hood, using it as a bag (which the shape indicates it probably was) – then took his little murder kit out of the bag, but the bag on his head (turning it inside out too, to reveal the symbol, maybe) – then on to business.
It’s possible he had the nylon line secured at his waist, which is what the girls mistook for something else in their description. Maybe.
If it was the same guy, that is. (I must admit I think that’s reasonably likely.)

…….Same MO as previously seen.

Wotcher JR – What’s the same?

@Smithy: well, according to Hartnell’s testimony, The Zodiac had his gun in a black holster on his right hip and his knife in a wooden sheath on his left hip. These things are usually threaded through a belt, so maybe he wore them down to the location…

Has anyone ever noticed now the cop in the LHR police report misspells until as untill? Or how Hartnell uses the word shall like The Zodiac?

It’s a very Zodiac world, I guess…

FWIW As has been said before I imagine he carried the belt knife and gun in the hood, using it as a bag (which the shape indicates it probably was) – then took his little murder kit out of the bag, but the bag on his head (turning it inside out too, to reveal the symbol, maybe) – then on to business.
It’s possible he had the nylon line secured at his waist, which is what the girls mistook for something else in their description.

Well, to be honest, one of the girls claimed the unsub came as close as 20 feet, which is about thrice my height, so ask yourself: would YOU mistake a t-shirt for loops of strand at 20 feet on a bright afternoon?

As for the hood…I pretty much figured what he did…no biggie. Black cloth bag, maybe some Halloween candy carrier or a department store thing, maybe a reusable grocery bag…he cut out eyes, cut the handles off, and then traced the bag’s opening with a white sewing pencil onto a 40 by 20 piece of black fabric. He then cut out the hole and sewed the bag end to the cloth opening. Then he either used the white pencil to draw in his symbol, or used that as a template to sew in some thread. Finally, he clipped in some slip-on sunglasses.

You could make one of these things yourself in a few hours, at most, with 20-30 bucks on Ebay.

All these years, we were wondering if the guy used a chemical suit, or something from the Lamplighters, when in reality the dummy was wearing a black cloth sack over his "unprepossessing" mug.

What a weirdo. Guess he thought he was Aleister Crowley.

He probably used an old tee shirt or sweat shirt as the pattern for the bib. He probably went to a fabric store and bought enough black felt to use for it. That could have been glued at the seams even if he didn’t have a sewing maching. He then could have taken a drinking glass and drawn a circle or used a cookie cutter. Or, he had a protracter that he used.

He then could have taken some white paint or even used white-out to fill in the outlines for the circle and cross. (That is what was used to correct typing errors).

All he had to do was cut the sleeves off an old shirt and from there, making a pattern for the bib would be very easy.