This is certainly an interesting discussion you have going, sure makes you think a lot. There was a map floating around, either on this site, or zk.com, I forget where, but shows the location where the girls had their encounter, and where Z attacked(an possibly where the Doctor & Son saw the mystery Guy, I can’t remember). Anybody recall this map? Anyhow, I seem to recall that all 3 locations were reasonably close together,although at various times.

Tahoe wrote "Most know my stance, but to me whether or not the guy was Zodiac doesn’t affect my opinion. If the guy was or wasn’t Zodiac, to me the guy the girls saw, the doc and his son saw and who attacked Bryan and Cecelia are the same man"

Didn’t the Doctor & son describe a Guy that didn’t seem to resemble the one the Girls saw, at least physically?

It’s on page 1 of this thread morf.

Description of the man the Dr. & son saw. In Zodiac Unmasked Graysmith mentions something about the guy being bald. Not in any PD report either way.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport6.html

Hehe, old Bobby G would mention him being bald, wouldn’t he? Nice bit of leading questioning going on when he interviewed one of the girls years after the fact too, pretty much taking it for granted that Z was a swimmer and so forth.

Anyway, just a minor detail but I thought I’d clarify it nonetheless:

What I meant above, regarding the clothesline = belt/t-shirt thing: If we presuppose that Mr Creepy was the assailant and that he carried the clothesline in the fashion described by Hartnell, what the girls would have seen is – I presume, but I’m happy to be corrected – not white clothesline in general (as it were) but rather a bundle of clothesline protruding from the man’s back pocket. In other words a fairly small object and an object of a particular shape. My question is whether it’s likely that someone would have mistaken such an object for either a belt or a t-shirt sticking out at the back.

Also, going by the testimonies in the report: There is a discrepancy here. Mr Creepy wears a short sleeve shirt/pullover/whathaveyou. The mystery man (doc/son) wears a long sleeve shirt (with red in it).

The similarities, garment wise, between the three subjects are these two:

They all wear dark clothes.

Mr Creepy and the assailant both wear slacks/dress pants/something of the sort.

In the Graysmith interview mentioned above, the witness (one of the three girls) mentions "pleated" in one form or another – but this is not included in the original report, and given the "swimmer" spin RG obviously has put on it, we may perhaps surmise that he has offered up the "pleated" part too (though not necessarily as a means to force ALA on the witness – he may have "refreshed" her memory simply by citing Hartnell’s description of Z).

Yes Norse. I stand corrected. None of the girls mention "pleated" in their descriptions in the police reports. Although, lack of mentioning pleated doesn’t change my point of view. We have more than clothes to consider, but those still work for me. As you mentioned, Zodiac probably had something else under that jacket.

I appreciate your point of view Norse. You know I value your opinion, but because we don’t see eye-to-eye here doesn’t mean I know longer think you are swell.

Far too kind, T – not even my mom would go as far as to call me swell. Swell-ish, maybe – at the most.

But thanks – and right back at you.

I too think the three girls saw Zodiac. I’m not sure how I can reconcile the vehicle wheelbase difference in the car they reported seeing him in and what was measured at the crime scene parking area. Maybe that’s not important as witnesses can misremember details like vehicle make, model and year.

For me, there is just no way to know for sure that it was the car of their attacker. It was 20′ behind Bryan’s and there were no footprints to nor from the area of the tire tracks.

So here’s my observation …
1) I can buy the sketch either as another guy or as the guy at PH.
2) After PH, Zodiac claims he uses disguises. So either 1) he was telling the truth, and we can assume he had a disguise at LB, or 2) he was lying, and PH was an accurate representation. I lean toward 2.

But the real Beryessa mystery is the tire tracks. We have a car description from the girls that doesn’t square well with the wheelbase at the crime scene. Generally the witness testimony just seems to point to two cars involved in these crimes – a larger light-colored Chevy and a smaller darker Ford-ish. If that is true, then at Beryessa you have to ask, did Z go home and come back in a different car? If so, how does the timeframe account for that? We have him with the girls and Chevy until 4:45. Then we appear to have him in a smaller car at the crime scene at about 6:30. And it’s an hour’s drive to Vallejo, correct? That’s a very tight squeeze.

Since I think the guy the doc/dentist and his son saw was their attacker, I don’t think he was parked behind Bryan’s car when he attacked them. No footprints to or from his car to Bryan’s or the path either.

Since I think the guy the doc/dentist and his son saw was their attacker, I don’t think he was parked behind Bryan’s car when he attacked them. No footprints to or from his car to Bryan’s or the path either.

I can buy that. The attacker was parked somewhere further down the road.

But I don’t think the doc/son guy was the voyeur.

Doc/son guy: Appears in wooded terrain, clearly not keen on being spotted. Wears a long sleeve dark shirt with red in it.

Voyeur: Appears in the open, not overly worried about being spotted (albeit not exactly acting naturally either). Wears a dark short sleeved pullover.

If the attacker was both, he wore both a long sleeve shirt (with red in it, which clearly can’t be mistaken for the baggy sort of jacket he wore during the attack) and a short sleeve pullover, possibly with a t-shirt underneath.

The doc/son guy could have been the attacker. But he was not the voyeur.

One girl said she thought it was a "white belt"…hence, "possibly" a T-shirt. I absolutely think she had the "white belt" (clothesline) right. The belt/shirt was in back as was Bryan’s description of the clothesline.

At one point their attacker had on a long sleeved garment and he also had on some sort of pullover–it wouldn’t surprise me if these were just switched up somehow.

I also take into consideration this person walked down to the girls, he wasn’t only watching them from above. He walked down to them in the same manner in which Bryan and Cecelia’s attacker did. I can tell you, having been to Lake Berryessa, when you are down in your own little area and someone else comes down there, it is a tad uncomfortable. You kind of claim your "spot".

WHY did he watch those girls from above, then approach them so closely down at the beach (with his "white belt" and bunched up shirt–in front ) and not even acknowledge them? Earlier they said when they looked at him, he would look away (as did the guy the dentist and his son saw).

I think when he got that close, he realized he couldn’t take on all three and chickened out.

One of the three girls statements via http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

At one point their attacker had on a long sleeved garment and he also had on some sort of pullover–it wouldn’t surprise me if these were just switched up somehow.

Well, that’s possible. Switched up how, though? None of the girls mention a long sleeved shirt, whereas two of them state explicitly that his shirt had short sleeves. Nor is there any mention of the shirt having red in it. And the doc/son statement is unambiguous: Long sleeved shirt with red in it. The latter detail precludes (in my opinion) the possibility of them mistaking a jacket (or rather THE jacket) for a shirt.

Based on the available evidence there are three or possibly four garments in play here: A dark jacket (observed by BH), a dark long sleeved shirt with red in it (observed by doc/son), a dark short sleeved shirt (observed by the girls) and possibly a white t-shirt (also observed by the girls).

Did all these garments belong to the same person? Sure, they could have. He could have changed from short to long sleeves, or worn a long sleeved shirt over his short sleeved one, the possibilities are practically endless. But statistically I’d say it’s more common to wear either short or long sleeves – and then have a jacket ready in case it gets cold (or you decide to attack someone with a knife) – not to carry multiple shirts with you.

As for the behavior, we’ve been over this before – but to me the main thing to keep in mind is that the creepy guy was creeping on girls in bikinis. It’s natural for someone like that to act the way he did – it’s not indicative of anything beyond the very activity itself, you could say, which is a somewhat dubious activity to begin with.

The doc/son guy’s reaction is clearly different to me. He acts like someone who doesn’t want to be seen at all, and who has been spotted in a place where he didn’t expect anyone to spot him.

That said, there are problems with the doc/son guy too:

* He was spotted at approximately 6:30.
* He was not carrying anything and he was not wearing a jacket.
* According to Narlow it is unlikely that the guy could have covered the distance between the crime scene and where he was spotted on foot (there being, as the report says, four coves of water in between).

The doc/son guy could have been the attacker. But he was not the voyeur.

Looking at the time line (as far as we can determine it), it seems questionable that the doc/son guy was the attacker IF the time of the encounter (as reported by the doc) is accurate:

* Ranger White was contacted by Park HQ at approx. 1855 hours. Before that, two events occured:

1. Fong discovers BH and CS, proceeds to Rancho Monticello – and 2. Mrs. White calls Park HQ.

* Doc/son encounter takes place at approx. 1830 hours.

Even if the doc/son guy was parked nearby (a possibility noted by Narlow – but he also remarks that according to the doc and son, no cars were to be seen near their own), it seems impossible that he could have made it to "Zodiac Island" in time to attack BH and CS before Fong came around in his boat.

Unless…he was seen by the doc and son after the attack. It seems unlikely at first glance: One would think that Z, after the attack, headed to his car (most likely after having done the writing on B’s car door) – and that he proceeded to leave the area immedately. If the post-attack observation theory holds water, he must have headed to the car, disposed of his gear (weapons, costume and jacket), and then for reasons unknown left the car again to do…what? No, it looks like a stretch.

A couple of points I find generally interesting, though – and possibly germane to this…speculation:

* The time of the Napa call (again!). He called at 1940 hours. There is some reason to suggest that it took him longer to get to the phone booth than one should think if the time of the attack (as written on the car door) is more or less accurate.

* The footprints and the tire tracks. These don’t add up perfectly. The infamous Wingwalker prints are consistent with the subject moving from Bryan’s car to the crime scene (or the other way around, if you prefer). But no prints were found to indicate that the subject had gone near a second vehicle (namely his own car, which must have been parked where the tire tracks were discovered). This is arguably odd.

And to make it clear: It is possibly relevant because IF his car was NOT parked close to Bryan’s, it alters the time line for obvious reasons. How much it alters the time line is impossible to tell as long as we don’t know exactly where he was parked.

Guess he had to change his clothes. There must have been smoe blood on it. Also he might had gotten rid of the mask and other stuff (Sandy’s car..time?). For Z there were not many reasons to choose any phone booth far away from his home. So different the call from Tuluomne Street, this one may have happened sort of ‘on his way home’. Vice versa, after LB, he could have called ‘on his way home’ before driving to Vallejo, too. Therefore his home could have been somewhere between these two phone booths, placing him somehow to American Canyon.

QT