AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:00 am

There was never a good motive for Barnett to kill Cheri and no motive at all for his friend to so.

We don’t know any of that.

The police had plenty of contact with the friend so they could have snagged a hair to compare.

Fact remains that they didn’t. I’m shocked at how easily they appeared to have let the friend go. Witness sees two guys in the alley? Friend’s polygraph test results come back suspicious? I’d have sweated the guy.

If there was a good motive for Barnett, what was it? I have never heard one. And if there was a good motive for the friend, what was that?

You say RPD didn’t get a hair from the friend for comparison purposes. Well we don’t know if they did or did not. I agree with you they should have. And they certainly had the chance to ask for a sample or just remove one from the chair he sat in. If they didn’t they should have!

Bottom line for me is the RPD has lied about the evidence in this case. Saying the hair was blonde to match Barnett when the FBI says it was brown. Then we have the early reports from the RPD that say the confession letter writer was the killer because he knew details that had not been released, then years later when a jailhouse informant turned them onto Barnett, they backtracked on everything pointing to Zodiac and said all the letters came from cranks.

Go to google and type in "jailhouse informant" and "wrongful conviction".

California just signed a law barring jailhouse snitch testinmony unless it is backed by physical evidence, because false testimony from jailhouse informants have been responsible for hundreds of false convictions. Of all the convictions overturned by new DNA evidence, at least 15% were found to have involved utterly false and invented testimony from jailhouse informants or informants seeking to reduce charges or prison time.

Was Barnett really playing basketball and then Cheri called him, and then did he really shout out "That bitch is going to the library!" I say no way. False story by a jailhouse informant. It makes no sense at all. Its contrived and melodramatic and rings false. Why would she tell him she was at the library? Why would he care? Why would he shout it out for several people to hear? Why did nobody else report this? Why did Cheri herself never reveal any concerns about Barnett? Why did no other friends of Cheri or Barnett ever report any of this?

For me personally these reports show that the four hairs in a blood clot almost certainly were from Cheri’s killer, the killer was not Barnett, and since all the other evidence in the case IMO points strongly to Zodiac as the probable killer, that means for me these hairs and this mtDNA are very likley from Zodiac. I am going to use what contacts I have and what energy I can muster to try to get them compared to my POI, other good POI’s and DNA from other unsolved cases. I think this is the best evidence we have.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:29 am

Maybe she gave a funny look to whoever killed her…maybe she brushed him off in high school.

***

There was an 18 year old girl murdered in Berkeley in 1963. Very similar to the Bates case. Her case was very close to Paul Avery. Her name was Judy Williamson (thanks bentley for bringing it to my attention–I am going to start a new thread)

Turns out the guy who killed her (stabbed to death with a small knife) had gone to high school with her and attended college with her. Don’t know what his problem was with her–I think they may have dated. He apparently offered her a ride…(in his white covertable–hid out in L.A.)

He confessed 14 years later. Don’t think even he understood why he did it.

So my point being…motive? Could be anything.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:37 am

Sure, people kill for all kinds of reasons and sometimes no real reason at all.

I am just saying IMO there is no real credible evidence against Barnett, I don’t find jailhouse informants credible, I find much of what RPD and the informant here have to say as not credible and IMO the FBI reports completely exonerate Barnett.

The handwriting, letter, word usage, spelling, MO and circumstantial evidence IMO shows Zodiac very likely killed Bates. IMO also the mtDNA evidence and the circumstances show that the four hairs on a blood clot in her hand came from her killer during the struggle. And these brown hairs were not from Barnett and do not match his mtDNA, therefor IMO he is cleared. If others want to continue to investigate him of course they are free to do so. I think this mtDNA is from the Zodiac and I am going to use what little influence, contacts and connections I have to try to get the comparisons done.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:32 am

Good points everybody…The only thing I am sure of in my own mind, is that Barnett did not kill Bates, oR AT LEAST, didnt supply the DNA found in evidence. Whether he was there at the murder, I dont think so. Personally, I think her killer COULD have been Z, whomever Z is.

I strongly believe that ALL of the Bates letters were from Z, and if the confession letter really included more info then anybody besides the killer would know, then her killer was likely Z

mike_r, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:54 am

Hi-

The Bates murder was much more explicitly sexual in its overtones than any Z murder. I saw someone write that it was only 22 degrees at LHR, so we can’t assess whether or not Z might have been interested in sexual assault that night, or that he did not have time because he may have seen approaching lights on LHR. But that misses the point. A sexual killer will kill in situations where he will by design have plenty of time to accomplish the things that "turn him on." Even when Z tied up the kids at Berryessa, he did not torture or sexually abuse Shepard. He simply stabbed them and walked away.

He killed in places and in manners that say that he was not a sexual killer.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:45 am

Hi-

The Bates murder was much more explicitly sexual in its overtones than any Z murder. I saw someone write that it was only 22 degrees at LHR, so we can’t assess whether or not Z might have been interested in sexual assault that night, or that he did not have time because he may have seen approaching lights on LHR. But that misses the point. A sexual killer will kill in situations where he will by design have plenty of time to accomplish the things that "turn him on." Even when Z tied up the kids at Berryessa, he did not torture or sexually abuse Shepard. He simply stabbed them and walked away.

He killed in places and in manners that say that he was not a sexual killer.

Mike

He didnt sexually assault Cheri Jo either.(or should I say, her killer didnt)

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:17 pm

Hi-

The Bates murder was much more explicitly sexual in its overtones than any Z murder. I saw someone write that it was only 22 degrees at LHR, so we can’t assess whether or not Z might have been interested in sexual assault that night, or that he did not have time because he may have seen approaching lights on LHR. But that misses the point. A sexual killer will kill in situations where he will by design have plenty of time to accomplish the things that "turn him on." Even when Z tied up the kids at Berryessa, he did not torture or sexually abuse Shepard. He simply stabbed them and walked away.

He killed in places and in manners that say that he was not a sexual killer.

Mike

He didnt sexually assault Cheri Jo either.(or should I say, her killer didnt)

Could be because she was a tough young woman and fought.

The confession letter also reads to me as having sexual overtones. Nothing I ever read except the "getting your rocks off" had those vibes. I also believe if one had the "urge" to murder a woman the way Cheri Jo was murdered, you wouldn’t switch it up to quick gun shots and walk away. There is something about the physical "hands on". LB aside–but even that was different.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:21 pm

Let’s not forget that a guy was seen in the area of the attck hovering in the shadows,and he even said hi or nodded supposdely at a girl that walked by shortly before the murder. Me personally,if I had just said Hi to somebody, and was hiding in the shadows,I wouldnt kill somebody just a bit later as I would seem like a logical suspect. Could be that who ever killed Bates,just wanted to talk to her. Or maybe he wanted to take her to get help for her car and then attack her elsewhere. Things just might have gone wrong.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Let’s not forget that a guy was seen in the area of the attck hovering in the shadows,and he even said hi or nodded supposdely at a girl that walked by shortly before the murder. Me personally,if I had just said Hi to somebody, and was hiding in the shadows,I wouldnt kill somebody just a bit later as I would seem like a logical suspect. Could be that who ever killed Bates,just wanted to talk to her. Or maybe he wanted to take her to get help for her car and then attack her elsewhere. Things just might have gone wrong.

Makes me wonder why, if his intention (and hers) was a ride, what happened in that short distance? Why not get her in the car and take her to a more isolated area? Was there even a car? Is that when Cheri figured something was wrong?

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:47 pm

Let’s not forget that a guy was seen in the area of the attck hovering in the shadows,and he even said hi or nodded supposdely at a girl that walked by shortly before the murder. Me personally,if I had just said Hi to somebody, and was hiding in the shadows,I wouldnt kill somebody just a bit later as I would seem like a logical suspect. Could be that who ever killed Bates,just wanted to talk to her. Or maybe he wanted to take her to get help for her car and then attack her elsewhere. Things just might have gone wrong.

Makes me wonder why, if his intention (and hers) was a ride, what happened in that short distance? Why not get her in the car and take her to a more isolated area? Was there even a car? Is that when Cheri figured something was wrong?

I really dont think she would have hung out in a dark area,with no people,if she didnt know her killer in some fashion. Boyfriend/Classmate/Brother of one of her female Friends,etc
A witness stated that when she pulled into the lot,she was followed closely by another car. Also, after the screams were heard, people reported hearing a car start up,so I think there was likely a car.

RE; the flashlight(s) people supposedly saw,I find it hard to believe that you would come back to a crime scene with a flashlight(S) and draw attention to yourself like that. Seems like a highly ricky venture.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:35 pm

Often times when a woman is killed, friends and family say she would not have gone off with a stranger, but it happens time and time again. If the killer is clean cut, dressed well, speaks well and friendly, many woman will trust him, especially if they are stranded and he offers to help them with their car. My POI approached a student who was a complete stranger at a Idaho campus, and I think because he looked so clean cut and normal, she trusted him and they walked and talked for an hour!

And there are many, many documented cases of serial killers approaching woman who are strangers and getting them in their cars. Remember this is 1966 and I think people were a little more trusting and even naive back then. This woman got in the car of the man who IMO may well have been the Bates killer/Zodiac.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:08 pm

Too bad she didn’t describe the car.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:58 pm

Too bad she didn’t describe the car.

Yeah, good point. Many of these articles are like that….very lacking in details.

Ak, you mentioned that women were trusting and would go off with a stranger. Well i understand that logic and agree with it to a point, I also have to take into account that she spent a good amount of time with this person there in the dark. Thats where I disagree,and think she likely knew him

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:36 pm

I truly believe she would have gone back into the library before walking down a dark alley for a ride with a stranger. I still say she would have tried to get ahold of her Daddy! "Dad, my car won’t start!"

What would she have done if it really wouldn’t start–not due to the hands of a stranger? Gone back inside right?

I think she knew the person, enough to walk off, but I bet you she had womanly instincts telling her something wasn’t right and she went anyway…maybe out of politeness.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:43 pm

I truly believe she would have gone back into the library before walking down a dark alley for a ride with a stranger. I still say she would have tried to get ahold of her Daddy! "Dad, my car won’t start!"

What would she have done if it really wouldn’t start–not due to the hands of a stranger? Gone back inside right?

I think she knew the person, enough to walk off, but I bet you she had womanly instincts telling her something wasn’t right and she went anyway…maybe out of politeness.

I agree with alot of this Tahoe, but Would she likely stand in the dark talking for a pretty good length of time with a stranger?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:05 pm

I truly believe she would have gone back into the library before walking down a dark alley for a ride with a stranger. I still say she would have tried to get ahold of her Daddy! "Dad, my car won’t start!"

What would she have done if it really wouldn’t start–not due to the hands of a stranger? Gone back inside right?

I think she knew the person, enough to walk off, but I bet you she had womanly instincts telling her something wasn’t right and she went anyway…maybe out of politeness.

I agree with alot of this Tahoe, but Would she likely stand in the dark talking for a pretty good length of time with a stranger?

Is this comment in regards to the 10:30pm screams? I know many of us have discussed this before, but maybe the person who said 10:30 just hadn’t "fallen back" their clocks yet.

Makes in 9:30pm…the time the library closed right? ??

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:51 pm

I forgot about the time change. Also,we had discussed the time on the watch found at the scene too.

Also reminds me about the phonecall. The writer(typer)of the confession letter said "I did make that call to you". That is very Zodiac-like if its true. There is no mention of details regarding that incident. Something else Riverside swept under the rug?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Is this comment in regards to the 10:30pm screams? I know many of us have discussed this before, but maybe the person who said 10:30 just hadn’t "fallen back" their clocks yet.

Makes in 9:30pm…the time the library closed right? ??

So that would mean this person(s) went all day Sunday without turning the clocks back? Sounds doubtful, and if so hopefully once they realized it they contacted LE again.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:52 pm

Is this comment in regards to the 10:30pm screams? I know many of us have discussed this before, but maybe the person who said 10:30 just hadn’t "fallen back" their clocks yet.

Makes in 9:30pm…the time the library closed right? ??

So that would mean this person(s) went all day Sunday without turning the clocks back? Sounds doubtful, and if so hopefully once they realized it they contacted LE again.

Good point, not to mention you would think the RPD would make it a point to verify that their clock was properly turned back

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Also reminds me about the phonecall. The writer(typer)of the confession letter said "I did make that call to you". That is very Zodiac-like if its true. There is no mention of details regarding that incident. Something else Riverside swept under the rug?

Apparently, RPD are withholding information on that phone call. They haven’t even stated to whom those calls were made.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:17 pm

Is this comment in regards to the 10:30pm screams? I know many of us have discussed this before, but maybe the person who said 10:30 just hadn’t "fallen back" their clocks yet.

Makes in 9:30pm…the time the library closed right? ??

So that would mean this person(s) went all day Sunday without turning the clocks back? Sounds doubtful, and if so hopefully once they realized it they contacted LE again.

Good point, not to mention you would think the RPD would make it a point to verify that their clock was properly turned back

I always turn our clocks back (or ahead) on Sunday night. Can’t tell you how many times I forgot to do it at all and arrived to work too early/late! I know it’s happened to a lot of you too.

Just think it’s not outside the realm of possibility.

It’s more reasonable to me to think that, then Cheri was gone for exactly one hour, brought back and killed 200 ft. from her car.

Nin, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:20 pm

I requested,and received from the FBI, any documents related to the case of Cheri Jo Bates. Today, they mailed me the requested documents. These documents(a handful of pages)pretty much detail the evidence found at the scene,specifically the physical evidence, also,mention a cigarette butt,etc. Clearly states that the skin& hair found under Cheri’s nails,belonged to somebody with BROWN hair. Most of all,and clearly, they EXCLUDE Riverside’s suspect as being her killer based on a NON-DNA match ,something that has already been known for a long time. Good to see some of this stuff in black & white. I will post them on here later tonight for anybody that is interested.

Sorry for the delay…as promised here they are. I am not sure what order they are supposed to be in,but the last page says it all, which is Riverside’s suspect, does NOT match the DNA found uner Cheri’s nails.

Awesome work, morf!! Just saw the files. Thank you very much for sharing these documents!

-Nin

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:29 pm

I requested,and received from the FBI, any documents related to the case of Cheri Jo Bates. Today, they mailed me the requested documents. These documents(a handful of pages)pretty much detail the evidence found at the scene,specifically the physical evidence, also,mention a cigarette butt,etc. Clearly states that the skin& hair found under Cheri’s nails,belonged to somebody with BROWN hair. Most of all,and clearly, they EXCLUDE Riverside’s suspect as being her killer based on a NON-DNA match ,something that has already been known for a long time. Good to see some of this stuff in black & white. I will post them on here later tonight for anybody that is interested.

Sorry for the delay…as promised here they are. I am not sure what order they are supposed to be in,but the last page says it all, which is Riverside’s suspect, does NOT match the DNA found uner Cheri’s nails.

Awesome work, morf!! Just saw the files. Thank you very much for sharing these documents!

-Nin

No problem. The stuff I have posted on this forum after getting it via FOIA request is a drop in the bucket of what I actually requested. I have requested files on dozens of questioned Zodiac documents & reports, and on a handful of Zodiac suspects & victims. Everytime i get a thick envelope from the Dept of Justice,I get excited. On the other hand, a thin envelope usually is bad news…and in some cases, I have not ever received a response

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:32 pm

So that would mean this person(s) went all day Sunday without turning the clocks back? Sounds doubtful, and if so hopefully once they realized it they contacted LE again.

Good point, not to mention you would think the RPD would make it a point to verify that their clock was properly turned back

I always turn our clocks back (or ahead) on Sunday night. Can’t tell you how many times I forgot to do it at all and arrived to work too early/late! I know it’s happened to a lot of you too.

Just think it’s not outside the realm of possibility.

It’s more reasonable to me to think that, then Cheri was gone for exactly one hour, brought back and killed 200 ft. from her car.

I always set mine Sat night before i go to bed,since it kicks in overnight Saturday into Sunday. Tahoe,if you are setting it on Sunday night,you are really doing it late(not to mention confusing yourself for any tv shows you may want to watch)

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:10 pm

Yes, 9:30 would make more sense as far as Cheri staying at the Library until closing, which I believe was 9:00. But we don’t even know if she was there that long.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:22 am

Hi-

There are some people who are able to put others at ease as soon as they meet them. This guy had just played a heroic role for CJB. He came out of nowhere when she was alone in the darkness with a car that was not going to start, made efforts to "fix" her car and then offered to take her home, to a gas station, etc. I don’t see it as being impossible that if he presented himself as being completely non-threatening, she might have accompanied him back to where he said his car was.

Mike

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:03 am

I agree, and have been wanting to mention that. America was different back then. Kids walked and rode bikes to school, teenagers hitch-hiked and caught rides with strangers, and for the most part, safely.

As a young gas station mechanic, in my free time I often stopped to help stranded motorists, particularly females in my age range. In fact, you could usually count on about 3 other guys stopping to fight over who got to fix the car and hopefully garner a date. The average Joe stood a better chance of fixing a leaky carburetor with a screwdriver, today most breakdowns require a tow to the dealer.

In today’s terms, it’s like fixing a young lass’s Ipad at Starbucks.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:46 am

Given that hair color changes over time, and with exposure to sun light, and given the problems of subjective perceptions of color and word meanings, I can give a little slack to RPD for saying the hair was "sandy blonde", which happens to match local suspect "Barnett", while the FBI report says it is "brown." It is still wrong, but giving them the benefit of the doubt perhaps it was just a mistake.

Far more troubling is that even after the DNA comparison which excludes Barnett, the RPD still kept the focus on him as a suspect, and refused to pursue the possible Zodiac connection to the case. I can personally state that in 2009 and 2010 Detective Steve Shumway of the RPD refused to look at or consider evidence pointing to the Zodiac as the killer of Cheri. They are relying on a jailhouse informant and disregarding the DNA evidence, plus all the handwriting, word usage, MO and other evidence pointing to Zodiac.

Also the report indicates FOUR hairs found on the blod clot in Cheri’s hand. IMO it could be possible ONE hair came from a police officer or lab tech. But not FOUR hairs on a BLOOD CLOT.

I see that a person claiming the whole Zodiac case is a hoax says the mtDNA used to compare to local suspect ‘Barnett’ was aged and faulty. These reports show that is false as they show a good sample was obtained and Barnett was conclusively cleared as a nonmatch.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:16 pm

I can personally state that in 2009 and 2010 Detective Steve Shumway of the RPD refused to look at or consider evidence pointing to the Zodiac as the killer of Cheri.

Maybe because as early as October of 1969 they compared prints with Napa and San Francisco. And apparently again in November of 1970, they looked into it.

While I agree, keeping Barnett at the head of the pack is wrong, I also think it’s apparent ( http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … to-napa-pd ) Zodiac was highly considered.

With all do respect, can you imagine how many people have contacted them with "my guy did it and here is my proof"?

RPD have stuff from their guy and SF and Napa have stuff from their guy. It didn’t match.

For folks to provide them with the many other reasons why "their guy" is the man. I’m sure it get real old.

Maybe if people would approach RPD with their suspect as CHERI’S killer and NOT THE ZODIAC….you might get somewhere.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:30 pm

Hi-

There are some people who are able to put others at ease as soon as they meet them. This guy had just played a heroic role for CJB. He came out of nowhere when she was alone in the darkness with a car that was not going to start, made efforts to "fix" her car and then offered to take her home, to a gas station, etc. I don’t see it as being impossible that if he presented himself as being completely non-threatening, she might have accompanied him back to where he said his car was.

Mike

I agree, and have been wanting to mention that. America was different back then. Kids walked and rode bikes to school, teenagers hitch-hiked and caught rides with strangers, and for the most part, safely…

I have heard this mentioned for a long time. While I agree somewhat with both statements, I’m a bit on the fence.

Was it a different time? I read an awful lot of those old newspapers! I think girls were murdered more back then then they are today! Murder after murder after murder! All those nurses, the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders….the list goes on and on.

Not long after Cheri was killed you have the girl who was picked up and told by her "ride" about Cheri. She was almost raped. This was in the papers.

I can tell you from a woman’s standpoint, that at night if your car broke down like with Kathleen Johns–out in the boonies–you might just look at that guy as your saviour and accept the ride. KJ herself said this. But, I am pretty darn sure a woman that didn’t know a man that came up out of the dark offering a ride, "my car is down this dark alley around the corner" she would NOT be so easy going and walk off with him. Not right outside the school and that close to home. No way. –Just my take of course.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Tahoe I tried to approach RPD as diplomatically as possible. I did not focus on my poi but rather included info on possible ties to another college library murder Aardsma and the RH suspect Rick Haefner, plus other college girl murders, a little on TK as Z and more on Z as an unsub and evidence tieing him to Bates. Det Shumway told me point blank Cheri was killed by someone she knew and he had zero interest in any other evidence and would not consider it or even look at it. That is what I found to be a wrong headed approach.

I contrast that with the fact that other agencies and investigators, including SFPD, CCCSD, OCDA and FBI, have been respectful and found my research interesting and asked questions about and said they welcomed more. I served as an MP in the Army Reserve, worked as a probation officer then went to law school and have worked as a criminal defense attorney. I included this info as well as the names of detectives and FBI agents who could vouch for the quality of my research work, and Shumway was still not interested and just refused to consider any possibility other than Barnett, even though Barnett was cleared by the DNA test!

Also you said "RPD have stuff from their guy and SF and Napa have stuff from their guy. It didn’t match."

I disagree. We don’t know if any of that is from "their guy". We have unknown prints on Bates car, some or none of which may be from her killer, and unknown prints on Stine’s cab and a Napa payphone, some or none of which may be from Zodiac. A nonmatch on these prints is not definitive.

I do understand the Z case has become a circus and detectives like Shumway probably get a lot of stuff and some of it is from hoaxers and hucksters. Yet other departments have methods to seperate the wheat from the chaff. It can be done. My experience with RPD is that there was not a serious desire to solve the case and they were more interested in downplaying Zodiac publicity than keeping an open mind to all suspects.

patinky, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:37 pm

Tahoe said: "….I can tell you from a woman’s standpoint, that at night if your car broke down like with Kathleen Johns–out in the boonies–you might just look at that guy as your saviour and accept the ride. KJ herself said this. But, I am pretty darn sure a woman that didn’t know a man that came up out of the dark offering a ride, "my car is down this dark alley around the corner" she would NOT be so easy going and walk off with him. Not right outside the school and that close to home. No way. –Just my take of course."

As a woman who was in her twenties in the late 1960s, I agree with the above. Where I grew up everyone knew each other and if someone offered to give you a lift and you didn’t know them then you were likely cautious enough to say no thanks. You knew everyone who lived anywhere near you or up and down your road or throughout your town and most of your county, so the chances of meeting a stranger were slim to none. California culture may have been different.

Looking at what is publicly known about the Bates case, it seems to me the offender likely knew Cheri Jo. I’d guess either a professor, friend, classmate or neighbor. I can’t see Cheri Jo taking a risk if there were options. I see opportunities for other help than to walk off with a rank stranger.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:55 pm

Agree or disagree about the safety of it, the fact remains that teenagers hitch-hiked back then. I did it and I picked up many, women and men, and I helped many a stranded motorist. Coincidentally I picked up a young woman hitch-hiking a few months ago out in the country. She had been in an accident the day before and was meeting a tow truck where her car was stranded. I drove her about 15 miles in the direction I was headed. Felt strange to do that again, probably hadn’t happened in 25 years. She was from Bolinas though , and a lot may have depended on where you were from or raised. Heck, if it wasn’t for hitch hiking the Summer of Love probably wouldn’t have happened.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:58 pm

IMO it could be possible ONE hair came from a police officer or lab tech. But not FOUR hairs on a BLOOD CLOT.

I can’t believe anyone is so silly as to suggest the evidence might have come from a cop.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:02 pm

In the recreation the only person missing was a bearded young man and as he was apparently not known or recognized by anyone this prime suspect in Cheri’s murder was probably NOT a studet or locl person and was very likely a stranger.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:16 pm

In the recreation the only person missing was a bearded young man and as he was apparently not known or recognized by anyone this prime suspect in Cheri’s murder was probably NOT a studet or locl person and was very likely a stranger.

‘Not a student’ I can buy. ‘Not a local’? Nope.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:06 pm

I know that a few people here have said that women were so trusting back then, and you wouldnt be as suspicious of a man offering help like you would be today,but then I read about all of the various assorted serial killers, murders ,and missing persons from back then in CA, and I think to myself, it doesnt sound like it was that safe. Her case reminds me alot of the Cindy Lee Mellin case. Her abductor set a trap, and waited for her to come out. He then offered to help,even going as far as to jack the car up. They found the tire was deliberatley punctured. The Mellin case is very much to me like Bates or Johns, but even more so like Bates.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:17 pm

Agree or disagree about the safety of it, the fact remains that teenagers hitch-hiked back then.

Absolutely, some did. No argument there! All the murders back then are most likely part of the reason it’s illegal today.

I just think hitchhiking is a different thing is all….and takes a different kind of person. Whether Cheri was that kind of person, I don’t know.

In the recreation the only person missing was a bearded young man and as he was apparently not known or recognized by anyone this prime suspect in Cheri’s murder was probably NOT a studet or locl person and was very likely a stranger.

‘Not a student’ I can buy. ‘Not a local’? Nope.

Not sure how observant those folks were. They noticed some guy with a beard missing, but didn’t notice Cheri having probems starting her car…they didn’t notice her car being there and she not around? No one said anything? That didn’t seem odd to anyone?

I do believe Cheri knew her killer. Maybe the term "knew of" would be better. The guy who brought milk once a week, the guy who deposited money at the bank she worked at, or most appealing to me…someone from her church. She was there that morning. We have "The Confession", and whoever wrote it spoke of "going to the slaughter like a lamb".

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:42 pm

The church and the bank should be looked at more. Also, the construction crews who were working on the renovations at the college.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:53 pm

The church and the bank should be looked at more. Also, the construction crews who were working on the renovations at the college.

Good idea! Also, ‘if’ the Bates desktop poem was written by Z, he had to be either an RCC student, Teacher,Custodain, or some other worker there, perhaps a construction worker that snuck into a class. I lean towards student. One thing I noticed going thru the RCC yearbooks, not all of the students are 18-22, I ave found several that are 3,4,5 years older.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:29 am

I got to thinking (ah-oh)…

If it was someone she knew it would seem he would had to have an association with the school.

The only thing there pretty much is the school. It doesn’t appear to be a place someone would randomly park or just happen to be there, ya-know? Otherwise I would think that would draw big-time suspicion. Like, "what the heck are you doing here and why did you park back there?"

Was the street parking full that evening? Or at least close to it? Unless the parking lot was full I would think it odd for someone to park where he said he parked. Again, "why’d you park back there?".

He obviously stalked Cheri. He knew he wanted her. Did he follow her from her home? Did he just happen to notice her driving down the road? Did someone find out she was heading there?

Maybe they should have plucked the hair of every guy in that library that day.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:35 am

I got to thinking (ah-oh)…

If it was someone she knew it would seem he would had to have an association with the school.

The only thing there pretty much is the school. It doesn’t appear to be a place someone would randomly park or just happen to be there, ya-know? Otherwise I would think that would draw big-time suspicion. Like, "what the heck are you doing here and why did you park back there?"

Was the street parking full that evening? Or at least close to it? Unless the parking lot was full I would think it odd for someone to park where he said he parked. Again, "why’d you park back there?".

He obviously stalked Cheri. He knew he wanted her. Did he follow her from her home? Did he just happen to notice her driving down the road? Did someone find out she was heading there?

Maybe they should have plucked the hair of every guy in that library that day.

All good questions Tahoe. She was attractive, so a stranger may have seen her, and made the choice he would stalk her(although I dont think it was a stranger). Maybe they knew that you could get into a VW if the doors are locked since the hood could be opened from outside if the car was locked. A couple things I remember, is that one witness said she drove in thru an alley area, and that she was followed closely by a 65-66 bronze oldsmobile(if memory serves). Also, a little off topic, but just writing it because I heard it one the Graysmith audio book yesterday when I was driving, not one, BUT two separate people heard screams. One was between 10:15 & 10:45 and the other scream heard was by a man around 10:30 who heard 2 separate screams. You cant tell me that two separate people forgot to adjust their clocks, I dont buy that at all. The earliest she could have been killed was 9pm(acording to the yellow book,not sure if that is based on the autopsy report or what). Although she was in the library for a few hours, her friends that were there do not remember seeing her which is odd. If she left the library between 9pm(the earliest she could have been killed), and 9:30pm(when it closed), and then the screams were heard between 10:15 & 10:45, then that tells me she spent between 45 minutes, and 1hr45min with her killer. There’s no way that Cheri is hanging out with somebody she doesnt know for that long in a dark alley. No way.

patinky, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:02 am

It’s been many years since I studied this case so I’d appreciate it if someone could clear up something for me. Wasn’t Bates’ car parked on the street and the offender’s car parked in the alley? TIA

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:40 am

We don’t even know if the perp had a car.

patinky, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:28 am

Was Bates’ car parked on the street and the offender used the ploy that his car was parked in the alley? Regardless, if her car was parked on the street (and I believe it was if memory serves me) and she went with him to or through the alley, I think it suggests she knew her killer or at least was acquainted.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:46 am

From BENTLEY:

The RCC newspaper on 11/4/66 reported "Police spotted Miss Bates’ lime green Volkswagen on Terracina Avenue. They speculated she had been attacked as she walked from the RCC library to her car." It goes on to say the killer may have hid in one of the driveways along Terracina.

Terracina Ave. runs next to the library. In the two photos mentioned, the car appears to be parked off the street. It may be at the police station, and that may be a police car behind it.

I’m no expert on this case though, there may be conflicting information.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:10 pm

Yes, that photo is @ the police dept. There was no parking like that on Terracina.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:27 pm

Was Bates’ car parked on the street and the offender used the ploy that his car was parked in the alley? Regardless, if her car was parked on the street (and I believe it was if memory serves me) and she went with him to or through the alley, I think it suggests she knew her killer or at least was acquainted.

I think this might suggest he was not parked in the alley:

Sorry so small.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:41 pm

Pretty gutsy move messing with the VW while parked on the street. Suggests a couple of things to me:

He had some idea that CJB wouldn’t be returning to the car to see him. Maybe just as she parked and headed into the library, maybe he made sure she was seated and reading in the library.

May have been disguised by wearing mechanic’s overalls.

Reports vary on whether the points and condenser were removed from her car, parts that would require a few minutes to remove, or just the coil wire being ripped out, which could be done while holding the hood open with the other hand and the job completed in a few seconds. Just as effective for what he had in mind. Sounds more likely given the exposure.

May have had to stand around for a few minutes for cars or pedestrians passing by.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:27 pm

Reports vary on whether the points and condenser were removed from her car, parts that would require a few minutes to remove, or just the coil wire being ripped out, which could be done while holding the hood open with the other hand and the job completed in a few seconds.

Where are you getting the part about condenser removal? I thought it was pretty well-established that the wire was ripped out and nothing more…

patinky, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:39 pm

Thanks everyone!

This guy had to be comfortable and familiar with the surroundings and have a place to wait that was either totally concealed or else he had good reason for being on the street should someone see him tampering with her car. He had to have watched her park and get out of her car in order to know which car to tinker with. It was a planned killing. His car or domicile had to be close by and easily gotten to without fear of being seen.

I am convinced it was a young man she knew or was acquainted with. I’m still on the fence about it being Zodiac but based on what is known publicly, there is no reason I can see to exclude the Zodiac.

Was this considered a fairly safe town? In my area, college towns have unique atmospheres, much like a small city within a city. The campus is like it’s own little town, or at least was back in the 60s and 70s. There were no malls or many restaurants to go to so most stayed in or very near campus. Is this how RCC was back then?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:43 pm

Reports vary on whether the points and condenser were removed from her car, parts that would require a few minutes to remove, or just the coil wire being ripped out, which could be done while holding the hood open with the other hand and the job completed in a few seconds.

Where are you getting the part about condenser removal? I thought it was pretty well-established that the wire was ripped out and nothing more…

Jake Wark. I agree with you though, probably just the coil wire.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:55 pm

Hmm, interesting. Jake says that the distributor coil and condenser were removed, and the wire was also disconnected.

In any case, RPD and the FBI state that the detail about the wire being disconnected was not reported in any news media at the time:

http://zodiackiller.com/FBIReport1.html

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:30 pm

Hmm, interesting. Jake says that the distributor coil and condenser were removed, and the wire was also disconnected.

In any case, RPD and the FBI state that the detail about the wire being disconnected was not reported in any news media at the time:

http://zodiackiller.com/FBIReport1.html

Unfortunately, it was mentioned in the paper the next day.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:20 pm

I know I’ve posted this before Nacht but I don’t remember where. There was an article written right after the murder that said the coil wire had been pulled from Cheri’s engine. I checked with Bentley and the middle wire is the coil wire.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:18 pm

We also have confession letter statements about kicking her in the head a phone call a knife breaking and other things. At the time RPD said the letter had things only the killer would know at that the letter writer was definitley and without question the killer. Decades later with their jailhouse informant implicating Barnett they backed away from this but IMO the letter writer is the killer.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:31 pm

AK, you’re up on this stuff and I don’t feel like searching:

Who said Barnett’s Timex watch went missing and when?

Who said Barnett made incriminating statements, how many said this, what did they say and when?

Who failed the poly and when? Did Barnett take a poly?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:45 pm

As far as I know it all comes from the jailhouse informant who says he was friends with Barnett. He says Barnett tearfully confessed to killing Cheri that Cheri called him and Barnett stormed off the basketball court yelling ‘that bitch is going to the library!’ and all the rest of it. Not sure about the lie detector tests when my clients pass the prosecutor says they are wortless and inadmissable in curt when they fail they say ‘see he is guilty tell him to confess and we will give him a good deal.’. Also police characterise results how they wish. Allen passed two polygraphs while Cheney did not pass his first test yet they believed Cheney over Allen. To me the dna test is conclusive that the rpd informant was a liar and that Barnett is innocent.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:36 pm

AK, you’re up on this stuff and I don’t feel like searching:

Who said Barnett’s Timex watch went missing and when?

Who said Barnett made incriminating statements, how many said this, what did they say and when?

Who failed the poly and when? Did Barnett take a poly?

Timex watch….cant remember that

Think the incriminating statements may have been regarding "that bitch is going to the library"..and then taking off suddenly

A friend of Barnett’s took a lie detector test stating that Barnett had admitted he killed her(maybe thats the incriminating statement). The Friend may have said that he went back to the crime scene to help him,but I cant recall. The friend took,and passed,a lie detector test HOWEVER, he failed certain questions that may have incriminated himself.

Regarding paint on the watch…
maybe a dumb question,but could they have examined the paint on the watch to see if they could tell what kind of paint it was? House, car, model,etc? Maybe they could have narrowed down more clues based on the paint. Where it was made & sold, the brand,etc

I am going to go back thru photos of ‘Barnett’ in the 66 class yearbook and see if he can be seen wearing a watch.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:44 pm

As I remember it was latex… house paint. Light green I’m thinking?

There was definitely something somewhere about his missing a Timex watch. By his family even IIRC. Talk about family values.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:17 pm

Unfortunately, it was mentioned in the paper the next day.

I know I’ve posted this before Nacht but I don’t remember where. There was an article written right after the murder that said the coil wire had been pulled from Cheri’s engine. I checked with Bentley and the middle wire is the coil wire.

Huh. Curiouser and curiouser. At risk of sounding silly, would the coil wire being the middle one be something that Tom, Dick and Harry would know?

More info on Barnett here, by the way:

http://zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Huh. Curiouser and curiouser. At risk of sounding silly, would the coil wire being the middle one be something that Tom, Dick and Harry would know?

http://zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html

Not silly at all, and tough to say. I’d guess maybe 50%. Knowing what little we know about Z in that respect (aside from this case), photoelectric switches for the bus bomb, the leaf springs on the clock, fooling with KJ’s wheel, I’d say probably better chance yes than no.

An English major who took the bus to school, maybe not. A guy keeping his old car on the road, probably.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:30 pm

Someone who had read that article might have looked into where the coil wire was if they didn’t know…..

Cars were a lot simpler back then.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:11 pm

Oh, now I see what you’re getting at, didn’t read that article.

The article perfectly states what someone with car knowledge would say or do, "yank the coil wire". The Confession letter on the other hand, says "I pulled the middle wire from the distributor". This is definitively not what someone with car knowledge would say. It’s a coil wire, plain and simple, calling it the middle wire down at the gas station would get you laughed at unless you were female (no offense). In comparative terms, it’s analogous to saying "the middle bar on the keyboard" instead of the space bar. So who knows, maybe that’s a point in favor of a fake Confession letter.

BTW the ‘coil wire’ does run to the middle of the distributor, it unplugs at either the coil end or the distributor end and accomplishes the same thing, so technically the Confession letter is correct, it’s just the phrasing that is funny.

Another funny thing I noticed in the Confession letter was "I waited for her in the library and followed her out after about two minuts (sp.). The battery must have been about dead by then I then offered to help". Must have been about dead? What was she doing if she wasn’t busy trying to crank it over? Now that sounds made up…

Seagull, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:23 am

Being a female I’m not sure what you mean. Why does that sound made up to you?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:50 am

Yes it is a bit confusing, maybe I’m the one who’s confused.

The perp watches Cheri leave the library, waits a couple minutes, then heads out to the street. At that point I would expect to see and hear Cheri attempting to start the car. Either the engine is turning over or it isn’t. There is no "the battery must have been about dead by then", there is no assumption, either it is turning the engine over or it isn’t. The statement sounds more like what one would expect to happen than what if fact happened. And this could also mean the perp is writing as if he’s still in the library, waits two minutes and then "the battery must be about dead by then", time to head out there. But that’s not the way it reads to me, could just be grammar or semantics. Maybe he just means "I waited two minutes until the battery must have been dead by then".

Seagull, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:54 am

Since the coil wire was pulled would the connection to the battery have been lost and rendered the battery unable to turn over?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:06 am

No, coil wire will not disable the starter. She probably cranked and cranked and cranked with nary a pop until the battery started to give out and it began cranking slower and slower. The mechanical aspect of the plot is correct, just trying to figure out if the Confession writer really had a good grasp of it. That "middle wire of the distributor" again in not what someone who knows the system would say, but it is something one with very basic knowledge might say, or perhaps someone he asked about it told him "just pull the middle wire", or maybe he just simplified it for the letter for some reason.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:12 am

Okay Thanks! That’s what I thought but when you said it sounded made up I was thinking I was wrong.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:14 am

Would/could the alternator have been affected in any way?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:22 am

No effect to the alternator either. The job of the coil and distributor is to make the spark plugs spark and ignite the gas to make the engine run. The starter, charging system, lights, radio, horn etc. all would be unaffected.

Geez that is one gnarly piece that Confession letter, haven’t read it in awhile. Has some Z like qualities alright, hard to believe Z spelled conscience correctly.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:00 am

No, coil wire will not disable the starter. She probably cranked and cranked and cranked with nary a pop until the battery started to give out and it began cranking slower and slower. The mechanical aspect of the plot is correct, just trying to figure out if the Confession writer really had a good grasp of it. That "middle wire of the distributor" again in not what someone who knows the system would say, but it is something one with very basic knowledge might say, or perhaps someone he asked about it told him "just pull the middle wire", or maybe he just simplified it for the letter for some reason.

If the usage of "middle wire" is somewhat off, wouldn’t that make the Confesson Letter more legit?

While all the papers I read do use the term "coil wire", I don’t actually see "Middle Wire".

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:51 am

Yes it does. To me it sounds like a younger perp, knew pulling the middle wire out would do the trick but probably not much beyond that.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:06 am

Hi-

I’ve posted this elsewhere but the Bates murder is suggestive of either a power-reassurance killer, one who developed a fantasy about Bates that came crashing down after he pulled off his ruse, lured her away and she REJECTED him, or it suggests an anger-retaliatory killer like the boyfriend, since she was rolled over face down after she died (see the fact that her feet are crossed, suggesting that she was on her back and he "kicked" her over onto her face leaving her feet crossed, as well as the stab wound to the back). That stab wound to the back suggests someone who knew her and had anger towards her.

Z was a power-assertive and is not likely to have committed this crime. all of this is from a profiler who has helped solve many cases in his career.

Mike

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:08 pm

Look at Cheri’s name. I think circling of the "i’s" isn’t so uncommon.

zodio, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sat May 05, 2012 11:08 pm

From my experience many females circle the "I"s but very very few males do.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:22 pm

Horan and others –

Mr. Horan you stated that the DNA obtained was old and unreliable.

The FBI reports obtained by Morf clearly indicate that good DNA was obtained from the hairs in Cheri Jo Bates hand, and that local suspect Barnett was EXCLUDED as being the contributor of these hairs. In other words a positive NON-MATCH.

The docs are on page 2 of this thread.

Go here to see the documents and scroll down the page about a third of the way:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … bi-reports

Whew! This isn’t a thread–it’s a full-fledged rope! Anyway, my dos centavos worth: According to Det. "Bud" Kelly (remember, this was back in ’91, before he went Alzhy, and molested girls) when I mentioned the time change that occurred the night Cheri was murdered, he said: "You know, I hadn’t thought of that." Which leads me to believe this fact might have been overlooked by RPD.
Another thing: I read somewhere that there can be considerable variation in the color of an individual’s hair. A blond man could–and probably does–have some brown hairs, and vice-versa. A sample of four hairs might not be sufficient to declare a man brown- or blond-haired with certainty.

AK Wilks : The 8th FBI document down indicates RPD told the FBI the Bates confession writer was correct about the middle wire distributor AND the phone call to RPD. The phone call info was never released to the media, so it seems the confession writer and Bates killer are very likely one and the same.

morf13, Subject: Bates FBI Reports Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: Bates FBI Reports, I cant seem to find them, thought I had them saved. Can someone post the FBI files here that directly pertain to Cheri’s case? Thanks a bunch.

UPDATE 11/13/11: Trying to keep all of the files updated and posted. Here are some more.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:03 am

This FBI memo shows that RPD seemed to think that the killer of Bates, and the confession letter were one and the same:

Also, they seem to confirm that RPD DID receive a phone call after the murder. I thought I remember them dismissing a phone call?

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:13 am

I am adding some DOJ reports for the Bates crime in the BATES section.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:09 pm

On the following link, http://vault.fbi.gov/The%20Zodiac%20Kil … %2006/view scroll down to page 162. At the bottom of that page, it clearly says that Prints in the Bates case will be compared to that of prints in the Z case.

Also, on page 162, the memo states that out of all the latent Bates case prints, only four fingerprints and three partial palm prints have NOT BEEN identified.

So my question, and surely Law enforcement knows this but has never released it, but do ANY of the prints in the Bates case match ANY of the prints in the Zodiac case???

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:58 pm

I was told no Bates case prints match Zodiac prints.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:53 pm

I was told no Bates case prints match Zodiac prints.

Yeah, this is what I’ve heard, too. No prints from any confirmed or suspected Zodiac activity match prints from any other such instance.

As for the phone call, my recollection is that RPD merely said "no comment" when questioned about it.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:26 am

Curious about this. We know newspapers aren’t always accurate. Can just a "middle wire" be torn out? Can these two statements jibe?

THE PRESS ENTERPRISE, OCT. 31, 1966 – AFTERNOON EDITION

via zk.com http://www.zodiackiller.com/BatesHeadline1.html

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:04 am

Curious about this. We know newspapers aren’t always accurate. Can just a "middle wire" be torn out? Can these two statements jibe?

THE PRESS ENTERPRISE, OCT. 31, 1966 – AFTERNOON EDITION

via zk.com http://www.zodiackiller.com/BatesHeadline1.html

I am the most mechanically challenged man you will ever meet…. , BUT, maybe Bentley can correct me if I am wrong, on a distributor, I believe there are multiple wires, with the CENTER one being connected to the coil. Therefore, I think you can disconnect the middle wire, but keep the others in place.

Here is the best photo:

With that being said, and me not being an expert, I could stull likely open the hood of an old VW (since they did not lock), and I could go in, pull a wire, then replace the cap. If somebody looked under the hood, at first glance, everything would look okay. So that tells me that while Z may have been mechanically inclined, it was not an absolute certainty. The little bit of mechanics knowledge I got, came from working at a gas station. I think Bentley could discuss this more.

, Subject: Distributor Cap Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:22 am

Actually, morf, the cap does not need to be replaced, since you don’t have to remove it. The center coil wire is easily removed from the top of the cap. A detached coil wire might not be that obvious to many… the wire could even be sufficiently loosened without detaching it completely.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:17 am

As bigZ said, pulling the coil wire is no more difficult than unplugging the toaster from the wall outlet, and not likely noticed by CJB. Doesn’t take a mechanical genius, I would guesstimate that roughly 50% of the male population could do it. A better indication of Z’s mechanical skills might be the bus bomb designs, and in particular the timer clock he described (including two detail sketches). I have seen it mentioned that books such as the Anarchist’s Cookbook describe similar bomb schemes, however I’ve not seen anything posted that was a direct match.

Eidt: I’m no psychologist, but I’ll throw out an opinion on Z and mechanics. I’ve known mechanics all my life, non of them are serial killers to my knowledge. :scratch: Mechanics are usually dumbfounded, impressed, engrossed in what makes cars, boats, elevators or whatever tick, and get their satisfaction out of making them operate properly. Their playing field is inanimate objects, not fooling around with the lives of other people. Not that Z at one time couldn’t have been a gas station employee, merchant marine, factory worker or some job with basic mechanical requirements, many thugs probably do work in those fields at some point, but I don’t think mechanics was a lifelong passion for him. Just my 2¢, likely as wrong as right.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:17 am

Thanks for the info everyone.

What about the condensor being torn out? What can you tell me about that (if it’s even true). ??

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:39 am

Takes a screwdriver, one or two screws. Less than a minute. He could have done both. It would be akin to unplugging a lamp, then taking the bulb out. Can’t turn it on (or start the car) without it. That would take a little more understanding of auto mechanics. Back then though, cars were very different, most do not even have condensers and coil wires anymore, replaced with on board computers and electronic ignitions. Then, you had do a "tune up" about every 10K miles, which consisted of replacing the points, condenser, spark plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. They were common items, available at stores such as Long’s Drugs, Sears, etc., in addition to the auto parts stores. So in comparison to today’s 100K miles before tuneups it was a different world, with more men knowing the basics of what goes on under the hood. We were taught these things in high school auto shop back then, it was not a mandatory class but just about every guy with a car took it.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:56 pm

Takes a screwdriver, one or two screws. Less than a minute. He could have done both. It would be akin to unplugging a lamp, then taking the bulb out. Can’t turn it on (or start the car) without it. That would take a little more understanding of auto mechanics. Back then though, cars were very different, most do not even have condensers and coil wires anymore, replaced with on board computers and electronic ignitions. Then, you had do a "tune up" about every 10K miles, which consisted of replacing the points, condenser, spark plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. They were common items, available at stores such as Long’s Drugs, Sears, etc., in addition to the auto parts stores. So in comparison to today’s 100K miles before tuneups it was a different world, with more men knowing the basics of what goes on under the hood. We were taught these things in high school auto shop back then, it was not a mandatory class but just about every guy with a car took it.

I have also been thinking, wasnt Cheri Jo in the library for a very short time, like 10 minutes or something? Did her attacker just get lucky and just happen to see a pretty girl &disable her car in that short window of time, or was her attacker stalking her, and perhaps followed her to the library and jumped when he saw his chance? If it was a random crime, thats one thing, but if she was stalked, then perhaps she likely knew her attacker, and perhaps her closest friends may have clues about what guys may have been stalking her.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:57 pm

Thanks bigzguy & Bentley, helped explained it. I grew up with a race car in our garage and guys always over helping my Dad work on it. As far as I know…none of them were bad guys….. just car guys. Hmmm but they did go to a lot of races, even in Riverside.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Takes a screwdriver, one or two screws. Less than a minute. He could have done both. It would be akin to unplugging a lamp, then taking the bulb out. Can’t turn it on (or start the car) without it. That would take a little more understanding of auto mechanics. Back then though, cars were very different, most do not even have condensers and coil wires anymore, replaced with on board computers and electronic ignitions. Then, you had do a "tune up" about every 10K miles, which consisted of replacing the points, condenser, spark plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor. They were common items, available at stores such as Long’s Drugs, Sears, etc., in addition to the auto parts stores. So in comparison to today’s 100K miles before tuneups it was a different world, with more men knowing the basics of what goes on under the hood. We were taught these things in high school auto shop back then, it was not a mandatory class but just about every guy with a car took it.

I have also been thinking, wasnt Cheri Jo in the library for a very short time, like 10 minutes or something? Did her attacker just get lucky and just happen to see a pretty girl &disable her car in that short window of time, or was her attacker stalking her, and perhaps followed her to the library and jumped when he saw his chance? If it was a random crime, thats one thing, but if she was stalked, then perhaps she likely knew her attacker, and perhaps her closest friends may have clues about what guys may have been stalking her.

I feel the attacker was stalking her and found the perfect timing. And yes her closest friends might know more. Girls talk to girls…jes saying.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Curious about this. We know newspapers aren’t always accurate. Can just a "middle wire" be torn out? Can these two statements jibe?

THE PRESS ENTERPRISE, OCT. 31, 1966 – AFTERNOON EDITION

via zk.com http://www.zodiackiller.com/BatesHeadline1.html

The article Tahoe posted along with the one below. shows that the Riverside PD was simply wrong and did not do a good job. The report mentions that NONE OF THE DETAIL ABOUT THE MIDDLE WIRE WERE MDE PUBLIC, SO THEREFORE, THE CONFESSION LETTER MUST HAVE BEEN THE KILLER SINCE HE KNEW ABOUT THE MIDDLE WIRE BEING PULLLED IN HER CAR.

Well look at this article from 11/1/66, only 2 days after her murder:

I think a person wanting to take credit for the murder certainly could have read this, and other articles, and had enough details to make the confession letter, especially as it pertains to which wires were pulled. Very sloppy for the police to say that the info was NOT RELEASED, yet here it is in black and white. Riverside PD leaves alot to be desired in the Bates investigation, but I think we already knew that

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:22 pm

I was thinking the same thing Morf. The portion of the paper I posted was printed the day she was found!

But neither say "middle wire". Doesn’t the middle wire lead to the distributor coil? it wouldn’t be the same thing right?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:36 pm

Good points but confession writer also said kicked in the head and other details which were not released. Overall I think evidence shows confession writer was the killer.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:51 pm

Ok…my husband just laughed at me.

He says the distributor coil was not "torn out" of her car–only the middle wire.

I guess "technically" the RPD was correct, but it would seem a given. I guess one can assume anyone with any knowledge about such things would know it was just the wire.

Still, I too believe the Confession Letter to be written by her killer.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 am

Ok…my husband just laughed at me.

He says the distributor coil was not "torn out" of her car–only the middle wire.

I guess "technically" the RPD was correct, but it would seem a given. I guess one can assume anyone with any knowledge about such things would know it was just the wire.

Still, I too believe the Confession Letter to be written by her killer.

I am leaning more and more in that direction too, and also am leaning towards ALL of the Bates letters being written by her killer, which is causing me to rethink alot of things, and reconsider various suspects & POI’s. If all of the Bates letters were from Zodiac, as well as the desktop poem, then any serious Zodiac suspect would have had to have been in Riverside between October 1966 (the Bates murder) and April, 1967(Bates letters). And the letters didnt just come aprox one month after the murder, and six months after, they were essentially on the one & six month anniversaries of the murder. That indicates a person that was living in that area, and not just passing thru.

Also, in regards to the confession letter, the author mentions ‘all of the brushoffs in the past years’. Some people think that may be misdirection on the author’s part, but I don’t. If a stranger killed Bates, there would be no need to make a fake letter, they could just stay silent and out of sight. When a murder happens, those closest to the victim are checked out first, friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc…..strangers are usually last on the list. So a stranger wouldnt need to make a false confession letter. Also, this may very well indicate a person that is about Cheri’s age. I think for years, people have been hung up on the fact that the sketch puts Z at 25-45. Well that sketch has not solved anything, and we have mentions of Zodiac sounding ‘young’ in his 20’s perhaps, this was stated by Hartnell & Officer Slaight.

To me, this just causes me to shine an even bigger light on a suspect I have been looking at recently who graduated HS with Cheri and wound up in Vallejo area around the time of the Z murders. This guy was 21 at the time of the Z murders, but looked older. Throw in the fact he lived less than a mile from Bates, his Father was in the Air Force(he possibly was in the service too),and some other clues that fit, and he makes for a very interesting suspect. I have been trying unsuccessfull to contact friends of Bates to see if they could supply any info on this guy.

My personal opinion, is that if anybody believes that Z wrote the confession and/or desktop poem, and/or killed Bates, they NEED TO consider suspects that possibly knew Bates and were about her age. This would mean not ruling out people that were under 25 at the time of teh Z murders.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:47 am

I think for years, people have been hung up on the fact that the sketch puts Z at 25-45. Well that sketch has not solved anything, and we have mentions of Zodiac sounding ‘young’ in his 20’s perhaps, this was stated by Hartnell & Officer Slaight.

+1. The Presidio Heights age estimate is an outlier; everyone else says he was about thirty at the most.

Keep working on the guy from Riverside, morf – he’s a great lead to follow.

, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:15 am

Ok…my husband just laughed at me.

He says the distributor coil was not "torn out" of her car–only the middle wire.

I guess "technically" the RPD was correct, but it would seem a given. I guess one can assume anyone with any knowledge about such things would know it was just the wire.

Still, I too believe the Confession Letter to be written by her killer.

That article mentioned the condensor being "torn out"… the condensor is located inside the distributor. The distributor cap must be removed to access the condensor (which CAN then easily be ripped out). More effort than it’s worth though, as you could simply disconnect the middle coil wire to achieve the same result. Do we know how accurate the article is?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:03 pm

The article I posted states "the distributor coil and condensor to her car’s engine had been torn out".

I guess I am just saying that the newspapers never stated "middle wire"

Newpaper articles always accurate….. :no:

StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:40 pm

I think for years, people have been hung up on the fact that the sketch puts Z at 25-45. Well that sketch has not solved anything, and we have mentions of Zodiac sounding ‘young’ in his 20’s perhaps, this was stated by Hartnell & Officer Slaight.

+1. The Presidio Heights age estimate is an outlier; everyone else says he was about thirty at the most.

Keep working on the guy from Riverside, morf – he’s a great lead to follow.

I agree.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:29 am

I requested,and received from the FBI, any documents related to the case of Cheri Jo Bates. Today, they mailed me the requested documents. These documents(a handful of pages)pretty much detail the evidence found at the scene,specifically the physical evidence, also,mention a cigarette butt,etc. Clearly states that the skin& hair found under Cheri’s nails,belonged to somebody with BROWN hair. Most of all,and clearly, they EXCLUDE Riverside’s suspect as being her killer based on a NON-DNA match ,something that has already been known for a long time. Good to see some of this stuff in black & white. I will post them on here later tonight for anybody that is interested.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:20 pm

Would love to see it. Thanks morf!

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:46 pm

Totally interested, Morf! Yay & Yes….Do share!
I always like to read all the documents.

Much Thanks, Zam*

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:41 pm

I third that and thanks for getting those Morf.

Stratcat, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:25 pm

Please hurry Morf it’s getting close to bed time.
Love to see these. You always seem to come up with something!!

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:52 pm

I requested,and received from the FBI, any documents related to the case of Cheri Jo Bates. Today, they mailed me the requested documents. These documents(a handful of pages)pretty much detail the evidence found at the scene,specifically the physical evidence, also,mention a cigarette butt,etc. Clearly states that the skin& hair found under Cheri’s nails,belonged to somebody with BROWN hair. Most of all,and clearly, they EXCLUDE Riverside’s suspect as being her killer based on a NON-DNA match ,something that has already been known for a long time. Good to see some of this stuff in black & white. I will post them on here later tonight for anybody that is interested.

Sorry for the delay…as promised here they are. I am not sure what order they are supposed to be in,but the last page says it all, which is Riverside’s suspect, does NOT match the DNA found uner Cheri’s nails. PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THIS POST AS IT WILL TAKE UP ALOT OF SPACE

ONCE AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THIS POST SO THAT WE CAN SAVE SPACE

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:15 am

Wow good job Morf!

Can I pass these along to other Zodiac and true crime sites?

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:22 am

Wow good job Morf!

Can I pass these along to other Zodiac and true crime sites?

Be my Guest

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:23 am

Wow good job Morf!

Can I pass these along to other Zodiac and true crime sites?

Be my Guest

Done.

Not blaming this site at all, because I am sure they were relying on information from the Riverside PD, which we now know was FALSE.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/BatesDNA.html

But apparently Riverside PD passed along info that the hair found in Cheri’s hand was "sandy BLONDE", which was the hair color of the "local suspect" RPD favored. Thanks to Morf we now know the hairs were described by the FBI as "BROWN."

Riverside PD = EPIC FAIL

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:10 pm

I have heard some argue this, and it must also be the position of Riverside PD, that the hairs may not be from the killer. Perhaps they came from a police officer or evidence tech, or perhaps were already on the ground. But this FBI report states that the hairs were on a blood clot in her hand. That IMO makes it more likely they were indeed from the killer and came off in the struggle.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:11 pm

A girl is murdered savagely, and puts up a great struggle. She is found clenching hair/skin, yet they have the nerve to say its not from her killer?

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:12 pm

I would trust the FBI, who is stating the handwriting samples are not a match to Zodiac,
and they have the DNA from Cheri Jo Bates Killer. He is a white male with brown hair,
correct? And we can conclude that this person is not the EAR/ONS or they would have had a hit.
So, the Zodiac Killer could be Cheri Jo Bates, murderer or the EAR/ONS, but not both. Or probably
neither.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:32 pm

No any given mtDNA will match 1 to 5% of the population so it cannot be entered into codis. So the Bates killer could be ear/ons and now that I have case and lab numbers I will try to get investigators to do a one on one comparison. Riverside PD says possible forged Z letter both fBI and Cal DOJ experts say Zodiac did write Riverside materials.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:40 pm

Thanks for clarifying on the DNA, great idea to try for a comparison, obviously I need to
learn more about DNA. Regarding the handwriting I am reading the reports here that Morf has posted
the writing is blurry, but clearly says "It has not been determinded that submitted samples match the
handwriting of the writer of the Zodia materials" something like that. Sorry, keep up the good work AK.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:36 pm

What about the cigarette butt DNA. Did it in anyway match the hair DNA? Obviously there would be no way to even prove the cigarette butt belonged to her killer, unless it matched a DNA test in some way.

I wonder if they knew the brand of cigarette. Some unique brand alone could flag someone.

Edit: Oh, and thank you so much morf!!! SUPER!!

Stratcat, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:55 pm

Thanks Morf13, I believe you mentioned that the riverside PD suspect has been known to not match the dna.
But you don’t know till you really know. Thanks to you!!!

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:58 pm

Watch with latex house paint splatter…. Weren’t there some construction workers nearby?

And the local boy had some evidence on him, couple friends dropped a dime and he left the country. I wonder if he might have had some ‘help’.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:40 pm

Watch with latex house paint splatter…. Weren’t there some construction workers nearby?

And the local boy had some evidence on him, couple friends dropped a dime and he left the country. I wonder if he might have had some ‘help’.

Somebody reported not one, but two people with flashlights poking around later that night,and I think one of his friends, took, and passed a lie detector test. But still, all in all, you have to assume that Cheri’s killer left DNA under her nails….for her to have skin & blood/DNA under her nails that was not from her killer does not make sense.

So, next question, is the DNA in her case in the NATL database? Has it been compared to any suspected Zodiac DNA evidence?

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:56 am

It hasn’t been compared with the Zodiac DNA, no.

Barnett’s friend did not pass the lie detector test. Quoting Tom’s site…

"To police, Barnett’s friend would not admit that he had any knowledge that a crime had occurred. He eventually took a polygraph test, which indicated he was truthful except regarding questions that might implicate HIMSELF in Cheri’s murder."

I can totally see Cheri’s murder being a two-man job, with Barnett’s friend restraining her and getting scratched while Barnett himself stabs her. That would explain the DNA non-match with Barnett, plus the witnesses seeing two men hunting for (presumably) the watch.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:29 am

It hasn’t been compared with the Zodiac DNA, no.

Barnett’s friend did not pass the lie detector test. Quoting Tom’s site…

"To police, Barnett’s friend would not admit that he had any knowledge that a crime had occurred. He eventually took a polygraph test, which indicated he was truthful except regarding questions that might implicate HIMSELF in Cheri’s murder."

I can totally see Cheri’s murder being a two-man job, with Barnett’s friend restraining her and getting scratched while Barnett himself stabs her. That would explain the DNA non-match with Barnett, plus the witnesses seeing two men hunting for (presumably) the watch.

You are correct, I have never thought about it being a 2 man job, but tha tcould explain things. Personally, I dont think it was a 2 man job,but there have been instances when 2 men have tried to kidnap a woman, etc. But I think for it to be a two man job,they would have been 2 strangers, and I cant see Cheri going off and hanging out in the dark with two strangers. What would be more likely in my mind, is Barnett being there with a buddy, and the Buddy just there as Barnett argues with Cheri, and then Barnett just losing it and going off and the Buddy jumping in to stop it, and things getting out of control. But personally, I dont see that either. I tend to think it was a one man job, but that would not explain the 2 flashlights. Maybe a second person is guilty after the fact,but cant see a 2nd person actually participating in the murder. But the DNA not matching Barnett just throws eevrything else off.

Here’s a thought, Barnett was supposed to have said to his friends, "THAT BITCH IS GOING OFF TO THE LIBRARY", then he storms off. How do we know one of his Friends didnt then leave and go over there to the library himself? I would like to know the names of the guys he was with when he stated she was going to the library.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:05 am

Hi-

Good work getting your hands on this stuff. Unless it is a matter of semantics and color perception with respect to the hair found in his hand, it once again proves that RPD is apparently willing to say anything to make it sound like their "Barnett" did it. And BTW, RPD was the source of the "42" stab wounds in 2000 and also the alleged statements by "Barnett" about "the "bitch" being at the library.

They’re worse than amateurs in their defense of their suspect because they are supposed to be more objective and follow leads wherever they go, not entrench themselves.

I also agree that it is highly unlikely under any imaginable *normal* circumstances that the hair found clutched in the hand of a deceased victim would belong to anyone other than her killer. It is difficult to imagine the circumstances under which the hair could belong to someone from the police. Sounds again like RPD spinning the evidence in their own favor.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:36 am

Hi-

Good work getting your hands on this stuff. Unless it is a matter of semantics and color perception with respect to the hair found in his hand, it once again proves that RPD is apparently willing to say anything to make it sound like their "Barnett" did it. And BTW, RPD was the source of the "42" stab wounds in 2000 and also the alleged statements by "Barnett" about "the "bitch" being at the library.

They’re worse than amateurs in their defense of their suspect because they are supposed to be more objective and follow leads wherever they go, not entrench themselves.

I also agree that it is highly unlikely under any imaginable *normal* circumstances that the hair found clutched in the hand of a deceased victim would belong to anyone other than her killer. It is difficult to imagine the circumstances under which the hair could belong to someone from the police. Sounds again like RPD spinning the evidence in their own favor.

Mike

These are great points and proof that RPD got tunnel vision with their suspect.

One thing that I always have been curious about….If RPD doesnt know the ID of Bates’ killer, how can they say that the Zodiac was not responsible? Also, why do they think that the confession letter could be from the killer, but the Bates handwritten letters are from somebody else?

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:22 pm

I can totally see Cheri’s murder being a two-man job, with Barnett’s friend restraining her and getting scratched while Barnett himself stabs her. That would explain the DNA non-match with Barnett, plus the witnesses seeing two men hunting for (presumably) the watch.

Agreed. Maybe one hiding in the alley beforehand and Barnett getting her there.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:53 pm

One thing that I always have been curious about….If RPD doesnt know the ID of Bates’ killer, how can they say that the Zodiac was not responsible? Also, why do they think that the confession letter could be from the killer, but the Bates handwritten letters are from somebody else?

In their defence, Cheri’s murder doesn’t immediately scream ‘Zodiac crime’ – the first impression one gets is that it was an attempted rape that turned ugly when the victim fought back. And as for the letters… the confession offers details that only the killer could have known, while the handwritten notes are just cruel taunts that don’t include any such minutiae.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:42 pm

My problem with people’s problem with the RPD is that it has been over 40 years since Cheri was murdered. Surely there have been new, more open minded detectives involved with this case.

I’m actually quite suprised when you hear of folks talking to people in LE and them giving them ANY information.

Maybe there is a reason they don’t say much or don’t offer more detailed info.

NOT that they weren’t incompetant in the past or now, there was OBVIOUS errors (as Mike R points out) but I don’t think we know everything.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:08 pm

My problem with people’s problem with the RPD is that it has been over 40 years since Cheri was murdered. Surely there have been new, more open minded detectives involved with this case.

I’m actually quite suprised when you hear of folks talking to people in LE and them giving them ANY information.

Maybe there is a reason they don’t say much or don’t offer more detailed info.

NOT that they weren’t incompetant in the past or now, there was OBVIOUS errors (as Mike R points out) but I don’t think we know everything.

Well, I know that the Detective that handled Cheri’s case for years just retired,and the guy that took over is ‘looking into other angles’.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:16 pm

^^And maybe they should look at Bud Kelly. Wouldn’t hurt. Although Cheri probably wasn’t young enough for him. –Ouch.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:19 pm

One thing that I always have been curious about….If RPD doesnt know the ID of Bates’ killer, how can they say that the Zodiac was not responsible? Also, why do they think that the confession letter could be from the killer, but the Bates handwritten letters are from somebody else?

In their defence, Cheri’s murder doesn’t immediately scream ‘Zodiac crime’ – the first impression one gets is that it was an attempted rape that turned ugly when the victim fought back. And as for the letters… the confession offers details that only the killer could have known, while the handwritten notes are just cruel taunts that don’t include any such minutiae.

Good explanation,and could very well be. But the Bates crime not screaming zodiac isnt entirely true. Everybody associates the Zodiac with shootings. But at Berryessa, he didnt hesitate to use a knife. And if he killed D&E in Santa Barbara, there is evidence he used a knife there too.

As far as one letter being typed & the otehrs being written, perhaps if they are from the same person, he was nervous at first thathis writing would be recognized, but then got brave and figured he would disguise his writing and send a hand written note.

Also, regarding the Confession letter vs the Bates had to die letters….The BATES HAD TO DIE letters were confirmed to be from Z (right or wrong)…the confession letter mentioend it being a GAME, misspelledthe word TWITCH, the same as Z did. To me, there is little doubt, Z wrote both the confession & Bates had to die letters.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:14 pm

In 2010 the RPD detective was not interested in any info on Zodiac at all.

bentley, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:30 pm

misspelledthe word TWITCH, the same as Z did. To me, there is little doubt, Z wrote both the confession & Bates had to die letters.

That is a very important clue imo, however I have to admit I wasn’t sure myself how many ts were in twitch, I’ll bet it’s a fairly common misspelling. Ask someone ticklich. I’m going out for a sandwitch.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 pm

My problem with people’s problem with the RPD is that it has been over 40 years since Cheri was murdered. Surely there have been new, more open minded detectives involved with this case.

I’m actually quite suprised when you hear of folks talking to people in LE and them giving them ANY information.

Maybe there is a reason they don’t say much or don’t offer more detailed info.

NOT that they weren’t incompetant in the past or now, there was OBVIOUS errors (as Mike R points out) but I don’t think we know everything.

Well I was not trying to GET information from the Riverside PD. I was trying to GIVE them information. And it was Detective Steve Shumway who told me he was not interested in any information on Zodiac. Period.

Morf if you are saying Shumway retired and a new detective is more open and not fixated on the local guy who did not match the mtDNA in Cheri’s hand, let me know.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Yes AK. They should take ANY info and look at it. Zodiac or not. It’s just a few minutes of their time.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Hi-

I think that when looking at the Bates case vs. Z, you have to always keep in mind chickens and eggs (sort of an appropriate analogy for this time of year!). Z seems to have written the "Bates had to die" letters." That tells us he was intrigued by the Bates murder for some reason. The rest of the letter writing could have been inspired by such things as "the Confession," even if Z didn’t write that letter. The question is this: When was the text of "the Confession" first made public? I probably used to know all of this but can’t recall right now. Considering that If it was made public before Z misspelled "twitch," he could have pulled that word out of "the Confession" as an homage to that killer.

I went through a CD of the Bates articles but could not find an article from 1966 that had the text of "the Confession" letter.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:32 pm

Hi-

I think that when looking at the Bates case vs. Z, you have to always keep in mind chickens and eggs (sort of an appropriate analogy for this time of year!). Z seems to have written the "Bates had to die" letters." That tells us he was intrigued by the Bates murder for some reason. The rest of the letter writing could have been inspired by such things as "the Confession," even if Z didn’t write that letter. The question is this: When was the text of "the Confession" first made public? I probably used to know all of this but can’t recall right now. Considering that If it was made public before Z misspelled "twitch," he could have pulled that word out of "the Confession" as an homage to that killer.

I went through a CD of the Bates articles but could not find an article from 1966 that had the text of "the Confession" letter.

Mike

MIKER, I am in process of sorting thru alot of stuff, if I come across the articles (I have alot of them too), I will post them here

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:33 pm

My problem with people’s problem with the RPD is that it has been over 40 years since Cheri was murdered. Surely there have been new, more open minded detectives involved with this case.

I’m actually quite suprised when you hear of folks talking to people in LE and them giving them ANY information.

Maybe there is a reason they don’t say much or don’t offer more detailed info.

NOT that they weren’t incompetant in the past or now, there was OBVIOUS errors (as Mike R points out) but I don’t think we know everything.

Well I was not trying to GET information from the Riverside PD. I was trying to GIVE them information. And it was Detective Steve Shumway who told me he was not interested in any information on Zodiac. Period.

Morf if you are saying Shumway retired and a new detective is more open and not fixated on the local guy who did not match the mtDNA in Cheri’s hand, let me know.

I will just say that Steve Shumway retired, and the other guy seems open to other possibilities. That doesnt mean you would be met with open arms if you mention Zodiac.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:42 pm

OK. I am not going to contact RPD at this time. I will try to get other Zodiac and EAR/ONS investigators to access the actual mtDNA results for comparison purposes. Now that I have a case# and lab# that will be a little easier.

Also the report indicates FOUR hairs found on the blod clot in Cheri’s hand. IMO it could be possible ONE hair came from a police officer or lab tech. But not FOUR hairs on a BLOOD CLOT. IMO these hairs are from the killer, and the killer was almost certainly Zodiac. I want to get this mtDNA compared to my POI’s mtDNA, that from other good suspects and to any mtDNA from other possibly related unsolved crimes like EAR/ONS and Percy. Thanks Morf you gave me more work to do! But it just may lead to a breakthrough, I am going to try anyway.

NOTE: The email that I have used in the past to communicate with Michael Butterfield does not seem to work anymore. Any member at zodiackillerfacts who wishes to may post these reports. I think many of the members there would find them interesting. Same applies to members at zodiackiller, please feel free to post the reports there for discussion. Please give credit to MORF for obtaining them. I did send the reports to mk-zodiac, zodiologists, zodiackillertruth, unazod and Howard Davis Zodiac-Manson site.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:59 pm

I see that a person claiming the whole Zodiac case is a hoax says the mtDNA used to compare to local suspect ‘Barnett’ was aged and faulty. These reports show that is false as they show a good sample was obtained and Barnett was conclusively cleared as a nonmatch. Also for those who say the hair in Chei’s hand could have come from a cop that seems highly unlikely as these reports show it was actually FOUR hairs in a blood clot.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:31 pm

They should drag Barnett’s friend back to the station and DNA test him.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:19 pm

They should drag Barnett’s friend back to the station and DNA test him.

I agree. That friend may be guilty, even ‘if’ Barnett wasnt at the crime scene….maybe this friend went there by himself, and is the killer

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:34 pm

They should drag Barnett’s friend back to the station and DNA test him.

I agree. That friend may be guilty, even ‘if’ Barnett wasnt at the crime scene….maybe this friend went there by himself, and is the killer

I just watched a "movie" about the I-5 killer and he tried to implicate his friend. Although I have no idea if that’s true.

It wouldn’t surprise me for someone to do that. Who would be a better scapegoat than someone you were friends with–just in case you are caught in the mix of it all. Maybe make up a little story, say something to LE to sway them away from you. You sure would like to think LE thought of that.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:41 pm

There was never a good motive for Barnett to kill Cheri and no motive at all for his friend to so. The police had plenty of contact with the friend so they could have snagged a hair to compare. IMO the evidence points to Zodiac killing Cheri and Barnett was not Z and did not kill Cheri. Those four hairs in a blood clot in her hand came from her killer who was almost certainly Zodiac.

morf13, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:46 pm

There was never a good motive for Barnett to kill Cheri and no motive at all for his friend to so. The police had plenty of contact with the friend so they could have snagged a hair to compare. IMO the evidence points to Zodiac killing Cheri and Barnett was not Z and did not kill Cheri. Those four hairs in a blood clot in her hand came from her killer who was almost certainly Zodiac.

You may be correct,I certainly think its a possibility

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Bates FBI Reports Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:27 pm

There was never a good motive for Barnett to kill Cheri and no motive at all for his friend to so.

We don’t know any of that.

The police had plenty of contact with the friend so they could have snagged a hair to compare.

Fact remains that they didn’t. I’m shocked at how easily they appeared to have let the friend go. Witness sees two guys in the alley? Friend’s polygraph test results come back suspicious? I’d have sweated the guy.

In the long post above the 8th FBI document down indicates that the RPD told the FBI that the Riverside writer was correct about the middle wire distributor, the injuries and most importantly the phone call to the RPD.

I’m at work now. Maybe somebody can save that document and post it separately, or I’ll do it when I get home.

Thanks again for locating that, AK.

I agree that this seems to all but confirm it: I can think of several reasons why an imposter might want to include the phone detail, but it seems a stretch and a half to speculate that an imposter lucked out by referencing a phone call which actually was placed.

Now, I know that RPD have been less than forthcoming in the past – but here’s a question:

Would there be any point to communicating with them regarding the document below (which clearly shows that an RPD detective at the time informed the FBI that a phone call was received, and that this was taken as indicating that the Confession author was the killer) and ask them to clarify – to the extent that this is possible – what the exact nature of that phone call was?

EDIT

Will post the document separately shortly.

Confirmation of phone call.

Somebody called police the night of the murder ‘anonymously’ to report a horrible scream. The letter writer may have been stating that they were the caller,even if they really weren’t

Somebody called police the night of the murder ‘anonymously’ to report a horrible scream. The letter writer may have been stating that they were the caller,even if they really weren’t

First of all thanks to Norse for posting that document. And thanks to Morf and his tenacity in getting that important document and so many others from the FBI.

Well I think you have to look at the totality of the circumstances and known facts. The RPD told the FBI the writer was correct about a phone call made to RPD, and it appears the circumstances around that call made RPD certain the writer was the caller, and the caller was the killer. Was a hoax writer just a damn good guesser? That seems hard to believe IMO.

Also RPD says the writer was correct about the "details of the manner of death", which would seem to mean he was correct about his statements about the knife breaking, kicking her in the head, etc.

So even setting aside the distributor issue, IMO the writer being correct about the phone call and manner of death details means it is somewhere on the scale of very likely to almost certain that the Riverside writer was the Bates killer. Of course others might disagree or think it is less certain, and people are free to believe what they want.

I know Norse agrees with that, and I suspect many or most researchers who look at this would come to a similar conclusion. But I’m open to hear any other evidence, information, theories and ideas, as long as they are rooted in something more substantial than just the writer making multiple correct lucky guesses. I suppose anything is possible but that just doesn’t seem very realistic IMO.

Somebody called police the night of the murder ‘anonymously’ to report a horrible scream. The letter writer may have been stating that they were the caller,even if they really weren’t

First of all thanks to Norse for posting that document. And thanks to Morf and his tenacity in getting that important document and so many others from the FBI.

Well I think you have to look at the totality of the circumstances and known facts. The RPD told the FBI the writer was correct about a phone call made to RPD, and it appears the circumstances around that call made RPD certain the writer was the caller, and the caller was the killer. Was a hoax writer just a damn good guesser? That seems hard to believe IMO.

Also RPD says the writer was correct about the "details of the manner of death", which would seem to mean he was correct about his statements about the knife breaking, kicking her in the head, etc.

So even setting aside the distributor issue, IMO the writer being correct about the phone call and manner of death details means it is somewhere on the scale of very likely to almost certain that the Riverside writer was the Bates killer. Of course others might disagree or think it is less certain, and people are free to believe what they want.

I know Norse agrees with that, and I suspect many or most researchers who look at this would come to a similar conclusion. But I’m open to hear any other evidence, information, theories and ideas, as long as they are rooted in something more substantial than just the writer making multiple correct lucky guesses. I suppose anything is possible but that just doesn’t seem very realistic IMO.

2 points, first, it’s clear in these articles about how Cheri’s car was disabled, and that there was an anonymous call made to police to report a scream. Is that the call the FBI memo mentions?

Second, if we assume for a second that Z killed Cheri, then we have to question just how & why RPD is positive her killer wasn’t Z, which is likely because the prints on her car did not match the prints from the Z case, that or DNA(we have never got a straight answer from Anybody if prints & DNA from the Bates case were compared to Z,I personally think they were)and that’s the rub.

Butterfield claims prints were compaired.
http://zodiackillerfacts.com/main/river … mysteries/

Fingerprints related to the Bates case were compared to the fingerprints related to the Zodiac investigation but no match was found. However, the prints in both cases did not represent every part of every finger on both hands so the possibility existed that the prints could not be matched at all.

RPD claiming Zodiac was not the Bates killer, simply means they are sure Barnett has no connection to the Zodiac crimes.

1. I thought a woman reported a scream. I doubt that is the call RPD is talking about. Based on the letter writer saying he made a call to RPD and the writer knowing the "details" of the manner of death and the writer being correct on both counts, RPD tells the FBI they are confident the letter writer is the Bates killer.

2. As to why RPD has been so confident that Z was not the Bates killer who knows for sure. I think they are just wrong, and stubborn in their refusal to even consider evidence to the contrary.

Paul Holes told me that the Bates prints, which were IMO likely but not definitely from the killer, were compared to the prints from the Stine cab. But CCCSD Crime Lab Chief Paul Holes told me its unlikely any of those prints are from Zodiac. And mtDNA cannot be directly compared to nuclear DNA, though that may be on the verge of changing thanks to tech improvements. But there is no confirmed Zodiac DNA to compare it to.

IMO RPD wanted to avoid the circus of the Zodiac case, so they doubled down on their local suspect and insisted Zodiac was not involved. And even when prints, mtDNA and hair color cleared him, they stuck to saying he was the killer and in any event the killer was not Zodiac. And in 2010-2011, RPD Detective Steve Shumway refused to even look at my evidence regarding Zodiac being the Bates killer.

The only thing i can say is we are still against a brick wall…some of this info i had forgotten so thanks for the refresh

I still vasilate on wether cjb was in fact at the hands of z…cjb to me was either a jealous or anger driven homicide and that puts the perp in my mind late teens to early 20’s…at times i wonder if ross had so much guilt over commiting the cjb homicide it drove him into the insane asylum..fingerprint evidence and alibi seem to have cleared ross though

How certain are we the hand writing of the riverside writer is comparable to the known z letters??

How certain are we the hand writing of the riverside writer is comparable to the known z letters??

Sherwood Morrill, the State’s writing expert who handled the Z letters, stated that the Bates writing was ‘Unquestionably’ the work of Zodiac, and the FBI analysis seems to agree with him. There are a few threads on here comparing and debating the writing content,style,words,etc. Traveller1st did a really good graphic comparison too,so you can find it on here.

I have to point out, in the Bates had to die letters, the writer signed off with something that looks quite like a stylized Z, which makes it obvious to me Zodiac wrote those letters when you combine it with all of the other links