BUMP!

I found a section of the FBI files that mentions the Bates letters compared to Zodiac’s. A state writing expert had disagreed with Sherwood Morrill’s assesment that the Riverside letters and desk poem were authored by Zodiac. They essentially asked the FBI to be the tie breaker,and settle the argument. The result-

"For the above reasons,the hand printing examination of these letters was inconclusive. "HOWEVER, CONSISTENT HAND PRINTING CHARACTERISTICS WERE NOTED IN THE Q85 THROUGH QC100 LETTERS WHICH INDICATE THAT ONE PERSON MAY HAVE PREPARED ALL OF THE LETTERS INCLUDING THE RIVERSIDE LETTERS AND THE MESSAGE FOUND ON THE DESKTOP IN THE RIVERSIDE CASE"

Morph i’m so glad you posted this. I’ve always thought when looking at the "BATES MUST DIE" writing that it looks absolutely nothing like Zodiac’s at all. I was only thinking that this morning funny enough but stopped short of stating I don’t think it was written by Zodiac because I thought i’d look like an ego driven idiot over-ruling a respected expert on his professional opinion lol.

Yes morf, true. You pays your money and then you picks your expert opinion.
I thought the description "a mass murderer to whom we have attributed SIX known victims since 1966" was interesting. Coming from the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation…….

Yes morf, true. You pays your money and then you picks your expert opinion.
I thought the description "a mass murderer to whom we have attributed SIX known victims since 1966" was interesting. Coming from the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation…….

FBI wording: "HOWEVER, CONSISTENT HAND PRINTING CHARACTERISTICS WERE NOTED IN THE Q85 THROUGH QC100 LETTERS WHICH INDICATE THAT ONE PERSON MAY HAVE PREPARED ALL OF THE LETTERS INCLUDING THE RIVERSIDE LETTERS AND THE MESSAGE FOUND ON THE DESKTOP IN THE RIVERSIDE CASE"

They were just probably reluctant to come rite out against another ‘criminal expert’ and say ‘In relation to the Riverside letters and S. Morill’s conclusion, The FBI’s own expert sates that in his professional opinion…… BullShit!

Lol.

Na serious though I can see no similarities in the letters i’ve seen. In the confession letter, apart from it being typed unlike Z’s, the author states "I lay awake nights thinking about my next victim". Zodiac never once spelled victim correctly, always ‘Victom’. I think this was deliberate but if he decided to mask his spelling ability in the Z letters, why not in the Bates letter?

Hi-

It is interesting to note that all the 1974 letters were deemed authentic by handwriting. However, in speaking to Alan Keel, who worked in SFPD’s lab and did the early (pre-2002) DNA testing of the evidence, he said that DNA had determined that one of the 1974 letters was a forgery that was linked to the April 1978 forgery via the same DNA being present on both. Which 1974 letter it was is still a huge question.

I think the reason these are not both simply authentic Z letters that actually have his DNA on them is that all of the other "true" Zodiac letters were proven not to have been licked by the sender. Therefore, handwriting first called the 1978 letter into question, and DNA later linked it to the 1974 letter. Both were thus deemed forgeries…and DNA MAY have linked them to their author, but that is another story. That would have proved they were forgeries that did not authored by Z (as long as the person whose DNA was on them had been ruled out as Z to begin with)!

Mike

Mike are you sure there was no DNA (partial profile) found and lifted from one of Zodiac’s letters, specifically the Stine letter? I’ve heard several people claim similar.

In 2003 on an episode of ‘Cold Case Files – Zodiac Killer’, San Francisco Police Dpt. Forensic Examiner Susan Morton claimed that a partial DNA profile was obtained from on of the letters. It’s suggested in this episode that they got the partial profile from the Stine letter because it could obviously be shown as an authentic Zodiac communication due to the piece of bloody shirt sent with it.

Also, in the Documentary ‘Hunting the Zodiac’, SFPD Inspector Kelly Carroll said "The DNA was compared, with a negative result, to Arthur Leigh Allen." The he said, and i’m paraphrasing this next bit because I cannot remember what he said exactly but it was along the lines of "He (Allen) could not have contributed the DNA found on the stamp/envelope seal".

Here’s a link to Cold Case Files clip showing SFPD forensic examiner stating a Partial DNA profile was obtained. This clip also features current SFPD inspector Kelly Carroll (who also features in ‘Hunting the Zodiac’ to state ALA’s DNA didn’t match the partial profile. Scroll/Fast Foreward the clip to 6:15 for the DNA claim.

http://youtu.be/CYjb5vXaW5k

Here it is. The FBI found "consistent hand printing characteristics" between Zodiac and the Riverside Bates writings AND the Riverside desktop.

Here it is. The FBI found "consistent hand printing characteristics" between Zodiac and the Riverside Bates writings AND the Riverside desktop.

Yes but, just before that:

"For the above reasons, the hand printing of these examinations was inconclusive" (see above reasons)

Consistencies were noted and the writer may have been the same person. It was noted, but not determined.

As with Morrill, Shimoda, and the FBI…we’ll all just agree to disagree.

Here it is. The FBI found "consistent hand printing characteristics" between Zodiac and the Riverside Bates writings AND the Riverside desktop.

Yes but, just before that:

"For the above reasons, the hand printing of these examinations was inconclusive" (see above reasons)

Consistencies were noted and the writer may have been the same person. It was noted, but not determined.

As with Morrill, Shimoda, and the FBI…we’ll all just agree to disagree.

Yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but…..

Sometimes you just have to play the odds. No evidence can be proven 100% Zodiac, but in this situation you have to see enough similarities to say it’s better than a 50% chance it could be Z.

You have to take the Riverside evidence as a whole. Sure if they found one single letter written on a wall that looked like Z’s it wouldn’t carry much weight. Since we have multiple similarities, we need to play the odds and lean towards the possibility Z could have been in Riverside.

If we don’t believe in any evidence, we have no way to eliminate suspects, much less shrink a suspect pool. This has lead to all the bad suspects. Have a weak suspect you like? Just link him to the continent evidence and ignore entire aspects of the case.

The SFPD also says "we have attributed SIX victims to Zodiac since 1966". Which includes Bates as a Zodiac victim. And as someome who has looked at a lot of FBI documents their language is always cautious. To me this is a pretty strong endorsement of the Riverside letters and desk match Z, which matches what I see with my own unexpert eyes.

I found a section of the FBI files that mentions the Bates letters compared to Zodiac’s. A state writing expert had disagreed with Sherwood Morrill’s assesment that the Riverside letters and desk poem were authored by Zodiac. They essentially asked the FBI to be the tie breaker,and settle the argument. The result-

"For the above reasons,the hand printing examination of these letters was inconclusive. "HOWEVER, CONSISTENT HAND PRINTING CHARACTERISTICS WERE NOTED IN THE Q85 THROUGH QC100 LETTERS WHICH INDICATE THAT ONE PERSON MAY HAVE PREPARED ALL OF THE LETTERS INCLUDING THE RIVERSIDE LETTERS AND THE MESSAGE FOUND ON THE DESKTOP IN THE RIVERSIDE CASE"

"HOWEVER, CONSISTENT HAND PRINTING CHARACTERISTICS WERE NOTED IN THE Q85 THROUGH QC100 LETTERS WHICH INDICATE THAT ONE PERSON MAY HAVE PREPARED ALL OF THE LETTERS INCLUDING THE RIVERSIDE LETTERS AND THE MESSAGE FOUND ON THE DESKTOP IN THE RIVERSIDE CASE"

Just wanted to quote myself here from the first post, and show again, just what the FBI had to say about the Bates writing. It clearly mentions that while inconclusive, there are enough consistent clues that indicate one person may have prepared the Riverside stuff. In the past, we have seen that the FBI is NOT shy to cast doubt on Z letters they don’t think are legitimate, that’s not the case here. Of course, Sherwood & the FBI might both be wrong

The FBI also says "we have attributed SIX murders to Zodiac since 1966". Which includes Bates as a Zodiac victim. And as someome who has looked at a lot of FBI documents their language is always cautious. To me this is a pretty strong endorsement of the Riverside letters and desk match Z, which matches what I see with my own unexpert eyes.

Fully agree AK

All of the documents are above but these two are key. The SFPD notes the dispute between Cal DOJ Morrill who found the Riverside materials a match to Zodiac and Postal Service Shimoda who said no match. The SFPD notes the "seriousness" of the case and says the FBI opinion is needed to "settle" the issue. In that context I interpret the FBI finding "consistent hand printing characteristics" between the Riverside writings and "desk top" and Zodiac to be a probable match that "one person" may have done, knowing the FBI always uses cautious language in regards to potential matches (though as Morf notes they state very clearly when they think it is a fake). Here they were specifically asked to " settle" the dispute, and in that context hey clearly come down as backing Cal DOJ on the authentication of Riverside.

I also find it interesting that apparently considering ALL the evidence, not just handwriting, which might include MO, psych, the "Z" signature, the three letter pattern, word usage like "twich", scientific (?) and ,maybe secret stuff we don’t know about, etc., the SFPD clearly attribute to Zodiac "six" victims starting in "1966".

Here it is. The FBI found "consistent hand printing characteristics" between Zodiac and the Riverside Bates writings AND the Riverside desktop.

Yes but, just before that:

"For the above reasons, the hand printing of these examinations was inconclusive" (see above reasons)

Consistencies were noted and the writer may have been the same person. It was noted, but not determined.

As with Morrill, Shimoda, and the FBI…we’ll all just agree to disagree.

Yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but, yeah but…..

Sometimes you just have to play the odds. No evidence can be proven 100% Zodiac, but in this situation you have to see enough similarities to say it’s better than a 50% chance it could be Z.

You have to take the Riverside evidence as a whole. Sure if they found one single letter written on a wall that looked like Z’s it wouldn’t carry much weight. Since we have multiple similarities, we need to play the odds and lean towards the possibility Z could have been in Riverside.

If we don’t believe in any evidence, we have no way to eliminate suspects, much less shrink a suspect pool. This has lead to all the bad suspects. Have a weak suspect you like? Just link him to the continent evidence and ignore entire aspects of the case.

Really Paul_Averly? You have to resort to THAT?

You said it…"just link him to the continent evidence and ignore the entire aspects of the case". Is it ok to do this with a strong suspect and ignore aspects of the case?

This list of people with POI’s goes on and on and when they all have "linked" their suspects to the case they seem to find their reasons to agree with certain "evidence" and dismiss others. If it was found Ross was hospitalized during the LB crimes (for example), I have a feeling there would be more people considering my stance on the LB.

People tweek their beliefs to suit the evidence.

The FBI did not conclude the letters were that of Zodiac, no matter what spin one wants to put on it.