Well fortunately mine actually makes sense and should be considered just as much as the other theories have here. Actually I believe I am right and those theories were wrong. I am 100% confident in this. I would hate to think other users jealousy in my discovery would hinder our comprehension of these symbols and Z in return. Do I need to just start a thread for the people that actually think it could be something other than a Cattle brand? Is there such a thread for that symbol? Have not been able to find one apart from the cattle prod threads (which again are a stretch imo).

Nothing wrong with your theory being considered just as anyone else’s should.

Not sure your 100% confidence will bolster anybody else’s, but feel free to share it.

Quoting JRoberson- "Maybe he just made it up, like Goldcatcher conjuring nonsense about Richard Gaikowski, and certain people claiming they were stalked by the Zodiac back in 1968/69.
People lie. They exaggerate. They hallucinate. They’re often delusional. They like to make up things about themselves so they look more important than they are.
Just because so and so said such and such doesn’t mean it’s true.
Regardless, if "Zode" claimed such a thing, and there’s no reason to think he’s The Zodiac, then the only logical conclusion is that he’s lying and/or mentally unsound.
Sorry.
Oh, and in anticipation of your reply: perhaps a number of people did in fact offer testimony buttressing "Zode’s" claims, but then…plenty of people said Bob Barnett acted in a highly-incriminating manner in and around the time Cheri Jo Bates was killed, and we know how that turned out"

I don’t understand this post,and maybe this info belongs in the ZODE thread in the Suspects section, but this is flat out, TRUE. This happened, this Guy called himself Zodiac in the early to mid 60s,he admitted it, tried to downplay it, and seemed embarrassed by it. I have a picture of a yearbook signed by him, signed as, ZODIAC. If you don’t believe Belli & Graysmith, how about the Guy himself, or the Member here that went to school with him? There’s no doubt, this Guy called himself that-by ALL ACCOUNTS, and as far as the accompanying stories about him,and the things he said and did,perhaps they have been exaggerated,made up,etc, I don’t know,I wasn’t there. But,calling himself Zodiac, it happened, it’s a fact. If the phrase, ‘This is the Zodiac Speaking’ came out of his Mouth prior to the Zodiac Killer using it, it would be very unlikely that the Killer didn’t steal this phrase from Zode, and therefore,knew Zode in some way.

Here’s a signature from him in the 1964 Pacific HS Yearbook

Reasons C.J. Bates was not killed by the Zodiac

1 – Shoe print size at Riverside is a size 8 1/2 and the shoe print size found at Lake Berryessa is a 10

2 – Watch found at Riverside is that a 7 inch wrist , a small wrist by any means. This does not match any description of the zodiac.

3 – C.J Bates murder not listed on Lake Berryessa car door

4 – DNA and print evidence from C.J. Bates’s murderer were recovered from the scene. Once the connection to the Zodiac was made
there is no doubt that a comparison was done. As we have never heard of a match this leads me to believe that the results came back negative.

5 – Zodiac never mentions any Riverside murder until after Paul Avery gives him credit for it. Even then Zodiac simply mentions "riverside activity".

6 – Killing does not match Zodiac. C.J Bates was killed in a forceful manner. She was allowed the ability to fight her atttacker while being murdered. No confirmed Zodiac victim was offered the same chance.

Il address briefly some of the connections people use to connect Zodiac to C.J Bates.

The desktop poem – I see no connection between the poem and murder of C.J Bates, anyone who does is simply guessing. There is no evidence the two are linked.

Desktop poem handwriting – Without getting my amateur handwriting opinion in the way lets simply look at the facts. Morrill thinks its a match for zodiac. Shimoda does not. FBI consider it inconclusive. I think we can fairly say this leaves us unsure.

The bates letters – Again if we look to the handwriting experts for answers we again get a verdict of inconclusive. Morrill yes, Shimoda no, FBI inconclusive. While confession letters are not very common there is cases of this happening. Saying it looks like Zodiac activity is simply not good enough.

This leaves us with double stamps and a spelling mistake, again these things happen and in my opinion are evidence of nothing.

If we stick to the facts in this case the link between Zodiac and the murder of C.J is simply not there.

Another thread is currently discussing a new suspect, and efforts being made to contact the handwriting expert in that case:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3235

The whole handwriting thing has got me thinking, and I am tending to agree with this post quoted above. I’ll add another reason why Z might have had nothing to do with the CJB case:

A lot of us believe Z got more satisfaction from his writings, taunting the police and seeking publicity, rather than the killing. The attacks (I exclude LB, because it is such an outlier that I tend to think it wasn’t "real" Z) were basically hits. If this is the case, why did he wait 7 months to write, and take credit for, his Lake Herman killings?

I’m starting to think Z had nothing to do with the CJB case. If he had, he would’ve written about LH much sooner than he did, because that would have been his primary motive and plan from the start. That’s what was done in Riverside; kill and gloat. But Z didn’t gloat about LH until many months later, which means it either wasn’t possible (like, serving a 6-month sentence for something) or it hadn’t yet occurred to him. In the latter case, that would mean he had no "Riverside activity," at least not involving CJB.

So, all that really ties the CJB case to the Z case is "expert handwriting analysis." But if this is dubious at best and near worthless at worst, then that really seems to break the link between the two cases. Throw out the handwriting analysis and the cases are considerably different: One gloats very soon, the other waits 7 months before it occurs to him to gloat. One uses a small knife and fights with the victim, the other shoots defenseless victims.

So this is why the handwriting expert Sandy contacted in that other thread, who is working on this new suspect, would be interesting to hear from. Specifically, for the purpose of reconsidering the Z-Riverside link, and to help clarify that it really is a very inexact… (I won’t call it "science.") I think a lot of time and energy on the Z case may have been incorrectly spent on that Riverside connection theory.

Reasons C.J. Bates was not killed by the Zodiac

1 – Shoe print size at Riverside is a size 8 1/2 and the shoe print size found at Lake Berryessa is a 10

2 – Watch found at Riverside is that a 7 inch wrist , a small wrist by any means. This does not match any description of the zodiac.

3 – C.J Bates murder not listed on Lake Berryessa car door

4 – DNA and print evidence from C.J. Bates’s murderer were recovered from the scene. Once the connection to the Zodiac was made
there is no doubt that a comparison was done. As we have never heard of a match this leads me to believe that the results came back negative.

5 – Zodiac never mentions any Riverside murder until after Paul Avery gives him credit for it. Even then Zodiac simply mentions "riverside activity".

The bates letters – Again if we look to the handwriting experts for answers we again get a verdict of inconclusive. Morrill yes, Shimoda no

1 – Shoe prints could have been size 8 to 10, not size 8 1/2.
2 – Big guys can have 7" wrists, no proof the watch was worn by the killer.
3 – Good reason for not listing an early murder that can link one to their home town.
4 – DNA and prints have not been compared
5 – see #3
– Shimoda didn’t say anything about the Riverside letters, you are probably referring to the 1978 letter.

I see no reason to dismiss all the Riverside evidence based on these points.

Shimoda didn’t say anything about the Riverside letters, you are probably referring to the 1978 letter.

Shimoda did review the Riverside letters.

Morf….

Student who used the name Zodiac….

I found this interesting, I’m not saying it means anything, but it’s interesting to me.

The word (zodiac) written next to the pics….It appears that there is a purple dot way to the right of the (i), next to the ()) symbol. Z dotted his (i’s) to the right of the letter itself. also the (c) is open like pointing to the sky, something Z’s (c’s) did at times. Just an observation.

Bay Area60s

I think the kid was just a goofy kid, but some of the similarities make you think. I’m sure over time and once Z was known some of the HS folklore became expanded as it usually does over time….

If I’m not mistaken Bay, another student wrote that.

If I’m not mistaken Bay, another student wrote that.

God it’s been so long,I can’t remember if he wrote that or another student did. I want to say, he did. I think the letter Z matched a letter Z he handwrote to me. Check the thread for him & see if you can find the writing I posted

Here is the thread:

http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=72

In morf’s post regarding his phone interview here is the relevant part regarding the yearbook signature.

My Phone Interview of ZODE:

*In the yearbook photo that has the word ZODIAC written to the left of his photo, he says he did NOT write that next to his name in the yearbook. He never signed anything ZODIAC although he called himself that

Perhaps contradictory is a post with a scan of the image naming it as ‘Zode’s Signature’. I say perhaps because I don’t seem to have, or can find, a cursive sample of Zode’s writing. Morf are you saying in the post below that you have cursive examples?

Zode’s Yearbook signature from 64-65

Here’s the post with the uppercase example and more possible contradictions regarding the writing or how Zode wrote.

Zode’s Printing samples:

ZODE’s printing samples:

I gave him the words & phrase to write. He says he can not print in lower case because he can not control the pen well, due to an injury or defect he had when he was born.

On this link about ZODE, http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true … iac+killer

His fellow classmate states that "He preferred to use wide soft pencils, and printed, rather than wrote, in a childish scrawl". The materials I have written by Zode, show just the opposite, that he writes in cursive much easier than he prints, and when he prints, he can only print in all caps, or so he claims.

Also in the link above, the classmate also writes: "The handwriting
found on a desk at San Bernardino Valley College, closely
resembled that of "Zode", which I saw once in a paper he
wrote about one of the girls in the class, and which outraged the
instructor to the point of threatening him that "if he ever wrote
anything like that again, he was going to call the police".

I dont know if the writer meant the desktop poem at RCC, or if there was another desktop writing on a desk at San Bernardino Valley college, but Zode DID go to San Bernardino County College.

Tahoe….You may be right, I thought it was by the goofy kid who called himself Z. I know we’ve discussed this many times over the years, wish I could recall all the messages. I guess it doesn’t get easier from here on out…..

thanks,

Bay….

Tahoe….You may be right, I thought it was by the goofy kid who called himself Z. I know we’ve discussed this many times over the years, wish I could recall all the messages. I guess it doesn’t get easier from here on out…..

thanks,

Bay….

Sure doesn’t.

I’m fairly sure it was a classmates yearbook and they wrote the nickname next to his photo.

Setting Zode aside for a moment, the questions I’d like to get opinions on are these:

1. Was Z’s primary motive in killing to gain attention through his letters and codes?
2. If "yes" to that, why did he wait over 7 months to take credit for Lake Herman Road?

My conclusion is this: It hadn’t occurred to him to brag about LHR immediately… the idea of writing letters came to him months later. If this is true it implies he was not involved with CJB, or even familiar with the case, because if he had been, the idea of writing to brag about his crimes would’ve been well known to him, probably meaning question #1 above was "yes" and therefore leaving unexplained why the long delay in claiming LHR as his work.

The CJB confession letter was written a month after the murder. Why would the same guy wait 7 months to claim LHR?

Looking forward to hearing opinions on this. Thanks in advance.

Marshall….

Hard to look into the mind of a serial, it’s an ever changing mindset….I think if we look at 12/20/68, and than 7/5/69, then came the birth of Z, and truly it only lasted 13 weeks, before he pulled the plug. I think he proved from his actions he wasn’t a newcomer to murder by 1969. You don’t have 2 nights of experience and then begin to taunt LE and communicate the way he did, that confidence to me comes from years of getting away with murder, feeling invincible. Did he do CJB? Who knows….I think that since there was any communication made by the killer limits the field of serial’s greatly. Not many broadcast their killings. Then why not write about all his conquests? Cause he didn’t want to, he didn’t feel the need to, wasn’t ready for the attention at the time, hadn’t developed the game yet, was having too much fun..Do we think whoever killed CJB and wrote about it, that it was their sole murder, once done was out of their system, and just went on with their lives, their mission was accomplished? Not what they said in their communication. That’s highly unlikely. Whoever killed CJB stalked her, where she lived, to some degree, knew of her. And so if the killer of CJB killed again where was their letters to the victims family, their communication to LE, to the news? there wasn’t any. Except in a few years there became someone who did communicate. and based on that I can never fully shake Z from being the same person who killed CJB.

Marshall, I have to agree with Bay to some degree — while there was plenty of murder and other crimes occurring during this time period, there wasn’t much that stands out in the way that both CJB and the later Zodiac crimes do — it is hard not to draw parallels.

Of course we are looking back through the lens of time, and there could have been plenty going on that we will never know — still, it is hard to rule out these events at least potentially being related. The lag time between LHR and a letter could be explained by jail time or something else that interrupted a reaction from Z. I do believe that the persona of Z evolved over time, and became a result of the reaction LE, the public, and the media gave him.