I am really struck by the fact that this case seems to really be more of a Bundy-type thing than a Z-type killing.
The ONLY thing that really links this to Z is his own claims, and the letters. Letters are unusual, but they aren’t THAT unusual. And throwing in Bates just on that basis doesn’t strike me as very solid. Z is a thrill killer more than anything and often these types of murders are absent any kind of sexual motive or sadism. I always think back to Bryan Hartnell’s assertion that the killer actually said to him, "I’m nervous". And the only time he really showed brute force was AFTER the kids were tied up. NONE of his murders showed the brazenness or up-close aspect- it seems a very DISORGANIZED crime whereas that flies in the face of all of what we know about Z.
I know alot of people use the excuse that this was an early crime and he was still getting his method right, but the focus on GUNS in Z’s own self-crafted mythology and the fact that this focus jibes with the evidence and the whole persona just makes a knife killing (of this sort) really, really counterintuitive to Z in my opinion. There is a FAR bigger difference between Bates and the rest of the crimes, while the differences between, say, Paul Stine and the rest are still falling within his known methodology to some degree. And you have that letter with the stained shirt. It is still, pardon the expression, of a piece. Bates is just this from-left-field thing that makes no real sense. You would think a guy like that would go on to commit the same sorts of crimes, but bloodier, more mutilations, etc. This just does not jibe with Z in any way, shape or form. Name ONE serial killer that knifed someone, then afterwards decided it didn’t "get him off" and decided to shoot people instead. I have looked for this and found nothing. I would welcome any disagreement on this matter, actually, because I have searched pretty deeply and after being a student of true crime for 30 years I have not heard of this, except for Berkowitz’ two early stabbings, one of which has never been positively identified and may have never happened. ANd she lived. Seems the first kill of any serial killer bears the basic hallmarks of his later crimes. You might imagine someone shooting, then deciding its not quite enough of a thrill, and switching to a knife. But the reverse I have not found in any of the literature other than Berkowitz.
The biggest and most telling thing to me is the killer mentioning "she didn’t put up much of a fight". This is wrong. She had defensive wounds on her hands and arms. She certainly seemed to manage to tear off his watch. This to me, coupled with the fact that the letters re. this case arrived something like a month after the crimes (and seemed to be precipitated by the local paper running a story on the case) and actually got the facts of it WRONG (it also seems silly, that, "its time for you to die" bit) just seems on the whole to be a very obvious sick joke. If he had given us something that was NOT in the papers, or if the letters had arrived RIGHT AFTER the crime, that would have been a shoe-in. But instead, it sounds like someone having a laugh. And giving us NO information or the WRONG information.
The poem on the desktop to me is one of the most tenuous pieces of "evidence" I can think of. Its funny, because going through the FBI files you can see LOADS of handwriting that matches Z’s on the surface. Hilariously, this is all written by the agents. I think Z simply wrote in that same manner that draftsmen and surveyors are taught to write in. Surveying is especially important to have clear, readable writing when filling out the plats. VERY important to be precise and our letter "s" and our "5’s" had to be especially so. A draftsman’s hand is what Z had, and what millions who are taught to write in a concise way would have. Block letters carved/written with a ballpoint in a desk seems to me the weakest possible method from gleaning anything from a writer. Plus, as I have read pointed out, it could also be a suicidal poem. Morbid poetic coeds writing some poetic morbid hoohah. And they give their initials?
Anyway, personally after looking at it a long time I see nothing really that ties this in. However, the less I look at Bates as a good Z victim, the better Linda Edwards and R. Domingos seem. I mean, THAT has ALL the hallmarks of Z-in-his-infancy. ALL of em. In fact Berryessa looks like his chance to do it RIGHT. Someone DID spot someone on the same beach shooting at gulls the day before and described him as having reddish hair. To me, if that was baby Z, he was probably TERRIFIED of getting caught and laid low, and then proceeds to shoot people in very low-risk situations and covering his tracks better. That would quite gracefully explain the fact that at LB he wore a mask. People have wondered endlessly why he did that- and to me- the ’63 killing explains it perfectly. He didn’t want to take that risk, like last time. I am going to really dig to find more crimes like this as i am sure many have, but I really would like to know statistically how often SoCal or Cal as a whole had killings that fit with this. If there are only a few, that tells me it had to be Z, just starting out. It makes way, way too much sense- far more sense than Bates does. Thoughts?
Well, MysteryMachine, you are welcome to your opinions, but a couple things here. Cheri was savagely stabbed. That DOES match t he Lake Berryessa M.O. Letters mailed to police and/or newspapers from persons claiming that they are killer, are simply, VERY UNCOMMON. Out of all the hundreds and hundreds(or thousands)of murders in CA alone, how many featured letters mailed to the news or police? Not many. Not many at all. I did a search across the country, and only found a very small amount of letters from people claiming to be the killer.
If you add up the letter writing campaigns in both the Z & Bates cases, the similarity of stabbing victims,there is more in common than not I would say. Take it a step further, both the Bates confession letter writer & Zodiac, both used the word, ‘SHALL’, a word not commonly used by people. Both also misspelled the word, TWITCH/TWICH. The confession letter claims he made a phone call after the Bates murder, something Z was known to do. The Z like symbols on bottom of Bates letters….Finally, I would also refer you to Traveller1st’s handwriting analysis between the Bates writer & Zodiac writing, for me, it’s clear, whether or not Z Bates was killed by Z, I think he at least wrote the letters in her case.
Again, have an open mind, and look at both sides of the coin. You may sway one way or another. I am on the fence as to whether or not Z killed Bates, but I think he definitely wrote the stuff in her case
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
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I’ve expressed my beliefs about Cheri, but in regards to Edwards and Domingos I question them as Zodiac victims as well. We know there were guys who, for some sick reason, liked to shoot people on beaches in Southern California–this had happened more than once over the years. But, there were aspects of this case that also seemed not like Zodiac. More-so with Linda.
We also have Zodiac not trying to stake his claim to it, but because he says there were a lot more "down there" the entire state of California gets thrown into the mix.
Take Zodiac into consideration? Absolutely!! As a factual case of his crimes? No.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
I’ve expressed my beliefs about Cheri, but in regards to Edwards and Domingos I question them as Zodiac victims as well. We know there were guys who, for some sick reason, liked to shoot people on beaches in Southern California–this had happened more than once over the years. But, there were aspects of this case that also seemed not like Zodiac. More-so with Linda.
We also have Zodiac not trying to stake his claim to it, but because he says there were a lot more "down there" the entire state of California gets thrown into the mix.
Take Zodiac into consideration? Absolutely!! As a factual case of his crimes? No.
Not to go off topics, but RE: Domingos/Edwards, if the rumor mill is true, and wingwalker tracks were found at the scene, would you think it’s more likely they are Z victims?
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
I think you can make a decent argument for both sides, really. Personally I’m leaning towards Bates not being a Z crime and Z not being the letter writer either. But I’m not certain at all.
Here’s a thought which struck me just now. Z strikes at LHR. That was his first kill (I’m theorizing). He had no doubt planned it well enough, staked out a spot, etc. But he hadn’t developed that feature which was to become his most prominent, namely the letter writing/taunting. With BRS everything fell into place. He started his letter campaign and took credit for LHR in his first missive as the "fully fledged" Zodiac (well, the moniker was missing – but close enough).
If this is more or less right, the Bates missives arguably do not fit in. He wrote these two years prior to LHR, yet didn’t think to "follow up" on this trademark. The letter writing becomes his main trait as soon as the idea strikes him – so it seems. To me it’s problematic, then, that he after having posted letters and notes aplenty subsequent to Bates, fails to do so after LHR.
A minor point, perhaps, but I mention it nonetheless.
I think you can make a decent argument for both sides, really. Personally I’m leaning towards Bates not being a Z crime and Z not being the letter writer either. But I’m not certain at all.
Here’s a thought which struck me just now. Z strikes at LHR. That was his first kill (I’m theorizing). He had no doubt planned it well enough, staked out a spot, etc. But he hadn’t developed that feature which was to become his most prominent, namely the letter writing/taunting. With BRS everything fell into place. He started his letter campaign and took credit for LHR in his first missive as the "fully fledged" Zodiac (well, the moniker was missing – but close enough).
If this is more or less right, the Bates missives arguably do not fit in. He wrote these two years prior to LHR, yet didn’t think to "follow up" on this trademark. The letter writing becomes his main trait as soon as the idea strikes him – so it seems. To me it’s problematic, then, that he after having posted letters and notes aplenty subsequent to Bates, fails to do so after LHR.
A minor point, perhaps, but I mention it nonetheless.
I’d always thought about it this way as a possibility:
*Z lives in Riverside, and reads about the Bates murder, but didn’t kill her. Being the twisted freak he was, and having fantasized about killing, he mails the Bates case letters even taking credit for the murders.
*Z writes on the door at Berryessa and he does not mention the Bates case on the door, because he did not kill her.
But there’s another possibility:
*Z killed Bates, and wrote the letters in her case
*Z didn’t mention Bates in his Letters to the SF Chron or on the door, because,
A) He didn’t want the police know he lived in Riverside in 66-67 because it would narrow down suspects
or
B)He didn’t consider her as a ‘Zodiac’ victim
When Bates was linked to Zodiac, he admitted to it, but was he lying and trying to capitalize, or was he worried because he was involved in her case? That’s a million dollar question
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
He wasn’t Zodiac yet at LHR or BRS either. He kept getting called "Cipher Slayer". Seems like Zodiac came as an afterthought.
morf–If the WingWalkers were the same exact size with the same exact imprint, it would for sure be one more check mark in favor of Zodiac, but until it is no longer a rumor that is all I can say. From what I know, there is no proven link to Zodiac–just similarities.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
While we’re talking about footprints, let’s not forget that those found at Berryessa and those found in Riverside were of distinctly different sizes.
All really good points here.
I still really don’t feel like Cheri Jo Bates getting stabbed and the stabbings at Lake B were terribly alike. Cheri Jo Bates seems so much more typical of a disorganized killer, or someone who knew her well. There is alot of rage there, and sure, Z had rage but it wasn’t the rage of a specific type, but a sort of a free-floating thing. CJB seems really personal to me. And they had a really good suspect in the case, someone who had dated Cheri Jo and was very unhappy about being jilted, and she DID tell friends that she was meeting her boyfriend. And how can you explain the fact that the letter writer said "she didn’t put up a fight" when she very much DID? Nothing in those letters tells you anything you couldn’t get from the paper. That is telling.
And the fact that he tied them up beforehand, at LB, that is SO different from the way in which Cheri Jo was killed, and so similar to the beach murders. And, the watch found by CJB was a wrist size 7 inches. That is a very small frame for a man. Doesn’t match the other descriptions of Z at all. Never seen a dude 6 foot with a belly hanging over his pants with dainty wrists.
Yes, letters are somewhat unusual but I don’t think that is a strong enough tie to link them together. Handwriting analysis from a desktop, in which you have to probably overscore many times, and write in a different way than you would on paper, doesn’t really seem to be a great piece to do analysis on. Take 20 people and get them to scrawl on a desk, its gonna turn out somewhat similar. Ever tried to write on a wooden surface? I have, and the grain makes it tougher to write naturally. And after all, he did say (if its even a HE who wrote on the desk), "red dress". Cheri wasn’t wearing a red dress.
Add that to the fact that, as I said earlier, Z’s writing tends to show that careful, readable draftsman’s hand. A perfect hand to match up with you-name-it. Like I said, looking at the FBI files I can come up with dozens of samples that look Z-ish- and are also written by the agents. Handwriting seems to be so tricky in this case. And for what its worth, that is strong evidence that it wasn’t ALA, since apparently he was a messy writer. Tho his handwriting on his job app looks pretty damn good for Z to me- but again, he wouldn’t have been writing in a fluid way the way you write in your diary. You are far more careful on your job apps than you are writing a "little list".
I agree that there were other killings of this nature, and even the fact that a bootprint was found leading to the shack on the beach doesn’t tell you much considering the number of people on the scene and the lack of security there. Lompoc is an hour away, Vallejo was a Navy town, but I agree, I wouldn’t put that as being particularly compelling. Simply too many suspects, thousands probably, if you make that important. And after all, he could have gotten those boots second hand from an army store. I got lots of stuff from military surplus.
The thing that gets me about LE and RD is that he had rope with him. He was prepared. He was about to tie the victims up before he did anything. That is so like Z its amazing to me. That is a real signature. And he attempted to burn the shack after placing the bodies there. By knife, by fire, etc.. Its a couple. By the water. Much more fits with Z in this case than Cheri Jo. All you have are some letters with no info that couldn’t have been gotten from the papers, and a desktop of dubious meaning. It wouldn’t surprise me if we find out that desktop had ZERO meaning. Tho you would think that someone would have came forward by now to say, "nah, I wrote that, I was just being silly and dramatic". You would think someone would.
I don’t remember seeing a single reference to the Refugio murders in his letters. But he does claim credit for Cheri Jo Bates. Perhaps perversely, this shows to me that he DID commit the beach murders but he wasn’t confident in it, he must have been on someone’s radar and felt that if any killing could snare him it would be his earlier, stupider, less planned murders. SO he wouldn’t take credit for them. But sure, CJB? Yeah. Just like Kathleen Johns. There is no risk in claiming credit for murders you didn’t commit, but it certainly pumps up your ego, sends the cop scurrying off on a wild goose chase.Whereas if you take credit for those you did in your killing infancy, as it were, that might shine a light on you because you simply don’t feel confident you pulled it off right and may have misplaced something that you felt could nab you. Whereas he left his WATCH at CBJ. What kind of idiot is gonna take a chance on claiming credit for that, not knowing if cops have info that could match up to him?
What is interesting with Cheri Jo is he DIDN’T claim her. He only mentioned they discovered his "activity".
TMM–what city are you mentioning Lompoc being an hour away from?
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
What is interesting with Cheri Jo is he DIDN’T claim her. He only mentioned they discovered his "activity".
Indeed. A typical business like confirmation from Z, one might say.
Unlike the confession author Z never went into details of the, well, creepy sort regarding his victims. Some technical details in order to prove he did it – but there is nothing in his correspondence which echoes the confession writer’s "intimate" style.
That’s more of an argument against Z being the killer than against him being the letter writer, though – or so one could say. If he didn’t kill her, he didn’t write intimately about HIS victim and as such he could have, I don’t know, parodied a real confession for kicks. I wouldn’t put that past him, actually.
What is interesting with Cheri Jo is he DIDN’T claim her. He only mentioned they discovered his "activity".
TMM–what city are you mentioning Lompoc being an hour away from?
Sorry, I mean that Lompoc and the Base there was about an hour away from the scene- Vandenberg AFB- the Linda Edwards/Domingos murder. So those wingwalkerish prints might not be as telling as they would be if a base wasn’t so close by.
What is interesting with Cheri Jo is he DIDN’T claim her. He only mentioned they discovered his "activity".
Indeed. A typical business like confirmation from Z, one might say.
Unlike the confession author Z never went into details of the, well, creepy sort regarding his victims. Some technical details in order to prove he did it – but there is nothing in his correspondence which echoes the confession writer’s "intimate" style.
That’s more of an argument against Z being the killer than against him being the letter writer, though – or so one could say. If he didn’t kill her, he didn’t write intimately about HIS victim and as such he could have, I don’t know, parodied a real confession for kicks. I wouldn’t put that past him, actually.
Yeah, the tone of the letter and the narrative he goes into doesn’t really fit. And I always found that "Time for you to die" bit a little silly. Like they were writing a giallo flick or something. The misspellings aren’t very telling, not that I am completely satisfied that he isn’t involved but its FAR more likely he is claiming credit just to do.
But this is still Riverside’s only unsolved homicide. If it were so easy to solve, you think they would have by now.
Another clear discrepancy between the known Z letters and the Bates missives is the naming of the victim. Z never names any of his victims, which is in keeping with his detached treatment of them in general. It’s "the cab driver", "the kids", "those people in the north bay area", "the woeman". And "my activities" in Riverside and more of the same "down there". Very unspecific and never a name mentioned.
Another clear discrepancy between the known Z letters and the Bates missives is the naming of the victim. Z never names any of his victims, which is in keeping with his detached treatment of them in general. It’s "the cab driver", "the kids", "those people in the north bay area", "the woeman". And "my activities" in Riverside and more of the same "down there". Very unspecific and never a name mentioned.
Yep, it occurs to me that maybe I ought to look at horror movies or thrillers from the period, because that "time for you to die" bit is so trite- this "confession" could even be prose someone wrote inspired by a film from the period. And yes, he never went into those kinds of gory details unless you want to count the "little list" letter- and he was just taking off on "the Mikado". The terrible thing is that this whole Z connection undoubtably allowed the real killer to get away.
And Z’s assertion that "there are alot more of them down there" is a little stupid. This is Riverside’s only unsolved crime….unless he was talking about SoCal as a whole. And I tend to think it was just his wanting to put fear into people. Funny how he only claimed certain victims in the phone calls and NEVER CJB. And again, the size 7 wristwatch could not possibly have fit a man of Z’s size if you consider that the VERY BEST idea we have of how he looks comes from Bryan Hartnell. Makes no sense. A wild goose chase.
