I’d like to add to the pushback against the many, many posts and threads in which The Zodiac’s involvement in Riverside is heavily promoted – to the point where it must seem to a lot of board members here that to "naysay" anything is heresy. And the sheer volume of pro Z-Riverside posts gives the impression that there’s a truly credible connection.

Over the years on these forums, I have not seen ANY compelling evidence or convincing arguments whatsoever that Z participated in the Riverside episode.

It’s another topic where Tahoe gets grief for not buying into other people’s (in my opinion, highly doubtful) deductions and conclusions.

Actually RTF, I think there are many who feel Zodiac was not involved in any riverside activities. I am pretty new here but I would guess that even the veteran Zodiackers are still divided on the link. I think it is very worthy of debate because if we could be certain either way about any of the non-cannon murders explicitly claimed (Bates,Johns,Lass) we would be much better equipped to deal with the mystery of how much Zodiac lied (or didn’t).

I believe Cheri Bates’ was likely Z’s 1st victim. However, her murder is so compelling that I’ve concentrated on it, and won’t waste time arguing the pros and cons of Z’s involvement.
Re Riverside PD: several times in the past I contacted them re the Bates case and was immediately (and forcefully) told that "The so-called Zodiac did NOT kill Cheri Bates!" End of discussion.
However, I’m always good for one more try. If anyone knows an RPD rep who is willing to discuss a Bates case POI unrelated to the Zodiac murders, please email me.

^^To make things more confusing…there is talk of the Exorcist letter being fake.

Just that…talk.. I don’t believe that ‘talk‘

If we were to believe from the onset that Bates was a Zodiac victim, then the only explanation for all of the suspects and POI’s on this forum being in Riverside killing Bates is this: Ross, Kaczynski, Allen and Gaikowski were the men seen sitting on the fence. The other explanation is somebody is wrong.

I think your post was a logical one, CMLO. I just had to highlight that last part as it made me chuckle a bit.

You stated something very important. Cheri Jo’s case has to be looked at independently, aside of all the Zodiac mumbo-jumbo. That’s not to say it shouldn’t have been considered at all. They did, and it was…and still will be, if necessary.

I think some tend to forget the Riverside Police Department isn’t trying to figure out who Zodiac was…they are trying to figure out who killed Cheri. At this point, DNA and greasy fingerprints are really all they have.

I have often expressed anyone who contacts the RPD do so without mentioning Zodiac. I wish you luck!

Agreed, RPD doesn’t think that Bates was killed by Zodiac, they thought there was a possibility years earlier, hence looking into it sending a letter to Napa County Sheriff’s dept, however, they have long believed ‘Bob Barnett’ was the killer despite DNA evidence found not matching him. I also think that RPD & Zodiac investigators likely have concluded that Zodiac didn’t kill Bates. I agree with both RPD & Zodiac investigators that Cheri wasn’t killed by Zodiac. But that doesn’t diminish the fact that the writings, words, phrases, M.O. etc, is quite similar in the two cases.

I have been absorbing posts all week but I still do not see Zodiac connected to Bates. It is tragic that a young life was taken and people believe that is what is important here, but the case will only get solved if the right path is taken. I strongly believe the Zodiac path is not the correct one. I also strongly believe the writer of the SHTD/BHTD letters and CONFESSION was not the killer of Ms. Bates, It is even possible the letters themselves were written by two different people but I rarely work with possibilities; I prefer probability. Analyzing the letters indicates the author was young (possibly in the late teen- early twenty range). If this proves correct, I think this rules out it being a Zodiac case. I am still trying to finesse some help from Riverside without ruffling feathers or costing someone their job. I get the impression that most of the hostility stems from being called inept, or being told the Zodiac killed Bates.

And Mr. Morrill made critical errors in analyzing the documents. He was a QDE but there was nothing of significance to compare exemplars with. I believe Mr. Morrill determined a connection linguistically, and that was not his forte. I haven’t figured the desk top poem into the scenario yet; it’s discovery seems convenient. Mr. Morrill, being the States top QDE, had to be aware that a definitive connection, nor a probable connection for that matter, could have been determined from dissimilar exemplars. At best, a possibility exists but possibility is only two letters away from being an impossibility. If someone wants, or needs, to use Bates as another cog in their Zodiac theory, I suggest they do what I did and find a disinterested QDE to reexamine the documents. They’ll find that no one wants to give any definitive response, especially since the exemplars are not originals.

I know there is a lot of skepticism surrounding QDE’s, and there are those QDE’s that add to that skepticism. Gary Stewart said he searched weeks before he was able to find a QDE that "fulfilled [his] request." That tells me he passed on a lot of good ones before finding the one that would stoop to writing a 65-page report on one single signature. Even Shimoda disagreed with Morrill proving that any professional used by the prosecution can be refuted by a like-professional from the defense.

I guess the point I’m trying to make without ruffling any feathers HERE is that people should invest in their own studies rather than use outdated opinions. The Bates homicide is a tragedy; the Zodiac homicides are a tragedy. I know we would all like to see them resolved. However, varying beliefs on the relation between the two will cause both to remain unsolved. The Bates homicide will remain unsolved as long as we are split on whether the Zodiac was involved or not. The Zodiac crimes will remain unsolved for the same reason. An investigation cannot truly begin if there is no beginning. The Zodiac case should begin at Lake Herman Road; Bates should be investigated independently. If the paths intersect later, fine. If not, at least we have two solid beginnings for two tragic cases.

If we were to believe from the onset that Bates was a Zodiac victim, then the only explanation for all of the suspects and POI’s on this forum being in Riverside killing Bates is this: Ross, Kaczynski, Allen and Gaikowski were the men seen sitting on the fence. The other explanation is somebody is wrong.

Can you post or share your training background & experience in questioned documents examination? Sorry, I just crack up a bit when people with no training or experience question a trained, respected and experienced expert in the case who was the state’s top questioned docs examiner. Forget Morrill for a second. For people like myself, I don’t even need Morrill, I believe what I see with my own eyes. The numerous similarities in words, phrases, same misspellings, wanting to be published in paper, use of felt tip pen, etc,etc, just backs up Morrill’s findings, and in my untrained eye, I see some writing similarity as well. I’ve tried to give up on debating with people on the facts of the case. You can teach somebody to fish, but if they won’t bait their hook, you can’t do anything else for them. The fact is, the Bates case is indeed connected to the Zodiac case via questioned docs, and the FBI could find nothing to refute this claim. So the rest of us can debate back and forth all we want, but facts are facts(even if some of us don’t agree with them)

I’d like to add to the pushback against the many, many posts and threads in which The Zodiac’s involvement in Riverside is heavily promoted – to the point where it must seem to a lot of board members here that to "naysay" anything is heresy. And the sheer volume of pro Z-Riverside posts gives the impression that there’s a truly credible connection.

Over the years on these forums, I have not seen ANY compelling evidence or convincing arguments whatsoever that Z participated in the Riverside episode.

It’s another topic where Tahoe gets grief for not buying into other people’s (in my opinion, highly doubtful) deductions and conclusions.

Again, read the reports. Morrill an expert said they were. The FBI didn’t dispute his findings. The connection is in the DOJ reports. Facts are facts, the writing (according to the experts investigating the Zodiac case)in the Bates case belongs to Zodiac. As amateur sleuths here, we can all debate back and forth,and not agree with their findings, but officially the writing is connected to Zodiac

Can you post or share your training background & experience in questioned documents examination? Sorry, I just crack up a bit when people with no training or experience question a trained, respected and experienced expert in the case who was the state’s top questioned docs examiner. Forget Morrill for a second. For people like myself, I don’t even need Morrill, I believe what I see with my own eyes. The numerous similarities in words, phrases, same misspellings, wanting to be published in paper, use of felt tip pen, etc,etc, just backs up Morrill’s findings, and in my untrained eye, I see some writing similarity as well. I’ve tried to give up on debating with people on the facts of the case. You can teach somebody to fish, but if they won’t bait their hook, you can’t do anything else for them. The fact is, the Bates case is indeed connected to the Zodiac case via questioned docs, and the FBI could find nothing to refute this claim. So the rest of us can debate back and forth all we want, but facts are facts(even if some of us don’t agree with them)

I see I have ruffled some feathers and that was not my intention. I apologize.

I had to go back and reread my post to ensure I had not misspoken. I believe what I wrote was, "If someone wants, or needs, to use Bates as another cog in their Zodiac theory, I suggest they do what I did and find a disinterested QDE to reexamine the documents. They’ll find that no one wants to give any definitive response, especially since the exemplars are not originals."

So, in answer to your request to post MY training background and experience in QDE, I wasn’t aware I needed experience to hire someone else. I think you read too much into my statement. Is it possible you are reading too much into the Bates homicide as well? I walked into this case without any intimate knowledge other than what the common person hears in every day life on the street. I like walking into cases in that manner because it allows a fresh beginning. I investigated a burglary in my house fourteen years ago because I wanted to ensure the investigation was done correctly. I only trusted myself to get my property back. When a Burglary Detective was assigned to the case, he took a statement from me and started his case from the beginning, dismissing everything I had already collected. Most experienced investigators will do this.

When I retired in 2013, I started to follow the Zodiac threads in the shadows. This is my first time joining a forum. It was not my first choice but the other site was not accepting new members. I have noticed a lot of people with a lot of theories presenting a lot of subjects (POI/suspect). I also noticed that some of these people conveniently throw certain facts at people while stealthily avoiding other facts. It appears nearly impossible to sway these individuals away from even the most insane theory. Sadly, these people will probably die having wasted years of their lives never having solved the mystery of the Zodiac. But I believe there is hope for their minions. If more people created their own beginning when walking into this case, there would be less people following lost theories blindly.

In response to your second comment:

Sorry, I just crack up a bit when people with no training or experience question a trained, respected and experienced expert in the case who was the state’s top questioned docs examiner.

I am happy that I made you crack up. I was worried about feather ruffling. Perhaps I can continue to crack you up.

It is a fact that many QDE’s disagreed with Morrill’s analysis. As I commented earlier, and I paraphrase, for every professional you find to support your theory, someone else will find a like-professional to dispute it. I used Mr. Stewart as an example where he had passed on numerous QDE’s until he found one that agreed with him. Additionally, Mr. Morrill’s status as a QDE has evolved over the years as much as the Zodiac. Was he the top QDE at the time? Yes. Did this make him the best? No, and I am sure Mr. Shimoda would have agreed. Mr. Morrill was labeled California’s "top QDE" because he worked for the California Department of Justice. The District Attorney was considered the "top lawyer" in the state. For that matter, and this always cracked ME up, the US Attorney General is considered the "top law enforcement officer AND top lawyer" of the entire United States. As you can see, the title "top" was given by virtue of position and not as a recognition of expertise. If you are the owner of this forum, then you are the "top Zodiac theorist" on this site. Mr. Morrill’s position doesn’t make him more credible than other QDE’s, though some have elevated him to that position.

Here is another example from my past. Once upon a time, I issued two citations that I had to defend in court. One was to an FBI Agent and the other was to a Secret Service Agent. Everyone should agree that as federal officers, their stature is higher in the hierarchy of Law Enforcement as compared to city law enforcement officers. However, in the end, their citations were upheld because their position didn’t make them any more credible than me. As part of creating a strong beginning for the Bates case and a strong beginning for the Zodiac case, I feel investigators should stop pushing Morrill’s analysis as more credible than other QDE’s.

On to your third part,…

Forget Morrill for a second. For people like myself, I don’t even need Morrill, I believe what I see with my own eyes. The numerous similarities in words, phrases, same misspellings, wanting to be published in paper, use of felt tip pen, etc,etc, just backs up Morrill’s findings, and in my untrained eye, I see some writing similarity as well.

…would you agree this brings the conversation back to where you started? As in…

Can you post or share your training background & experience in questioned documents examination?

Finally…

I’ve tried to give up on debating with people on the facts of the case. You can teach somebody to fish, but if they won’t bait their hook, you can’t do anything else for them. The fact is, the Bates case is indeed connected to the Zodiac case via questioned docs, and the FBI could find nothing to refute this claim. So the rest of us can debate back and forth all we want, but facts are facts(even if some of us don’t agree with them)

I think I have shown that while remaining a possibility, it certainly is not a fact that Bates is related to the Zodiac. But like every other snippet of information I have read in the last couple of years, if people say something long enough without challenge, it evolves into a "fact." I guess that is why a cold case detective from San Francisco remarked that amateur sleuths online are beginning to "corrupt the Zodiac" investigation.

If you believe Bates was killed by the Zodiac, then that is where I am sure your investigation has started. But since Bates is NOT a fact, but Lake Herman Road is, I merely suggested people should start two separate investigations and let them take their course. This investigative technique is not new and has benefits. If someone starts an investigation at a false beginning and they realize it later, they must start over again having wasted time and resources. I’ve seen it happen. If you begin with a merged river, you cannot unmerge the waters back into separate paths and continue. Waters from both paths contaminate the other. On the other hand, if multiple beginnings are established, the investigations can merge like a river farther on down stream and become one investigation if warranted, or they can continue as two separate investigations if required. If the merged investigation becomes a dead end, an investigator doesn’t need to begin all over again but merely needs to return to the point before the merge.

I didn’t want to join this forum to change peoples minds; I joined to see what I could learn, and possibly help out a little along the way. I am sure people will disagree with some of my views because some people are solid in their beliefs. But I am willing to be open because I am not all knowing, and flexible to new suggestions. I already remarked Bates is a possibility, but not a fact; if I learn something later that makes Bates a fact, I can easily merge my investigations. No harm, correct?

Thanks!

Morrill was working from original materials to draw his conclusions, as was other law enforcement svcs. Anybody online coming to conclusions about the writing, or any docs examiners without access to the original materials can’t come to an informed decision.

…Gary Stewart said…

Gary Stewart had said many things. His QDE linked a priest who preformed his fathers wedding, and never been to CA as the writer of the Z letters.

I’ll trust Morrill over Gary Stewart any day.

Agreed, RPD doesn’t think that Bates was killed by Zodiac, they thought there was a possibility years earlier, hence looking into it sending a letter to Napa County Sheriff’s dept, however, they have long believed ‘Bob Barnett’ was the killer despite DNA evidence found not matching him. I also think that RPD & Zodiac investigators likely have concluded that Zodiac didn’t kill Bates. I agree with both RPD & Zodiac investigators that Cheri wasn’t killed by Zodiac. But that doesn’t diminish the fact that the writings, words, phrases, M.O. etc, is quite similar in the two cases.

But how can you agree with RPD if they still think BB is the perp?

CMLO–

Please feel free to voice your opinion. I am a moderator here and I share a different opinion than morf…we have had our debates, but I think it is a good thing to do so–when we all work together, nicely.

What you have pointed out is truth. Morrill and Shimoda disagreed…on more than one Zodiac communique. The FBI ultimately said the Riverside writings were inconclusive. They said it MAY have been as there were similarities, but in the end…didn’t confirm anything.

See the following link. viewtopic.php?f=33&t=90 –Outlined in red is part of it, but the "inconclusive" part wasn’t made a part of the outline. The FBI would tell you exactly what that report reads.

For those who give some value to expert opinion, here is a graphic put together by Morf, resized by me, that has a newspaper article quoting the determination of Sherwood Morrill and an FBI report were their examiner concurs. While officially inconclusive (probably because of the difference in items being compared), the FBI expert does say that "consistent hand printing characteristics" indicate that all Riverside materials are consistent with having been prepared by the writer of the Zodiac materials.

For those who are skeptical of experts, you can reach your own conclusions by looking at some similarities yourself.

The "R" comp was done by Paul_Averly, all others were done by Morf.

…Gary Stewart said…

Gary Stewart had said many things. His QDE linked a priest who preformed his fathers wedding, and never been to CA as the writer of the Z letters.

I’ll trust Morrill over Gary Stewart any day.

Did you misread my post, or did I misspeak? If I misspoke, I apologize. I was making a point that QDE’s can often have different results; I wasn’t elevating Mr. Stewart, nor was I comparing him to Mr. Morrill.

Thanks!

If you believe Bates was killed by the Zodiac, then that is where I am sure your investigation has started. But since Bates is NOT a fact,

Too much to respond to, so I’ll only touch on this.

This is where much of the confusion in this debate happens.
The question is not ‘who killed Bates’ the question is really ‘are the Riverside writings connected to the Zodiac case.’

Bates (and I’m not saying we dont have sympathy) could have been killed by anyone, so everyone is a suspect.

The writing has 2 realistic answers.

YES they are connected, is supported by a great deal of evidence. Even if the handwriting experts are split, there are many other things that line up.

NO… Well we don’t hear a good answer for this opinion. It leaves all the things that line up as coincidence. It’s never a good idea to ignore evidence and close the door to a possible connection.