Quicktrader, Subject: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:42 am
Yes, it could be…we had many ideas and approaches, but now I come up with sort of a ‘new’ one..we all do know about the confession letter(s), sent on November 29th 1966 from Riverside to Riverside. In this letter, the author mentions Mrs. Bates name (‘Mrs. Bates was stupid..she went to the slaughter like a lamb’). Lets have a closer look again:
I LAY AWAKE NIGHTS THINKING ABOUT MY NEXT VICTIM.
She could have been the first. At least he tries to not focus on the Bates’ murder, but claims to become a serial killer. Nevertheless he knew – and used – her name, this indicates that he might have known his victim personally. He knew her car, claims to have seen her inside the library etc..sounds as if he knew her or at least he was present at Ramona High before Cheri Jo Bates had entered the library. Otherwise how, if only being a serial killer, could he have known her name, look and which car belongs to her? To connect her as a person with her name as well as her car – as well as the fact that he know where to find her – imo requires that he had known CJB personally. Again he tries to weaken this circumstance:
MAYBE SHE WILL BE THE BEAUTIFUL BLOND THAT BABYSITS NEAR THE LITTLE STORE AND WALKS DOWN THE DARK ALLEY EACH EVENING ABOUT SEVEN.
Which little store? If Z was hanging around somewhere at Ramona High or Riverside College, which store is in that area? Where you could walk ‘down’ in an alley? Obviously he was observing this babysitter every day…but how did he know that she was babysitting at all? Could he peek through the windows?
OR MAYBE SHE WILL BE THE SHAPELY BLUE EYED BROWNETT THAT SAID NO WHEN I ASKED HER FOR A DATE IN HIGH SCHOOL.
Now we get to the point. Z (or the author) had asked her for a date in High School? We remember the ‘brush-offs’ over years, but here he actually says that he was in ‘High School’ together with CJB! I do know this is not sort of a final conclusion, but to me this sounds as if Z had gone to Ramona High, too. And later he followed her, knowing her – name, face, car, job – to Riverside College to murder her.
Actually I can find her only in the 1965 yearbook..did she change high school as she seems to be not present in the 1964?
QT
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:38 pm
I think he may have known Cheri and possible he went to school with her or worked at a school where she went too. Maybe even knew her from some place else. As for the beautiful blond phrase, I don’t believe he is talking about a actual person and just generalizing to add terror kind like Zodiac terrorize San Francisco with the bus bomb threat. Finding Cheri in the yearbook you will have to ask Morf he knows a lot more about that.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:46 pm
Want to add I think Cheri knew her killer in some sort of fashion. I think that’s how he was able to get that close to her and she must have trusted him somewhat.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:56 pm
The brunette he’s referring to can’t be Cheri. Cheri was blonde.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:10 pm
The brunette he’s referring to can’t be Cheri. Cheri was blonde.
True.
entropy, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:12 pm
The only problem I have with this line of inquiry is a lingering question of whether this letter (presuming that it was written by Zodiac) is sincere. Some of his later communications kind of soured me on his sincerity. Are the details and motivations expressed in the Confession letter (presuming once again that it was written by Zodiac) sincere?
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:17 pm
Remember the Zodiac takes very little credit for her murder and tries distract the attention from her murder, saying there is a whole lot more down there. Imo trying to get LE to look at the other crimes and not focus on Cheri Jo. Zodiac may have left a clue to his identity in the Cheri Jo Bates murder. Of Course that’s if it was a actual Zodiac crime. There is always talk about Zodiac knowing Ferrin but I actually think Cheri Jo may be the only one he really knew and the other Zodiac crimes was random.
smithy, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:24 pm
I do think it was written by "The Zodiac" and I think none of it’s sincere.
All the material in the letter was available in three newspaper articles, so if by chance he did not know her, and even (I know this is radical but I can’t help myself) didn’t kill her and had indeed never met her, he could have read the necessary material in:
The Riverside Press: Article: “RCC Coed, 18, slain on campus”
Article: “Butchered Coed’s Body Discovered” . RIVERSIDE – (AP)
Article: “One clue in Co-ed’s death”. RIVERSIDE – (AP)
I’m repeating myself, from this thread. Sorry!
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ion-letter
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:32 pm
I do think it was written by "The Zodiac" and I think none of it’s sincere.
All the material in the letter was available in three newspaper articles, so if by chance he did not know her, and even (I know this is radical but I can’t help myself) didn’t kill her and had indeed never met her, he could have read the necessary material in:
The Riverside Press: Article: “RCC Coed, 18, slain on campus”
Article: “Butchered Coed’s Body Discovered” . RIVERSIDE – (AP)
Article: “One clue in Co-ed’s death”. RIVERSIDE – (AP)I’m repeating myself, from this thread. Sorry!
I think Zodiac was at least the letter writer so that puts him in Riverside in 66 or traveling there a lot. Could he have got those newspapers outside of Riverside ?
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:39 pm
Again lets say Zodiac is proven to be the letter writer and all information about Cheri Jo murder was written in all the Riverside papers. Can we be sure Zodiac had to be in Riverside to get the news ?
smithy, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:24 am
The (AP) designation means that two of those stories were based on "wire" stories from Associated Press. That means they were part of a pool of news gathered together by this organisation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press – and could have been bought for reproduction world-wide, so of course it goes without saying that they were available right across California. He certainly didn’t need to be in Riverside for those. For the other one? Not sure.
Bottom line is, I was (at the time) trying to float the idea that the facts were all available without the writer having been anywhere near the crime scene at the time of Cheri’s murder. Maybe there’s another AP news article which helps indicate he didn’t even need to have been in the general area. I expect there is. (Whether we accept any conclusions about that fact or not, of course.)
He went there to mail the letters, though. So even if he wasn’t local, he wanted to appear to be, I suppose.
Not something he bothered with doing in Vallejo, which is interesting.
morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:30 am
Yes, it could be…we had many ideas and approaches, but now I come up with sort of a ‘new’ one..we all do know about the confession letter(s), sent on November 29th 1966 from Riverside to Riverside. In this letter, the author mentions Mrs. Bates name (‘Mrs. Bates was stupid..she went to the slaughter like a lamb’). Lets have a closer look again:
I LAY AWAKE NIGHTS THINKING ABOUT MY NEXT VICTIM.
She could have been the first. At least he tries to not focus on the Bates’ murder, but claims to become a serial killer. Nevertheless he knew – and used – her name, this indicates that he might have known his victim personally. He knew her car, claims to have seen her inside the library etc..sounds as if he knew her or at least he was present at Ramona High before Cheri Jo Bates had entered the library. Otherwise how, if only being a serial killer, could he have known her name, look and which car belongs to her? To connect her as a person with her name as well as her car – as well as the fact that he know where to find her – imo requires that he had known CJB personally. Again he tries to weaken this circumstance:
MAYBE SHE WILL BE THE BEAUTIFUL BLOND THAT BABYSITS NEAR THE LITTLE STORE AND WALKS DOWN THE DARK ALLEY EACH EVENING ABOUT SEVEN.
Which little store? If Z was hanging around somewhere at Ramona High or Riverside College, which store is in that area? Where you could walk ‘down’ in an alley? Obviously he was observing this babysitter every day…but how did he know that she was babysitting at all? Could he peek through the windows?
OR MAYBE SHE WILL BE THE SHAPELY BLUE EYED BROWNETT THAT SAID NO WHEN I ASKED HER FOR A DATE IN HIGH SCHOOL.
Now we get to the point. Z (or the author) had asked her for a date in High School? We remember the ‘brush-offs’ over years, but here he actually says that he was in ‘High School’ together with CJB! I do know this is not sort of a final conclusion, but to me this sounds as if Z had gone to Ramona High, too. And later he followed her, knowing her – name, face, car, job – to Riverside College to murder her.
Actually I can find her only in the 1965 yearbook..did she change high school as she seems to be not present in the 1964? QT
I also think Z was a classmate of hers, or maybe a year or two ahead,but still knew her from school. Ask Tahoe or Tracers, I think one of them posted some yearbook pics of her someplace here, or has some of her
smithy, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:18 am
Morf, I think the idea that he’d incriminate himself in what is otherwise a very well thought-out letter isn’t perhaps a sound one. JMO.
Personally having murdered someone, I wouldn’t offer the information that I was a classmate. But then I’m smart, and I’ve never been caught. 
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:54 pm
Officer’s Foukes estimated the Zodiac suspect’s age as being between 35 to 45 years old in Oct 1969.
Ok, so let us just make it on the very low side and say Zodiac was 30 years old in 1969.
If he was 30 years old in 1969, he was born 1939.
Zodiac would then have been 27 years old in 1966 when CJB was killed
Cheri Jo Bates was born 1948, so Zodiac was probably, at least, 9 years older than CJB, probably even more, actually up to 24 years older if he was 45 years old in 1969 (then born 1924 and would have been 42 years old when he killed CJB)
So, IMO it is NOT likely that Zodiac was any kind of classmate of Cheri Jo Bates’s, neither a year or two ahead.
IF Zodiac knew CJB I would think he was som kind of teacher/guest teacher of hers or somone who knew her from some other place than school/college.
But I personaly belive CJB was a substitute victim, that Zodiac had suffered rejections from woman many times in his life prior to murdereing CJB and he therefore had build up a strong rage towards woman.
I think CJB reminded him physichally of one of those woman whom he felt had hurt him.
I also think all the other female victims of Zodiac was this kind of substitute victims.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:58 pm
The (AP) designation means that two of those stories were based on "wire" stories from Associated Press. That means they were part of a pool of news gathered together by this organisation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press – and could have been bought for reproduction world-wide, so of course it goes without saying that they were available right across California. He certainly didn’t need to be in Riverside for those. For the other one? Not sure.
Bottom line is, I was (at the time) trying to float the idea that the facts were all available without the writer having been anywhere near the crime scene at the time of Cheri’s murder. Maybe there’s another AP news article which helps indicate he didn’t even need to have been in the general area. I expect there is. (Whether we accept any conclusions about that fact or not, of course.)He went there to mail the letters, though. So even if he wasn’t local, he wanted to appear to be, I suppose.
Not something he bothered with doing in Vallejo, which is interesting.
Thanks and I know about the AP but didn’t know how it was back then. With the letters been mailed from there it is likely the writer was from Riverside but not impossible for him not to be.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:58 pm
Officer’s Foukes estimated the Zodiac suspect’s age as being between 35 to 45 years old in Oct 1969.
Ok, so let us just make it on the very low side and say Zodiac was 30 years old in 1969.
If he was 30 years old in 1969, he was born 1939.
Zodiac would then have been 27 years old in 1966 when CJB was killed
Cheri Jo Bates was born 1948, so Zodiac was probably, at least, 9 years older than CJB, probably even more, actually up to 24 years older if he was 45 years old in 1969 (then born 1924 and would have been 42 years old when he killed CJB)
So, IMO it is NOT likely that Zodiac was any kind of classmate of Cheri Jo Bates’s, neither a year or two ahead.
IF Zodiac knew CJB I would think he was som kind of teacher/guest teacher of hers or somone who knew her from some other place than school/college.
But I personaly belive CJB was a substitute victim, that Zodiac had suffered rejections from woman many times in his life prior to murdereing CJB and he therefore had build up a strong rage towards woman.
I think CJB reminded him physichally of one of those woman whom he felt had hurt him.I also think all the other female victims of Zodiac was this kind of substitute victims.
Makes a lot of sense and would love to know the name of the Janitor that found the desk top poem. Janitor’s being somewhat jacks of all trades it would seem likely he would have knowledge of automobiles as well.
Quicktrader, Subject: Let’s dig deeper… Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:14 pm
…ok, now I have a question.
I could find CJB in the 1965 yearbook..but not in the 1962 or 1963. It appears as if she had changed High School (maybe because of a stalker?), anybody got some information on that? Thx,
QT
Seagull, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:34 am
Cheri Jo graduated from high school in 1966 so she should be in the 1966, 1965 and 1964 high school yearbooks at least. Some high schools have four years, some three years. I do not know how many years Cheri Jo’s high school had at the time she went there. My high school had only three years, sophomore, junior and seniors years or 10th, 11th and 12th grades and I went to high school in the ’60’s, too. Junior high school, as it was called back then, had 7th and 8th grades and sometimes 9th grade or freshman year.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:04 am
No Freshmen at Ramona High School.
Seagull is correct. Cheri Jo was in the 1964, 1965 and 1966 yearbooks.
Quicktrader, Subject: CJB in 1964 Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:12 am
Never saw CJB in the 1964 yearbook, but it’s true..below you find some pics…and of course some guys look like the Z sketches, too 
On this pic, Bruce Dingman stands directly behind CJB
http://radaris.com/p/Bruce/Dingman/
Here we see CJB in the first row, third from the left.
CJB in row three of five, fifth from the left (light jacket)
Bruce Dingman and Tom Burdett wearing glasses on this pic.
Bruce Dingman on this pic
Another impression with Bruce Dingman and another guy matching the LB sketch quite well
CJB, here fourth in the first row, Lee Corbin with wavy dark hair wearing glasses two rows behind her
All names mentioned simply for better picture description, not necessarily connected to the case.
http://www.classmates.com/yearbooks/Ram … Term=Bates
QT
morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:51 am
You are heading down a dark road if you are looking at people just bcause they are wearing glasses. Lots of dead ends!
By the way, one of the names you mentioned above,I previously looked into,(wont say which one)NOT because he wore glasses,but because he lived in the SF bay area. In addition, he was a major chess player,heavily involved and even had a chess league or event named after him in the Riverside area. In one possible zodiac letter, the writer mentions that he has ‘friction tape,and chess boards all over california". Thats why I was originally interested in this guy. He did in fact look the sketch to boot,but I have his writing samples,and they look nothing like Zodiac’s
onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:31 pm
yes, I agree with Morf. looking for guys who wear horn rimmed eyeglasses normally might
not be a good idea. Did Mike Mageau say Zodiac was wearing eyeglasses? I believe at Lake
Berryessa they say Zodiac had clip on sun glasses ( the kind you would attach to eyeglasses)
clipped to the outside of the mask, with no eyeglasses underneath. Were the eyeglasses at Paul
Stine’s murder just a disguise? Actually it is a pretty good disguise.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:59 pm
Never saw CJB in the 1964 yearbook, but it’s true..
Here is the link to some photos from her 1964 yearbook, as well as others:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … -yearbooks
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:54 pm
Want to add I think Cheri knew her killer in some sort of fashion. I think that’s how he was able to get that close to her and she must have trusted him somewhat.
Totally agree Stitch. Not only was that how he was able to get close to her and have her trust him, but also how he knew exactly which vehicle was hers to disable.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Zodiac – identifiable? Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 am
Want to add I think Cheri knew her killer in some sort of fashion. I think that’s how he was able to get that close to her and she must have trusted him somewhat.
Totally agree Stitch. Not only was that how he was able to get close to her and have her trust him, but also how he knew exactly which vehicle was hers to disable.
Yep WC it makes sense.
*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*
