Admin, Subject: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:00 pm

Cheri Jo Bates Articles:

Admin, Subject: Clues in the Bates articles? Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:18 pm

These all ran in the local papers within days after her murder. In reviewing them again for the first time in a while, they show that there was plenty of information released by the police and press- possibly enough to give the confession letter writer enough to make the confession letter up, even if the writer didnt kill her. Its all there from the wire being cut, to the police theory of how the killer waited for her to come out.

One thing the confession writer writes is that he pulled the "middle wire". The articles don’t mention which wire was pulled. So this was either a lucky guess, or the confession writer did in fact kill her. Anyway, I thought it would be helpful to post these articles here. By the way, does anybody(especially mechanic-types) know how many wires there were to choose from in Cheri’s car?

What is interesting is the use of anniversary dates in the Bates murder (which is one reason I believe the PATRICIA HAUTZ letter may be related)

Oct. 30,1966 Cheri is killed

November 29,1966 Confession letter arrives (writer may have wanted it to arrive a day later on the 30 day anniv)

April 30,1967 Letters received by police, newspaper,and Cheri Jo’s father (the 6 month anniv of her murder)

Early October 1967 the newspaper runs the story about her (I have heard it ran on Oct. 1, but I dont know for sure)

November 1,1967 (exactly a month after the article, and very close to the one year anniversry of Cheri Jo’s murder, the Patricia Hautz letter is written.

Admin, Subject: Similar MO to Bates case Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:22 pm

This article is not about Bates, but is of a very similar case involving a wire pulled from a VW

, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:29 pm

I’ve read somewhere that on a building overlooking or nearby the Bates scene they found a set of VW keys on a rooftop. I’m pretty sure I saw this (hope to god I wasn’t in some Zodiac hallucination).

Been thinking about that and the four workmen Walter and his friends saw near to where Cheri’s car was found. What if she was being watched by (poss one of these workmen, the watch was splattered with paint) and they were his keys. Lets say he is disabling the car, if someone were to go over and speak to him then he could pull out the keys and pretend the car was his hoping that they didn’t want him to start it. Then he goes to the nearby rooftop to watch Cheri Jo come out (We have no guarantee the guy the girl saw near the library is actually the killer.) leaving the keys on the roof.

Were any of these workmen ever traced? I would presume it was a College property they may have been working on, they could have has access to other parts of the college as well. And if the keys do have some connection then poss there were fingerprints left on them if they took them into custody.

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:44 pm

I vaguely remember something about keys on a roof, but my mind is over saturated right no…in bad need of a DISC DEFRAGMENT

I had also thought of the construction going on at the time, and that her killer may have been a painter there

, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:04 am

Cheers Morph, just as long as I’m not the only one to have seen it lol, I’ll try to find it again today.

Clovis, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:25 am

One thing the confession writer writes is that he pulled the "middle wire". The articles don’t mention which wire was pulled. So this was either a lucky guess, or the confession writer did in fact kill her. Anyway, I thought it would be helpful to post these articles here. By the way, does anybody(especially mechanic-types) know how many wires there were to choose from in Cheri’s car?

The distributor would have had 5 wires attached to it. The center one which feeds the electrical charge from the ign. coil and the other 4 that go to the individual spark plugs. Only pulling the center lead would keep the car from starting at all. Pull one of the others and the car would have a bad miss, but still run. This is very common knowledge among any that have worked on cars even a little, so it wouldn’t need be a pro mechanic to know how to do this.

, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:31 am

I now that a man’s watch was found at the scene, and the newspaper articles confirm this….what brand was it; does anyone know?

Has it ever been swabbed tested for DNA or fingerprints?? Does anyone know??

Thanks!

bentley, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:45 am

Zaba, the watch was a Timex. I was in contact with the FBI a year or two ago when they were testing Jack Tarrance’s DNA and I mentioned potential DNA on the Riverside watch, as at that time non of us knew of it ever being tested. I was told in a follow up call that my tip was forwarded to the detective working the case, and I seem to recall a mention of Riverside in one of the news articles on Terrance that followed, but I don’t remember any confirmed DNA testing or result from the Riverside evidence.

, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:55 am

Thank you Bentley!

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:17 pm

Zaba, the watch was a Timex. I was in contact with the FBI a year or two ago when they were testing Jack Tarrance’s DNA and I mentioned potential DNA on the Riverside watch, as at that time non of us knew of it ever being tested. I was told in a follow up call that my tip was forwarded to the detective working the case, and I seem to recall a mention of Riverside in one of the news articles on Terrance that followed, but I don’t remember any confirmed DNA testing or result from the Riverside evidence.

Thanks Bently, very interesting!

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:31 am

With the Bates murder anniversary coming up, I am re-reading some of the Bates articles, and posting some here (my apologies if they have been posted before already).

Note- Some of these articles and pics were from the 10/30/67 News article, NOT the 10/1/67 date as mentioned by ‘Patricia Hautz’, as no 10/1/67 article existed.

, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:08 am

As a parent, I cannot imagine what her family went and is still going through…

Thank you for posting these Morf; this is a reminder of the victims who were violently taken too soon, and the fact that their family and friends will never be the same…

Drew, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:58 pm

When Zodiac called in to report the shooting of Mageau and Ferrin, he also mentioned his previous murder of Faraday and Jensen. He could also have easily mentioned the Bates murder (if he were responsible) to instill an even greater sense of fear, so I wonder why he didn’t. Seems like it would point to Zodiac reading about certain crimes and then claiming credit for them later.

bayarea60s, Subject: Drew Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:26 pm

In the Bates Murder Hand Writing experts said the letters received in the case were from Z.

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:05 am

When Zodiac called in to report the shooting of Mageau and Ferrin, he also mentioned his previous murder of Faraday and Jensen. He could also have easily mentioned the Bates murder (if he were responsible) to instill an even greater sense of fear, so I wonder why he didn’t. Seems like it would point to Zodiac reading about certain crimes and then claiming credit for them later.

My thinking is, if Z really did kill Bates, he didnt mention it because he may have had some tie to Bates, went to school with her, had a common friend, etc. Not to mention, if he admitted to a murder down in Riverside, it would be much easier for police to figure out which suspects had been down in that area around the time of her murder. Yes, I lean towards Z being involved in the Bates case (at the very least as the letter writer)and I think Z wanted to keep it quiet, but when it broke in the papers that he was connected to Bates, he embraced it.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:49 pm

A Nov. 19, 1970 San Francisco Chronicle written by Paul Avery that tells of a closed session meeting regarding Zodiac possibly having comitted Cheri Jo’s murder.

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:20 pm

Thanks so much for posting that Seagull, very informative.

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:23 pm

Another Bates article, this one mentions the "Telegraph Ave Incident" in Berkeley, that if memory serves, happened in Fall of 1968.

This is the older article about the Berkeley incident which mirrors the Bates case:

Why is there no clear descriptions or sketches of this man? And the article states that the police report may even have a plate number. Did they ever find it? Did they ever look?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:10 pm

Two articles from the Chronicle.

Lot’s of information not only about Cheri Jo’s case but also about Kathleen Johns, too.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:11 pm

Thanks for that Morf. Really interesting.

This caught my eye or my brain, or both.

‘The Police of this city of 107,000 had until then boasted often the proud fact they had never failed to solve a murder.’

Pure speculation of course but given the taunting nature of Z’s communications to the police wouldn’t this be a challenge of sorts for him to rise to? Avery states that they had ‘boasted often’ and then qualifies the statistic from their point of view as a ‘proud fact’ – this kinda got me wondering in what arena or medium were these boasts delivered. It sounds like the kind of thing that would be in tourism literature of some type or official, local government publications (annual reports etc) or maybe television ads for publicizing the city. Did the police take out newspaper ads to ‘big themselves up’?

I guess I’m wondering because if Riverside was Z and he was from there it would be interesting to see what form these police boasts took and how he could have been exposed to them, perhaps adding to his disdain of authority. My thinking is that it would be a thing local so Riverside and would point to something only a resident would be exposed to, especially if were something like local government publications. We get police annual reports here posted to residents each year. Just small A4 publications with 4 sides and if such a thing were done back then in American cities of modest size it would definitely point to a resident rather than someone passing through or just in the city working.

I’d heard, or read, the statistic mentioned before in general terms but assumed it was just known because of this case. Reading it the way Avery has put it here has, as you can see, made me wonder.

Trav

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:24 pm

Kinkead’s letter demonstrated that Riverside police had embraced the possibility that the Zodiac was responsible for the Bates murder, however, in later years, the department reversed this position and focused its attention on a suspect who had allegedly dated the victim prior to her death. Further investigation failed to produce sufficient evidence to charge this individual and the crime remained unsolved in 1982, when the department released a statement to the public that read, “In November of 1981, new information came to light which resulted in the assignment of four investigators to work full time on this case. These investigators recontacted numerous persons who were either known to the victim or were known to associate with an individual we believe responsible for this crime. Current and past known associates have been interviewed in depth. All of the physical evidence related to this crime has been re-evaluated and in some instances forensically re-examined.” The statement went on to read, “The alleged connection with the ‘Zodiac’ by certain media and inquisitive individuals was anticipated when a decision was made to release this information. The showing of very old composites and the review of previously examined cryptic writings by some of the media, have resulted in considerable interest by the rest of the media whose knowledge of the ‘Zodiac’ is based on out-dated information linking this investigation with those referred to as ‘Zodiac’ cases. Speculation and creative reporting of this kind could conceivably hamper successful prosecution. The person we believe responsible for the slaying of Cheri Jo Bates is not the individual other law enforcement authorities believe responsible for the so called ‘Zodiac’ killings. Our investigation of the Cheri Jo Bates murder continues to be as thorough as possible.” from the Blog at Zodiac Killer Facts

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:26 am

Kinkead’s letter demonstrated that Riverside police had embraced the possibility that the Zodiac was responsible for the Bates murder, however, in later years, the department reversed this position and focused its attention on a suspect who had allegedly dated the victim prior to her death. Further investigation failed to produce sufficient evidence to charge this individual and the crime remained unsolved in 1982, when the department released a statement to the public that read, “In November of 1981, new information came to light which resulted in the assignment of four investigators to work full time on this case. These investigators recontacted numerous persons who were either known to the victim or were known to associate with an individual we believe responsible for this crime. Current and past known associates have been interviewed in depth. All of the physical evidence related to this crime has been re-evaluated and in some instances forensically re-examined.” The statement went on to read, “The alleged connection with the ‘Zodiac’ by certain media and inquisitive individuals was anticipated when a decision was made to release this information. The showing of very old composites and the review of previously examined cryptic writings by some of the media, have resulted in considerable interest by the rest of the media whose knowledge of the ‘Zodiac’ is based on out-dated information linking this investigation with those referred to as ‘Zodiac’ cases. Speculation and creative reporting of this kind could conceivably hamper successful prosecution. The person we believe responsible for the slaying of Cheri Jo Bates is not the individual other law enforcement authorities believe responsible for the so called ‘Zodiac’ killings. Our investigation of the Cheri Jo Bates murder continues to be as thorough as possible.” from the Blog at Zodiac Killer Facts

Thats why their case is UNSOLVED after 40 years. They are hung up on the same suspect even know his DNA did not match the DNA found on Cheri. The yrefuse to consider the case as Zodiac, and thats a shame! They dont care about the Bates letters, they say that those were NOT written by her killer, and in their mind, could care less if they were written by Zodiac.

This is the troubesome part, there ARE people that knew Bates that were in the SF area at the time of the Z murders, some were graduating schoolmates of hers. And there WAS a writing match between the letters & desk in her case, to that of the Zodiac. For them to simply turn a blind eye to that is absurd!

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:20 pm

Thanks for that Morf. Really interesting.
Trav

Seagull found these articles not me,and they are really great articles too. Thanks for sharing Seagull

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:36 pm

Ah sorry. Was reading them in the small hours. Thanks Seagull.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:18 pm

Yes Thank you Seagull, Some of those are new to me .
Morf, I agree with you that the killer could have known Cheri Jo, I also have considered that the killer knew Cheri’s father. Being we know that her killer wore military shoes, and Cheri’s father worked at March Air force base. It is conceivable that he could have had a grudge or issue with her father , and that was the reason for the cruel note sent to Joseph Bates.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:18 pm

Posted for Sandy
RCC Tiger Times, Riverside City College.
Nov. 4, 1966
Police still lack clues in murder.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:06 am

Thanks Zam for posting for me. That Tiger Times article I picked up from one of many trips to Riverside to get information about Cheri Jo’s death. In doing so I met one of her classmates who was working at her old high school. That was when I learned who her boyfriend was. Zam has posted his picture on another thread. Oddly enough his jersey has the number 3 on it, a number I feel Z has a passion for. At the time of her murder RCC was celebrating their 50th anniversary.Z also liked anniversary’s.
Today Zam posted a few more things for me, they are on different threads pertaining to the subject.
A picture of Cheri is one that I am not sure has been seen before from Ramona High 1964.

smithy, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:19 am

An interesting article, that. It says:
"They believe the murderer tampered with her car and waited for her in one of the driveways along Terracina".
Do we presume this is the usual bad reporting?
If accurate, it would mean the Confession letter’s false, that Cheri didn’t walk off with a stranger – or a friend either, that the oily prints on the car may be Cheri’s own and why the Riverside Police seem confident it wasn’t a Z. crime.
Very interresting.
Sandy – Z may have liked anniversaries – there’s no incident or evidence that proves that, to my knowledge. (Not that it matters in any case).
A fab article! Thanks very much for posting it.

morf13, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:44 am

Doesnt make sense for the killer to wait in the alley. If he disabled her car, how could he know she would walk towards a dark alley instead of back into the library where there were people and phones? Doesnt make sense. The logical anser is that he used to ‘good samaritan’ ruse, and came along offering her help.

smithy, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:59 am

Morf – that’s true of course, if the geography of the library location and of her car, the time she came out and whether the library was still open all fit.
Do they?
Anyway, that’s not what I was wondering about…. I was wondering if this is valid reporting from a police source.
It’s probably the usual press BS – but it did give me pause for new thought, at least.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:07 pm

Doesnt make sense for the killer to wait in the alley. If he disabled her car, how could he know she would walk towards a dark alley instead of back into the library where there were people and phones? Doesnt make sense. The logical anser is that he used to ‘good samaritan’ ruse, and came along offering her help.

Makes sense to me. He parked his car in the alley…went and messed with Cheri’s car and stood in the shadows until she tried to start it…then came walking up offering help.

Just so frustrating no one saw a thing!

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:37 pm

Doesnt make sense for the killer to wait in the alley. If he disabled her car, how could he know she would walk towards a dark alley instead of back into the library where there were people and phones? Doesnt make sense. The logical anser is that he used to ‘good samaritan’ ruse, and came along offering her help.

I agree he used the ruse of helping her get her car started, then had her walk with him to where he said his car was. I doubt she went down the dark driveway between the two houses on her own. He may have at that point used a gun or knife to force her to go in that direction, after he was clear away from anyone seeing them. What is hard for me to understand is the time line, she checked the books out around 6pm but was killed after 9:30 pm. Could she have gone back home after getting the books , to write the note to her father letting him know she would be at the library ? Then returned to the library to study until the library closed at 9pm ?

The two missing people ( a male and female) the police were interested in, never showed up for the recreation of the crime scene. I seem to remember reading that her stomach contents indicated she had something to eat Pryor to her death. My mind tells me that if there was a couple who offered her help after trying to "fix" her car , went to eat and talk for a while, before returning back to Terracina. That would explain the time somewhat .

I couldn’t help but think about the note that was on the envelope that Darlelne left, Stuck , argu, testifi, not sure of all the words because they were mostly misspelled. But in the back of my mind, knowing that Darlene and Jim lived down south in 66, was this the murder she saw , the Virgin Island story was to put them as far away from that crime scene as possible ?

( Just thinking out loud)

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:16 pm

An interesting article, that. It says:
"They believe the murderer tampered with her car and waited for her in one of the driveways along Terracina".
Do we presume this is the usual bad reporting?
If accurate, it would mean the Confession letter’s false, that Cheri didn’t walk off with a stranger – or a friend either, that the oily prints on the car may be Cheri’s own and why the Riverside Police seem confident it wasn’t a Z. crime.
Very interresting.
Sandy – Z may have liked anniversaries – there’s no incident or evidence that proves that, to my knowledge. (Not that it matters in any case).
A fab article! Thanks very much for posting it.

You are welcome Smithy, Here are some of my examples:
Dec. 20th 1969 Z letter, was the one yr anniversary date of Betty Lou and David’s murder. If he was the killer of Antonette Anstey on March 13th 1970 , the z wrote another letter on the one yr anniversary of her death .
On Oct 11th 1980 Rick Stowers and Cindy Moreland were killed on that Holiday weekend and it just happened to be an anniversary date of Paul Stine. I know that their murder was thrown in to the basket with all of the Trail side murders, but that is one couple that I do believe were victims of the Zodiac and not David Carpenter. Carpenter was a rapist killer, so when ever I find a female who was not raped , or especially a couple who were not raped or robbed, I feel very strongly that they could be Victims of the Zodiac. But that is what I feel and may not be a fact, I just put it out there for anyone to ponder.

Jem, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:12 am

Sandy wrote:

I agree he used the ruse of helping her get her car started, then had her walk with him to where he said his car was. I doubt she went down the dark driveway between the two houses on her own. He may have at that point used a gun or knife to force her to go in that direction, after he was clear away from anyone seeing them. What is hard for me to understand is the time line, she checked the books out around 6pm but was killed after 9:30 pm. Could she have gone back home after getting the books , to write the note to her father letting him know she would be at the library ? Then returned to the library to study until the library closed at 9pm ?

The two missing people ( a male and female) the police were interested in, never showed up for the recreation of the crime scene. I seem to remember reading that her stomach contents indicated she had something to eat Pryor to her death. My mind tells me that if there was a couple who offered her help after trying to "fix" her car , went to eat and talk for a while, before returning back to Terracina. That would explain the time somewhat .

Yes, the timeline is interesting. My question is – how did Cheri’s killer know that she would leave the library when it closed (supposing she did)? I think he would not have tried to abduct her if she had left before the library closed, when there were people in the area.

So I would guess that either –
1) She typically left the library at closing and her killer knew her habits – In this case there’s the problem of why no one saw Cheri in the library. However, there were only 33 people in the library between 6PM and 9PM, and of these, we only know of a few guys who said they knew her. Considering she was worried about her missing papers, it seems quite possible to me that Cheri saw the boys, but wasn’t in the mood for chatting, so she purposely avoided them. As for the 4 oz. of food in her stomach, she may have taken some of the pot roast to the library for a snack. Or maybe not. There are various reasons why food might digest slower than usual. Being sick with a cold, being physically cold, anxiety. Also, we don’t know how much Cheri ate at home before she left. I believe that eating too much can cause your stomach to take longer to begin the process of digestion. Cheri’s dad said that she was concerned about her weight. If she had skipped a day of eating, her stomach would have contracted so that eating a normal amount could have caused bloating and slowed digestion.

2) Cheri left the library, maybe to search around some more for her bibliography, and then returned to the library not long before 9PM. This explains the food in her stomach, but again we have the problem of no one seeing her. But maybe she went home and no one noticed her car there. This scenario makes more sense to me because it explains how the killer could be reasonably certain that he would have the opportunity to commit his crime when no one was around, without having to hold her at gunpoint in the alley during a time when people might be walking there.

Too long; don’t read
I wonder how Cheri’s killer could be reasonably sure that Cheri would stay in the library until closing.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:28 pm

Too long; don’t read
I wonder how Cheri’s killer could be reasonably sure that Cheri would stay in the library until closing.

Waiting until closing is sketchy too. How would her killer know a bunch of people wouldn’t be walking out with her at the same time?

I think he quickly messed with her car and stood in the shadows and watched.

When she came out and couldn’t start her car, he made sure no one was outside watching…or with her He had to have spent a minute or two pretending to help her. At that point he would have just been a good samaritan.

BUT, he did try to make sure he did this at a time no one saw him. It worked.

smithy, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:35 pm

I’ll go along with that.

Do we think he went there with the attention of killing her btw? That he was confident that he wouldn’t be seen helping her, walking with her or attacking her? Was he confident that she’d go with him? Did he really think it all through, do we believe, as the Confession letter implies?
Eh?

soccer, Subject: Re: Cheri Jo Bates Articles Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:35 pm

From what I have read this was a auxillary parking lot and must have been a very dimly lit one too judging by the famous photo with the new light installed. Is it just me or does that photo it give you the creeps too. Sure miss hot coed just park in the dark & shadowed gravel lot by the abandund houses and bushes. Any one know how many cars were there at closing and in relation to Cheri’s. Maybe most used a safer parking spot . she was a very hot looking girl ,alot of the time they try to leave away from others , girls and guys. Were there a lot of night couses in 66 ? Also this was a sunday probably not a big day at the school.