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(@margie)
Posts: 207
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Thank you Richard!

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 4:38 am
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
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Topic starter
 

So, I think we can conclude that Zodiac invented the "Negro male" to either confuse police on the color of his car or deceive them on how close he lived to the phone booth. Or both.

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 4:51 pm
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
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Well, it’s by no means certain, but it’s an extremely reasonable and viable conclusion. After shooting both Mageau and Ferrin the Zodiac Killer was fairly confident he had murdered two people. Does he then drive randomly around Vallejo, or nearby, for no reason whatsoever, before thinking "hey, I think I’ll make a phone call to police"? Does he decide to get in a quick frame of ten-pin bowling, or visit Mr Ed’s and chomp a burger and fries? Does he park up somewhere and do nothing for an extra 30 minutes? The idea he travelled home and likely changed his bloody short-sleeved blue shirt and then walked (or drove) to the payphone is a more reasonable conclusion. The statement of "The man who told police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was in this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cop when he was walking by. When I hung the phone up the damn X@ thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car" is possibly telling. The Zodiac appeared to be over-descriptive regarding the eyewitness, as if to add authenticity to his claim – and was extremely helpful in corroborating the colour of his vehicle to police. Not to mention purposefully adding "+ my car" to a sentence that didn’t require this addition. To me, this whole paragraph of text is a selling job, from an individual who wants us to assume he is still in tandem with his vehicle.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 6:27 pm
(@cragle)
Posts: 767
Prominent Member
 

Well, it’s by no means certain, but it’s an extremely reasonable and viable conclusion. After shooting both Mageau and Ferrin the Zodiac Killer was fairly confident he had murdered two people. Does he then drive randomly around Vallejo, or nearby, for no reason whatsoever, before thinking "hey, I think I’ll make a phone call to police"? Does he decide to get in a quick frame of ten-pin bowling, or visit Mr Ed’s and chomp a burger and fries? Does he park up somewhere and do nothing for an extra 30 minutes? The idea he travelled home and likely changed his bloody short-sleeved blue shirt and then walked (or drove) to the payphone is a more reasonable conclusion. The statement of "The man who told police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was in this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cop when he was walking by. When I hung the phone up the damn X@ thing began to ring & that drew his attention to me + my car" is possibly telling. The Zodiac appeared to be over-descriptive regarding the eyewitness, as if to add authenticity to his claim – and was extremely helpful in corroborating the colour of his vehicle to police. Not to mention purposefully adding "+ my car" to a sentence that didn’t require this addition. To me, this whole paragraph of text is a selling job, from an individual who wants us to assume he is still in tandem with his vehicle.

By extension of this you would also have to think that he would not have walked far to the phone booth, I just can’t see him taking the risk of being stopped whilst walking to the phone booth or away from it ?

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 6:57 pm
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
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I suspect as close as 5-10 minutes. But if he had changed clothes, hidden the gun and washed his hands at home, there would be little risk to him venturing out as a pedestrian with the July 4th celebrations likely increasing the foot traffic that morning.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 7:19 pm
(@cragle)
Posts: 767
Prominent Member
 

I suspect as close as 5-10 minutes. But if he had changed clothes, hidden the gun and washed his hands at home, there would be little risk to him venturing out as a pedestrian with the July 4th celebrations likely increasing the foot traffic that morning.

Can’t argue with your logic Richard. Also possible that he lived East of the booth as both attacks happened in that direction and MM stated that he was heading towards Springs and not going north on Columbus?

This is roughly a 10 Minute Walking radius from the Phone Booth with the streets which not present at the time removed.

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 7:36 pm
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

That leaves a manageable area to search for suspects that fit the general description. After all, somebody had to cut his hair between September 27th and October 11th, probably locally. Passing that description from Napa or Presidio Heights to barbers, as well as local businesses and shops local to that payphone, may have jogged somebodies memory. We know that Mageau was shot in the back seat by an assailant leaning into the vehicle wearing a shirt, because two casings were found on the back floorboard (and we know by the bullet slag diagram in the BRS report, that the casings predominantly ejected to the shooter’s left rear). So the killer likely leaned right over the front passenger seat to take aim, thereby making it virtually impossible for him not to have come into contact with the uphostelry. It’s extremely likely blood transferred from car seat to shirt, necessitating the killer to go home and change his clothes before the payphone call. Would you risk hanging about with blood on your clothes for 40 minutes, even if you had a jacket to cover it over?

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 9:38 pm
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
Moderator Admin
Topic starter
 

Not sure about the walking/distance part. Zodiac had no problem walking quite a ways after the Stine shooting.

I’ve always wondered if the directions in the call could be a clue to his home:

"If you will go one mile east to Columbus Parkway you will find kids in a brown car…"

Most assume he means 1 mile east from the police station. We usually base our directions and distance on familiar landmarks. But what if he means 1 mile east from his own home?

1 mile west from Columbus Parkway would still put him within walking distance of the phone booth.

I have nothing definitive to prove this. It’s just a thought.

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 10:12 pm
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

The Zodiac Killer by instructing police to go one mile east to Columbus Parkway, may have given away the Zodiac Killer’s intrinsic knowledge of that area. The presumed notion of Zodiac, would have police exiting Vallejo Police Station and heading to Columbus Parkway via the quickest main route. That is onto Solano Avenue heading northeast, before joining Springs Road and heading east. The journey along Springs Road to Columbus Parkway directly east, is approximately 1.39 miles. The Zodiac Killer, not only knew the location of Vallejo Police Department, but knew they would be travelling 1.39 miles east on the Springs Road he was in close proximity to. He just rounded it off to "one mile east". This isn’t proof he lived in the vicinity of the payphone, but is just another observation backing up the language used in the August 4th letter. His home and knowledge of his surroundings may have influenced both.

@38.1011325,-122.2350546,1880m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m19!4m18!1m10!1m1!1s0x808572965a4660cd:0x8ad17a1c21434740!2m2!1d-122.1897519!2d38.1255205!3m4!1m2!1d-122.2067919!2d38.1059282!3s0x808572f7a65cf005:0x912f0967fe100c75!1m5!1m1!1s0x80857372d98fe32f:0xa3d9d93ce8d77dba!2m2!1d-122.2435391!2d38.0998633!3e0?hl=en”> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Blue+ … !3e0?hl=en

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : October 6, 2020 10:37 pm
 CZ85
(@cz85)
Posts: 51
Trusted Member
 

Richard, I agree, but it could also be used for Zodiac to “corroborate” witness statements about his car’s color when, in fact, it was another color. He would be happy to have cops looking for a brown car while he was driving around in something else.

This is what makes most sense to me.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 5:20 am
 CZ85
(@cz85)
Posts: 51
Trusted Member
 

That leaves a manageable area to search for suspects that fit the general description. After all, somebody had to cut his hair between September 27th and October 11th, probably locally. Passing that description from Napa or Presidio Heights to barbers, as well as local businesses and shops local to that payphone, may have jogged somebodies memory. We know that Mageau was shot in the back seat by an assailant leaning into the vehicle wearing a shirt, because two casings were found on the back floorboard (and we know by the bullet slag diagram in the BRS report, that the casings predominantly ejected to the shooter’s left rear). So the killer likely leaned right over the front passenger seat to take aim, thereby making it virtually impossible for him not to have come into contact with the uphostelry. It’s extremely likely blood transferred from car seat to shirt, necessitating the killer to go home and change his clothes before the payphone call. Would you risk hanging about with blood on your clothes for 40 minutes, even if you had a jacket to cover it over?

It’s a rare pistol that ejects on the left side of the gun.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 5:28 am
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
Noble Member
 

"If you will go one mile east to Columbus Parkway you will find kids in a brown car…"

.

He said "on Columbus Parkway", not "to". He meant one mile east after you get on Columbus. If you go one mile or whatever east to Columbus Parkway you get to the intersection of Spring and Columbus, not BRS.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 6:24 am
(@monarch)
Posts: 433
Reputable Member
 

That leaves a manageable area to search for suspects that fit the general description. After all, somebody had to cut his hair between September 27th and October 11th, probably locally. Passing that description from Napa or Presidio Heights to barbers, as well as local businesses and shops local to that payphone, may have jogged somebodies memory. We know that Mageau was shot in the back seat by an assailant leaning into the vehicle wearing a shirt, because two casings were found on the back floorboard (and we know by the bullet slag diagram in the BRS report, that the casings predominantly ejected to the shooter’s left rear). So the killer likely leaned right over the front passenger seat to take aim, thereby making it virtually impossible for him not to have come into contact with the uphostelry. It’s extremely likely blood transferred from car seat to shirt, necessitating the killer to go home and change his clothes before the payphone call. Would you risk hanging about with blood on your clothes for 40 minutes, even if you had a jacket to cover it over?

It’s a rare pistol that ejects on the left side of the gun.

Yes, it certainly is. The only 9mm handgun I can think of that ejects to the left is the WW2 German P38.
In the 1960s a lot of war surplus P38s were being sold via mail order at very low cost.

Zodiac wrote in one of his letters that he acquired his guns via mail order so I would think there is a very
good chance Z used a P38 at BRS.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 11:08 am
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

"If you will go one mile east to Columbus Parkway you will find kids in a brown car…"

.

He said "on Columbus Parkway", not "to". He meant one mile east after you get on Columbus. If you go one mile or whatever east to Columbus Parkway you get to the intersection of Spring and Columbus, not BRS.

Nobody knows exactly what he said. Many make the assumption Zodiac was incorrect in his directions, while automatically assuming that the message was transcribed and written down correctly. If Zodiac was ringing Vallejo Police Station, then his directions were obviously aimed at them in directing them to Blue Rock Springs. In other words, a blind assumption is made that Zodiac was incorrect, while assuming that Nancy Slover recalled everything perfectly and the message was written down in the correct context using correct punctuation.

Put a full stop between "east" and "on". If you were calling the police at 12:40 am on July 5th 1969, issuing them with directions to Blue Rock Springs, then your first statement would be to tell them to go east, which is exactly what the Zodiac Killer did. Then take Columbus Parkway to the crime scene. Police dispatcher Nancy Slover was certainly not prepared for the call she was about to receive, crucially interrupting the caller and asking him for his details as he began his message. In other words, she spoke over the killer while simultaneously having to register what he was saying. She may have been a trained police dispatcher, but little prepares you for a serial killer ringing in, claiming the murder of four people in total. She often recalled how unnerving the phone call was. In the aftermath of the call, she then had to remember its totality, word for word, along with the exact sequence of the message and any pauses or sentence breaks within it, so as to fully transcribe the message delivered in its correct context.

The message in the BRS call was composed of 46 words, delivered in approximately 20 seconds. The chances of recalling this amount of words in exactly the correct order and context, one could suggest is extremely unlikely and unrealistic. There is often the false assumption that the Zodiac Killer was incorrect in his delivery of the message, whereas, it is a far more credible proposition that Nancy Slover simply recalled the message incorrectly or in the wrong context. We have previously shown that by inserting one break into the message it reads perfectly from a directional standpoint. Here is the message with the break or pause inserted "I want to report a double murder. If you will go one mile east…… on Columbus Parkway to the public park, you will find the kids in a brown car. They were shot with a 9 mm Luger. I also killed those kids last year…. Good-bye". This message now makes sense regarding a killer directing police from 111 Armador Street to Blue Rock Springs Park.

Imagine this scenario: Where the three teenagers are at the corner of Washington and Cherry Streets – and assume they had a direct hotline to Officer Armond Pelissetti one mile west on Washington Street. They are viewing Zodiac heading up Cherry Street, so they call Officer Pelissetti and state "If you go one mile east, on Cherry Street you will see Zodiac." In the second instance they call Officer Pelissetti and state "If you go one mile east on Cherry Street you will see Zodiac." Both statements are composed of the same words, but mean two different things entirely. The only difference is intonation or the use of a slight pause or break, making the first statement correct, while the other giving the impression of directional unawareness.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 12:12 pm
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
Noble Member
 

"If you will go one mile east to Columbus Parkway you will find kids in a brown car…"

.

He said "on Columbus Parkway", not "to". He meant one mile east after you get on Columbus. If you go one mile or whatever east to Columbus Parkway you get to the intersection of Spring and Columbus, not BRS.

Nobody knows exactly what he said. Many make the assumption Zodiac was incorrect in his directions, while automatically assuming that the message was transcribed and written down correctly.

Quite correct Richard, I have doubt about other things he might have said, like "with a 9mm Lugar" or "with 9mm Lugar", so I would never say "you’re wrong and I’m right", because what you say could well be the way it is. All I can do is offer my own opinion which is quite different.

It always made more sense to me that he said "on Columbus Parkway" and that he was directing them from the way he came to BRS, from the north. As I noted , travelling Spring street "one mile east to Columbus" only gets you to Columbus Parkway, you’re still a distance from BRS.

However, if you enter Columbus Parkway at the north end, you travel due east and best I can figure by scaling it’s about a mile and a half or so to BRS that direction. I think it’s just as possible that is the route he took to BRS originally, and that is how he knew to get there. I don’t think he was a local, since he referred to BRS as "the public park" instead of BRS as a local most likely would. He knew the area well enough to find his way around, but not well enough to remember the name of BRS or to give directions to get there other than how he knew to find it.

But like I said, you might be right, this is just my interpretation of the events.

 
Posted : October 7, 2020 10:57 pm
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