Seagull – yes it is. You read my post?
Several shots may have injured them both, yes. Even though we know he "jumped over" into the back seat at some point.
But how many do there have to be to get the numbers to match? It’s odd.
Here’s a report page saying that seven casings were recovered, not nine, which would make the problem bigger, and even more odd. Odder.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR6.html
Oh well.

Edited for spelling. Doh!

MM claims here that he was shot 5 times and 1 of those passed through him and into Darlene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … ys#t=1633s

I’m telling you now I’m not doing maths. Just adding more things into the mix. So don’t get mad for this next suggestion – could a shell casing have remained in the weapon and had to be ejected manually by Z in his own vehicle so that he could reload, if that is indeed why he went back to his car? Would that help with any discrepancies?

Would Z have picked some up and taken them away just to add confusion?

Sorry Smithy but I didn’t get time to boughten in my thinking head through mail order before the ban went into effect.

MM claims here that he was shot 5 times and 1 of those passed through him and into Darlene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p … ys#t=1633s

Ah yes, I appreciate your posting the link Trav – even though it makes things worse! Ha! And yes, at about 27:55 I think he starts.

When Mike talks about being shot five times but describes six wounds it’s a head scratcher, but….
He was shot very close-in, so did he suffer through-and-through wounds which hit him in both arm and leg? Is he talking entry and exit wounds, when he describes those six wounds in his dialogue? Who knows. Whatever the case is it just ain’t fun, poor fellow.

If we take him at his (initial) word – least shots fired – that’s five, add eight hits for Darlene, that’s thirteen. It still don’t add up too well.

I’m telling you now I’m not doing maths. Just adding more things into the mix. So don’t get mad for this next suggestion – could a shell casing have remained in the weapon and had to be ejected manually by Z in his own vehicle so that he could reload, if that is indeed why he went back to his car? Would that help with any discrepancies?

"Get mad" Trav? Stick pins in the Voodoo doll you mean? Me?
If a shot fired but a shell didn’t eject, that would take one off the total if he ejected it and kept it, yes, and the idea of a stoppage is OK, or walking off reloading and then hearing Mike make a noise, putting in another "clip", all that, yes, why not? Neither helps reduce the number of shell cases discrepancy unless yes, he was taking the time to pick up casings. Some that is, not all.
Have you shot? The casings go everywhere, damn things.
But there’s no real indication – or time – to suggest he did pick up casings. And if he did, why leave seven? Hmmm.

Let’s see, There are many possible scenarios, let’s face it! I’ve got:

1) He picked up some shells, not all of them.
2) He picked up from his car – or pulled – a revolver he had as back-up. With the revolver he fires six shots – it doesn’t eject shells.
3) Police reports in the public domain don’t reflect the correct number of shells.
4) There was more than one assailant. One had an auto, one had a .38 revolver.

I’m presuming he had more than one weapon, at the moment. But that brings up more questions, of course.

You’re very kind to take the time to reply Smithy. I will have a think about this some more but I just wanted to stick my head round the door so to speak in regard this one and get my initial nonsense thoughts out of the way as well as any other stuff floating around – ie MM’s statements.

TBH with what I’ve read in everyone’s posts we’ve probably already answered it. It’s just not a nice clean answer and part of it may require the "Nobody Knows Card" ala QI.

Trav – your input always gratefully received, in haste or not!
Does answering the number of shots v’s the number of shells conclude things?
I hope not!

We’ve identified there’s a difference between the shots fired and the shells collected, and it’s an appreciable one.
I’m hoping we can go on to discuss what that might mean, looking at those four points I just mentioned (and perhaps to come up with some more) for instance.
And then seeing how those points might mean to the case as a whole.

Such as, how do the facts relate to:

"1 girl was wearing paterned slacks 2 The boy was also shot in the knee. 3 Brand name of ammo was western"
"I did not open the car door, The window was rolled down all ready. The boy was origionaly sitting in the front seat when I began fireing. When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time thus spoiling my aim. He ended up on the back seat then the floor in back thashing out very violently with his legs; thats how I shot him in the knee."

Edited: ‘Cos I can’t spell "shells". Doh!

Please tell me what kind of handgun was used in the Blue Rock Springs attack, what might have been used and would ballistics be able to be performed still?
Can you please post images as I am ignorant of gun "numbers" and makes,etc. It would easier for me if you illustrate.

Please tell me what kind of handgun was used in the Blue Rock Springs attack, what might have been used and would ballistics be able to be performed still?
Can you please post images as I am ignorant of gun "numbers" and makes,etc. It would easier for me if you illustrate.

In theory, yes, ballistics could still be performed. But for that, as you no doubt will know, you’d have to have the actual gun used by Zodiac in the BRS attack, along with one of the bullets that was fired at Mike and/or Dee for a comparison to be carried out. If I was a betting man, I’d put my money on Zodiac destroying the gun used in each attack straight after he had used it. He’d no doubt be aware of ballistic testing himself, which is probably why a different firearm was used in each of his attacks that he shot the victims.

It’s not unheard of for serial offenders to use several firearms to murder several victims, but in the cases that I have seen where this has happened, the offenders say, after capture, that they used different guns so that police would not link the crimes. I suppose their reasoning being, once LE have evidence that a serial killer is active, they will use far more resources available to them than they would if say 3 murders were thought to be 3 separate crimes by 3 different offenders.

Zodiac wasn’t using different guns in hopes that LE would fail to connect the crimes as the work of one man, on the contrary, Citizen Z demanded that he get the recognition each time he did his thing!

Forgive me, I’m rusty on this stuff now, but there’s a ballistics report out there somewhere – IT IS SAID, about BRS.
(One of the places it’s referred to is in the book "Hunter Among the Stars" by J R Jordan. It may even really exist. I’ve never seen it.)

Said report describes the automatic used at BRS as the same type of weapon used in the murder of Paul Stine, IT IS SAID.
Although it was not the same weapon.
The DOJ information implies that this is true. It was (another) Browning, as I recall.

BTW – the idea that the Zodiac Killer intentionally used different weapons and disposed of each of them is the only sensible way, given the differing MO’s and assailant descriptions, to continue to believe the crimes are linked, ain’t it? Oh, and the letters!
But the letter seems to be wrong about the number of shots fired.

Thou shall not covet…serial killers covet, keep momentos and return to the crime scene and hang out over and over.
Ted Bundy returned to the burial sites of his victims. This is in fact, one way Law Enforcement could catch these criminals.
Odds are Zodiac returned over and over to the scenes of these crimes. My suspect took me the Lake Berryessa site over and
over. He coveted his guns and his vehicles. So it sounds like it was a Browning(?) can someone post pictures?

Forgive me, I’m rusty on this stuff now, but there’s a ballistics report out there somewhere – IT IS SAID, about BRS.
(One of the places it’s referred to is in the book "Hunter Among the Stars" by J R Jordan. It may even really exist. I’ve never seen it.)

Said report describes the automatic used at BRS as the same type of weapon used in the murder of Paul Stine, IT IS SAID.
Although it was not the same weapon.
The DOJ information implies that this is true. It was (another) Browning, as I recall.

BTW – the idea that the Zodiac Killer intentionally used different weapons and disposed of each of them is the only sensible way, given the differing MO’s and assailant descriptions, to continue to believe the crimes are linked, ain’t it? Oh, and the letters!
But the letter seems to be wrong about the number of shots fired.

Well that’s it, this is the logic of Zodiac it seems. Make every effort to eliminate a pattern or a link between any of his crimes and then write to the Chronicle to confess everything and tell them he’s the murderer of the cabbie ‘Over By Washingtin & Maple Streets last night." Our Fare dodging friend wants us to believe he has no idea what that street was called over by Maple, obviously he isn’t familiar with that area at all, that must be it!

But no in all fairness Smithy, I think there is more than good grounds to suggest that Zodiac of Lake B notoriety, and that of his Pacific Heights Colleague with the Shuffling Lope, may not be one and the same. Again, ‘Zodiac’ seemed over eager to send off his confession along with evidentiary proof and did so knowing he had been seen by several witnesses that night, who, had he kept his mouth shut, would never have known or even suspected that Zodiac, along with his new shuffling gait, was responsible. It wouldn’t make sense to confess "It was me, the elusive and crack prrof ‘Zodiac’ killer" if that really was ‘THE’ Zodiac on Jackson Street. If it was ‘A’ Zodiac killer though, then why not fess up? Throw a bit more confusion into an already vastly complicated case and the circumstances. Why not, see if the blue meanies can work out how he seeming owns a full, overhanging fringe in late September, and has a receding hairline and crew cut in early October.

"I shall not tell you what my disguise consists of when I kill…." No need Z, it’s the perfect disguise one can use, called a different person! Yay…..Nay?

Please gang,show me some handguns like the one responsible for killing Dee. An automatic with a clip? 9mm Luger means gun make or
ammo size?

Please gang,show me some handguns like the one responsible for killing Dee. An automatic with a clip? 9mm Luger means gun make or
ammo size?

Why do I have a feeling whatever we show, Peter will have owned it?

Please gang,show me some handguns like the one responsible for killing Dee. An automatic with a clip? 9mm Luger means gun make or
ammo size?

9mm is the round size that gets fired. Luger is the make of gun.
Here is a round similar to one that killed Dee-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … SB_-_1.jpg

Here is one version of the gun, the most famous version used by German soldiers in WW2-
http://www.bsu.edu/wipb/echoesofwar/ima … /full7.jpg

If you believe that follow-up telephone call was genuine then yes, it mentions a Luger, but the ammunition could have been used in just about any 9 millimetre and the (only?) "real" "ballistics" information in the public domain (?) about the type of weapon says that it was a Browning.

Google "Browning Hi Power" or "Browning 9mm pistol" – 1WK.

Thanks Tahoe, Peter owned several weapons, as did his father. And if there was a weapon available, used in the commission of these crimes,
wouldn’t you want to know? I understand that the weapon used at LHR was prepped in some way to minimize the effect on the bullets,
thus making it nearly impossible to identify that murder weapon. If no one is sure what weapon was used at BRS, how do we know it is
not the same 9 mm used on Paul Stine? A Luger can be a gun or the ammo type then?