We know of a gang of cement heads who drove around Vallejo shooting people, and two of their "friends", who knew a LOT more than Zodiac did about LHR, said they were in the second car that James Owen saw there. They said they saw one of said cement heads get out of the car they were in and shoot Betty Lou and David.

Pardon my ignorance, Bill – but where does this come from? Is it in the FBI material?

I’m not being snarky or anything – it’s a genuine question. I’ve read a similar story, I think – but no source to back it up was listed or linked to. And as such it just struck me as a tall tale at the time. There are plenty of those going around – which makes it all the more difficult to follow this case.

We know of a gang of cement heads who drove around Vallejo shooting people, and two of their "friends", who knew a LOT more than Zodiac did about LHR, said they were in the second car that James Owen saw there. They said they saw one of said cement heads get out of the car they were in and shoot Betty Lou and David.

Pardon my ignorance, Bill – but where does this come from? Is it in the FBI material?

I’m not being snarky or anything – it’s a genuine question. I’ve read a similar story, I think – but no source to back it up was listed or linked to. And as such it just struck me as a tall tale at the time. There are plenty of those going around – which makes it all the more difficult to follow this case.

I will try and find it Norse if BillR. doesn’t beat me to the punch. It is a true story, although I seem to remember it ended up they/he/whoever could not have been responsible. I’m not sure. Surely Bill will fill us in.

I think they were the ones responsible for a gas station killing and were actually in jail (or at least one of them), but honestly…I could be mixing up thugs.

Morf:

I’m not quite following your logic, here. You’re saying that Mr Owens "admitted" to hearing what MIGHT have been a gunshot because he’s GUILTY, and that was his way of covering up? What about the kid who was "adjusting his girlfriend’s motor" who, AFTER he read about Lundblad’s ridiculous "theories" about the shooting in the newspaper, "remembered" that the guy who stopped to help was actually creepy and weird. AFTER his "memory" had been influenced by the newspapers.

Does that make HIM guilty?

George Bryant thought he heard kids setting off firecrackers in the parking lot of BRS. (He did.) He didn’t call the cops, because he didn’t think they were gunshots. AFTER cops told him someone was shot that night, he said, "Oh, yeah. I might have heard some gunshots, too." Does that make HIM guilty?

I just don’t see one single solitary reason to seriously consider James Owens a "suspect." We know of a gang of cement heads who drove around Vallejo shooting people, and two of their "friends", who knew a LOT more than Zodiac did about LHR, said they were in the second car that James Owen saw there. They said they saw one of said cement heads get out of the car they were in and shoot Betty Lou and David. But, that guy can’t possibly be a suspect, according to all the Zodiac experts. We know a witness, James Owen, whose statement seems to confirm what the two cement heads told police, that another car parked next to the Rambler seconds before the shooting started, and the empty shell casings confirm that said shooter got out of the passenger side of the second car. Just like the cement heads told Cunningham he did. But the WITNESS is a viable suspect?

The guy we know shot people in Vallejo and who was fingered by his friends for this shooting CAN’T be a suspect, but the witness who confirms that theory CAN be?

I don’t get it. You’ve lost me completely.

James Owen was at the scene of the Lake Herman Shooting within a minute or two, and possibly early as 30 seconds, from when the shooting started. Do you agree with that? Well, the simple answer is, YES, that’s correct Bill.

He went on to give conflicting statements to police, for one reason or another, they are glaringly conflicting.

FACT: Owen states on 12/24 that he heard a shot a quarter mile past the scene of the crime. 3 Days earlier, 9 hours after the murders, he is standing at the scene of the crime giving his 1st statement to police, and never mentions hearing a shot. WHY? How does he leave out such a crucial piece of info at the murder scene, 9 hrs after the murders, but remembers that little detail 3 days later? Owen should have not left out this crucial detail. Come on, he is a detailed oriented person, or should be since he is a supervisor at Humble Oil, and was just out of the military, in both cases, I am sure details and reports are common.

FACT: on 12/21, Owen’s statement says that the Zodiac’s car was parked "about 10 feet apart" from Faraday’s. Yet, on 12/24, in his second statement, he states the cars are now parked 3-4 feet apart.
Which is it, 3 or 4 feet apart, or 10?????? The difference in the distances may have clashed with the crime scene evidence, shell casings, etc.

Owen is the ONLY person, known to be at the scene of the crime between the Victims being last seen alive, and being found dead. That’s a span of 6 minutes, although I think it’s quite possibly shorter. Any person known to be there during that time, should have been ruled out properly. That was not done with Owen. Did they print him? Nope. Did they take his writing samples? Nope. When they finally realized that a rifle wasn’t used in the crimes, and a handgun was, did they go back and ask Owen to test any handguns he owned? Nope. Did they catch the discrepancies in his statements like I did? Nope.

All I am saying is that Owen, as the only person confirmed to be at the scene of the crime during the small window of opportunity, should have been properly ruled out, and that was NOT done. It should have been.

We know of a gang of cement heads who drove around Vallejo shooting people, and two of their "friends", who knew a LOT more than Zodiac did about LHR, said they were in the second car that James Owen saw there. They said they saw one of said cement heads get out of the car they were in and shoot Betty Lou and David.

Pardon my ignorance, Bill – but where does this come from? Is it in the FBI material?

I’m not being snarky or anything – it’s a genuine question. I’ve read a similar story, I think – but no source to back it up was listed or linked to. And as such it just struck me as a tall tale at the time. There are plenty of those going around – which makes it all the more difficult to follow this case.

This sounds to me like, the theory is, "hey, these Guys shot somebody that night, maybe they also shot Dave & Betty"…..only problem is, ‘Bill’ has nothing to back this theory up.

Here is a link I created for this site in regards to "Terry Cunningham’s" report:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1790&p=21446#p21446

Hopefully any discussion of these guys can be continued there.

Some details from the Jensen/Faraday police report:

Mrs. Peggie ….:
Mrs. … stated they did have a gun with them that night, it was a .38 special with a small barrel and it was lying in the rear seat of the car. It was unloaded and Mr. … had the shells in his pocket. (…).’

Her husband Homer:
Mr. … states he had a .38 special on the rear seat of the car, it was unloaded. Mr. … had the shells in his pocket. Mr. … showed RO the guns he had. #1 .38 special 2” Smith & Wesson serial 55246, #2 12 gauge (!) automatic (!) shot gun (Remington) serial 248011′.

‘

Any connection been made with the .38 caliber bullet hole in Faraday’s roof mentioned in this article from the Misc. LHR articles thread?
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … =202&p=450

It makes me wonder what became of this find (.38 hole in roof) alleged by the newspaper to have been there?
And in looking at the police report, why the rangemaster, Deputy George Parks, did not clear this weapon, which was
just admitted as being present at the CS that night.
I don’t see a date of that article however the wording seems to suggest that it was published within the following week.
Despite this being hot in the mix of mayhem that must have spun from that crazy night at the time, I would think
this would be too obvious to overlook, and not let go unchecked.
Or am I missing something?

Weren’t they – simply – mistaken? I seem to recall that. There was no .38 bullet – it was a .22 that got mangled in a way which made it looks like a .38. Or something along those lines. Can’t remember the details – but it has been discussed before, it’s in a thread here somewhere.

No links, as this is just from my own rather messy notes (but it should be easy to find the relevant article):

There was a piece in the Vallejo TH, Dec 24th 1968, in which Lundblad was quoted as saying that there was only one gun used in the attack. What first appeared to be a .38 bullet was in fact a smaller caliber, like the others that were found.

FWIW

I have now found a thread which does indeed discuss that.
From some other old archived board, perhaps …
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/dfablj/953.html

However, that only seems to question how the original claim could be made.

"According to the Vallejo Times-Herald, the bullet was later determined to have been a .22 that had been severely deformed."

Jeez, I must be in the wrong line of work… A typical .38 special bullet weighs 158 grains, almost 4 times the amount of the average .22LR bullet, which weighs 40 grains. I don’t care how distorted the recovered slug was, the weight difference between the two types of bullets should have been enough proof that it wasn’t a .38 caliber bullet.

Hold off a bit on the deformation thing. I was sure that was what the article had stated, but I dug it up and the reference isn’t there. They may have simply jumped to an incorrect conclusion based on the size of the hole it made in the roof, then backed up after digging the bullet out of the upholstery.

"…perhaps is was not an intact slug that was recovered, only a fragment…"

I’d contemplated that also, but the ammo was copper jacketed, which is specifically designed to penetrate without fragmenting. That is not to say that it never happens, but then why would a fragment of a bullet that was originally 40 grains be characterized as an even larger caliber?

If a .38 was even hinted at being involved, and one of the key timeline witnesses had one present at the CS that night,
why would you not pursue that lead and have it cleared of suspicion?

I’m not saying The Yours killed Betty Lou & David however I do find the account of their presence there
as detailed in the police report as raising more questions than answers.
The first being the necessity to be there at all.
They have returned from Sacramento (45-60 min drive), departing from there around 10-10.15 pm, so into the latter portion of the evening.
In the back seat are their kids, and the unloaded .38 special. (Not a smart choice.)
He needs to check the pipes or equipment for the company he works for, Fredrickson Pipe Co.
At 11 pm, Friday night?
On one of the coldest nights of the year.
With kids in back?
Why can’t it wait till the next morning?
What’s gonna change from 11 pm Fri night that can’t wait till say 7-8 am Sat morning?

We have to presume their intentions are innocent and conscientious.
But boy, I bet they regret that choice, if indeed it was a choice.

Now, maybe the kids had fallen asleep during the car ride from Sacramento, but wouldn’t they wake up if there was some altercation with the raccoon hunters and ensuing urgency to get the hell out of Dodge? I don’t see that the raccoon hunters report seeing kids in the back of the Yours car, despite shining a flashflight into or at their vehicle. Not that that is a dealbreaker of any sort. The kids could’ve stayed asleep, been lying across the back seat, and thus not visible to someone a bit back from the vehicle, at night.

Historical weather and moon data would seem to confirm and add a sense of the cold and dark experienced that night.
http://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1968/december
http://farmersalmanac.com/weather-histo … 968/12/20/
https://weatherspark.com/history/31587/ … ted-States

Bear in mind that this was a few days before Christmas too and Holiday spirit could be running high.
Possibly also contributing to why so many people may have been out there at the relatively removed location, on such a cold and dark night.

Helen, age 18, Vallejo on 12/23/68:
‘Miss … reports that she and her boy-friend, a sailor, were driving on Lake Herman Road. They passed the area of the Pumping Station, she recognized the Rambler and the victims, Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday. Stated that when she went by about 10:15PM the car was facing in towards the gate (!) and when she returned about 15 minutes later after having gone to the end of the road and then came back, the car was turned around and the front was facing the field, a little to the side. There is some conflict in this statement and Miss … has consented to bring ther boy-friend to the office to clarify the actual position of the car. The first time she stated when she called, that the car was backed in. Noting this discrepancy, the RO contacted her by telephone on this date 12/28/68 at 12:00 noon (later?).’

Was this young couple one of the light colored Chevy Impalas seen that night?
And what came of the follow up on 12/28?
Was the sailor (Navy?) boyfriend questioned?
Who was he and where is his contribution in the police report?

If a .38 was even hinted at being involved, and one of the key timeline witnesses had one present at the CS that night,
why would you not pursue that lead and have it cleared of suspicion?

Fair question. But then again what Lundblad says in the article mentioned (I’ll see if I can’t dig that up, by the way) indicates that they DID clear it up. It wasn’t a .38, so the point about the Yours’ gun becomes moot.

I’ve thought about their presence there as being somewhat odd myself – be it said. Checking the pipes at night, whole family with him – seems peculiar. Add to that the altercation with the hunters – and, yeah, it just looks weird. But then, we’re bound to overemphasize anything which catches the eye when reading that report – and the whole Your/hunter thing is very much eye catching, downright bizarre even, so…

I doubt it’s anything there – that would be my ultimate take on it, but I don’t blame you for looking at it, never hurts to dig (and keep digging) in the files and reports.

Robert ……, WMA age 27 and Frank Gasser, Gasser Ranch:
‘(…) have been identified (…) as racoon hunters who were in the area of the Benicia Pumping Station and who have been identified by Mrs. …. (Peggy). They had their 1959 pick-up truck, Red in color, with wood side-boards, parked inside the field of the Marshall Ranch. In this interview it was learned that they were hunting in the area from 9:00PM to 11:00PM. 11:00PM was approximate, because …. looked at his watch and he knew it was in the area of 11:00PM. It could have been five minutes to the hour or ten minutes to. It took them three or four minutes possibly five minutes to get back to their truck, walking up the road on the side of the creek. They were short to rep…. (unreadable, p.22) pulled into the driveway, which was later identified as the (unreadable) car belonging to Mrs. …. They claimed that they (unreadable) they would put them at 11:00PM when they left the scene. They described the (…) Rambler (Faraday) that was parked at the gate. It was parked Southwest of where we finally found the car. (!) This discrepancy wasn’t noted at first. This was a statement as to their activity during that night. They said that when they arrived there at 9:00PM a white 4-door hardtop, a ’59 or ’60 Impala, was parked there, and also, a truck coming out of the gate. This coincides with Information from Bingo Wesher (!) that when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by (!).’

Robert M. …. (as above):
‘He states that he went to the Gasser Ranch at approximately 6:00PM. They sat around awhile (…) arrived in the area of the pump station around 9:00PM. They parked the car about 25 feet inside of the Marshall Ranch property off the road. They walked the creek towards the pump station. They had the dogs loose and they treed either a cat or a racoon in the area of the Dotta Ranch (!). While they were there they saw some sort of activity up there, all the lights were on, but they were a little distance away and couldn’t tell what the activity was. The dogs treed a racoon in an oak tree near the Pump station. The racoon was shot with a long barrell .22 revolver. This revolver was examined and had been eliminated by shell casings of the suspected (?) weapon. …. remembers looking at his watch and he rememberst that it was in the area of 11:00PM, possibly five or ten minutes before and they headed back towards the car. He said it took them about 10 minutes to walk back to the truck. He was at the truck about a total of 5 minutes and a car came in, that has been identified as Mrs. …’s, it drove in, turned around and drove back in the opposite direction towards Benicia, again (?). He states that approximately 5 minutes later they drove in his truck a ’59 Chevrolet, red in color, with white wood sideboards, cattle guards, on the sides. They drove tihs truck back to the Gasser Ranch heading towards Benicia and they passed the car. …. insists that the Rambler was parked on the bank. That would be on the South side. He did not see any person in the car. He estimates he left the area between 11:00PM and 11:15PM. He remained at the Gasser’s house about an hour and then left out through Highway #21, through the Jamison Canyon and headed home, arriving about 12:30AM. He was aked if he had an rifle. He stated that he had a automatic rifle. The RO advised him of his constitutional rights at this time. Due to the fact that he was in the area and he did have a rifle which he claimed he didn’t have with him that night. He was given a receipt for that rifle. The rifle was tested in the S/O by Rangemaster George Parks. (…) of George Parks this rifle has been eliminated as a suspected weapon. ….. states that Mr. Gasser does have an automatic rifle but that he doesn’t have it at the house. He suggested that we call or see a gentleman by the name of Harlan …. who lived at …06 Hargus Avenue. It is possible that the gun is there, because Gasser does not leave his guns at the ranch because of recent thefts. ….’s car has the California license # D-26024.’

Has anyone pinpointed where this Dotta Ranch was?
Was it the buildings by the lake also known as ‘The Cottage’?
This article about Benicia’s water supply says that the Water Company acquired the Frank Dotta Ranch in 1917.
So to have still been referring to the property, wherever it was, as the Dotta Ranch, in 1969, had a remarkably enduring legacy.
Not that it was an unfeasible stretch.
But something you’d think old timers/locals/people in the know would know.
This 1926 biography of Frank Dotta seems to place his ranch on Sulphur Springs Rd
http://www.cagenweb.com/solano/biodottaf.html
It refers to him as the keeper of Lake Herman and in a notable twist, county weed inspector.
The astute eye will also note the family’s involvement with the freemasons also.

According to this cached article,
http://www.solanoarticles.com/history/i … 1&hl=en&ct

It was not until World War II, however, that Vallejo changed the name of “Sulphur Springs Road” to its present title.

yes, yes, to what? Columbus Parkway? Sky Valley Road? something else?
Sulphur Springs Creek runs either side of Lake Herman.
And judging by the references in similar searches, I’m thinking Sulphur Springs Road ran alongside the upstream part of the creek,
that is, on the more northern side of LH and LH Rd, thus making SS Rd now Sky Valley Rd, and therefore placing the Dotta Ranch
to the NW of Lake Herman. Quite possibly the property to the immediate west of the Marshall Ranch,
and for refernce, the Borges Ranch a little further west, but ‘below’ LH Rd.
So Dotta Ranch is on the opposite side of LH Rd to Lake Herman however the property possibly encompassed the Lake & its ‘Cottage’ as well.
I think.
There is also a Sulphur Springs Canyon and fault line referred to in some searches which would also make sense, given the lay of the land there.

Going to do some ‘virtual driving’ along LH Rd on Google Maps Street view and see what I can find.

Not sure at all but I think Sulphur Springs Road is the old name of Lake Herman Road.

As for the Dotta ranch, I seem to recall (this was discussed somewhere, BTW) that it was next door (so to speak) to the Borges ranch.

Ah yes, LH Rd.
That would make sense.
Although I would like to know for sure.
Sky Valley Rd makes sense too.
And that seems to juxtapose the bulk of SS Creek, that being the upstream portion from Lake Herman.
Additionally Sulphur Springs canyon and Sulphur Springs fault line seams (sorry, couldn’t resist) to be along this section.

As for the proximity of the Dotta Ranch to the Borges one, it’s the ‘so to speak’ that I’m trying to eliminate.
I realise this might be going over some old ground but I did run a search for the Dotta Ranch on these boards before my post and I couldn’t nail down an answer.