My contact with the families of the victims has been limited to siblings and cousins. I have not talked to any of the parents. The parents of the victims have historically avoided any discussion of their daughter’s murders. None of the parents have ever sought each other out for any reason, to compare the crimes or for consolation. The same is true for the two victims that were killed together, Weber and Sterling. The parents of these two young girls never spoke to each other after the murders.

I know we find that odd today where the parents of murder victims reach out for support and are given unsolicited support by total strangers via social media or memorial gatherings. The whole attitude was different back then and I get the feeling that the parents felt guilt and/or shame that their children were killed. Kim Allen’s father never allowed Kim’s name to be spoken in the home after she died. Yvonne Weber had a sister that was born the same year Yvonne died and the she never knew she had a older sister , let alone one who had been murdered, until she was a teenager. According to Sterling’s cousins her murder is not to be discussed within the family.

For me, there is only one thing that the SRHM and the Zodiac murders have in common and it is that all of the victims were of the same class. The victims came from working middle class families or were working middle class. Aside from some recreational drug use they were not addicts nor alcoholics, they were not criminals, petty or otherwise, the females weren’t prostitutes. None were mentally compromised. They were not marginal human beings, they were honest, productive members of society.

I have also said it before that I think Manalli was the letter writer in the Zodiac case but didn’t have the stones to do the killing himself. I never thought about him possibly hiring a person/persons to kill for him. Pretty interesting idea. I don’t think that is what happened but it is possible. I do think that when he finally did get the courage to kill that he and a partner were responsible for the SRHH murders.

For me it always comes back to that personal ad. I don’t think I will ever be able to let that go.

Sry for my pessimism, but I am not convinced about Manalli – again, it´s all circumstancial evidence, just like AL Allen´s Zodiac watch. The simmilarities in the writing of Manalli might help us understanding that the real Zodiac was one individual with simmilar interests to Manalli, in regards to the arts and culture. But that´s it. Also, the "Zodiac" add sounds to me related to the Ku Klux Klan – maybe Klan members contacting themselves in a secretive manner? -, because of a reference to the "Imperial Wizard". Nothing like the Zodiac, since he is described as white and all of his known victims were also white, which shows that the crimes were never racially motivated.

The clues of the Zodiac case all point to a single individual – and the MO of the Zodiac compared to the Santa Rosa murders are different. Also, 2 witnesses of the SRHM say they saw a man with afro-hair – in one case, giving a ride to one of victims, and one the other, driving the car where 2 other individuals pushed the victim into that car. Again, nothing like the Zodiac (in regards to the eye-witnesses descriptions of the crimes).

Marshall–

What do you mean by double-dotting the i’s? Circles?

Satire was huge in the 60’s so it wouldn’t shock me at all if many people used that term. I agree, when you combine some of the usage of phrases, it is very intriguing..one would have to be blind not to see that, but I have seen too much coincidence with this case. Who knows what Fred may have picked up on, or what Zodiac and Fred could have been reading (Inside Detective) or watching (The Mikado–60’s NBC), etc.

I certainly wouldn’t dismiss his letter writing (although I see more that doesn’t match, than does) due to those traits, but then we have something much more–which is hard for me to grasp…but, hey, that’s just me! I think there was some other nut-job out there at LB, so…

–Do you guys know what made Richard Anderson a suspect (without me having to go back and read)?

I’m not sure how Anderson became a suspect. Carlstedt believed that Anderson knew a whole lot more than he was saying and Carlstedt leaned on him pretty hard. Carlstedt figures that his badgering of Anderson is what drove him to commit suicide.

Thanks Seagull.

Did I read somewhere Anderson was an attorney in S.F. Am I trippin’?

Maybe we need a thread for this guy here within Manalli’s.

You are trippin’! Anderson was a laborer for S&H Construction at the time of his death.

I’ve been thinking about the ‘double dot’ thing above the lower case i’s. I don’t think it’s safe to take it as a writing feature per se. I believe it’s a writing instrument feature. Fiber tip to be precise and it’s caused but the fibers in the nib separating through use. A common feature between Manalli and Zodiac’s writing but by no means exclusive to either.

Another great find TRAV,does Manalli do it more than once? Does Zodiac?

Yes.

If the felt tip pen was fraying enough to create a double-dot, wouldn’t the letters surrounding it be a little fuzzy, as the pen would have that separation?

I thought that too but that would be more indicative of a brush type scenario I think. I mean, if the tip was totally shot then sure but I would imagine that’s new pen time and it would be unusable. If it was just starting to go then I can imagine the action of creating a dot would highlight the weakness but it wouldn’t necessarily show in the creation of other characters as you would be back to using the edge of the tip rather than ‘dotting’ it headfirst onto the page.

I could be wrong. Maybe he/they were unconsciously and accidentally using umlauts for whatever reason? Who knows. Or a fountain pen. I’m thinking more Manalli for that guess.

Well I don’t know either. If it’s not the pen’s fault, I’m thinking something subconscious, like a tick, twitch, or something. I believe Fred was a stutterer; I wonder if there might be some similar type thing that could cause some tension in someone’s writing hand that could cause that sort of thing.

Your theory would mean the tip of the pen had two specific, basically equal, halves, with a fairly large, distinct space between. When I have worn out the tips of those types of pens, I get more of a blob, which would create a sort of fuzzy asterisk shape. Not two, distinct, sharp points like what we see.

I would think your theory would be more plausible if we only saw double dots on one specific document, and several examples on that doc. But if there are several regularly dotted "i"s both before and after the double ones, that would lead me to believe the pen tip was fine. Since it seems to be such a random thing, on writing that otherwise shows no degradation of the pen, I think it’s a decent pen tip and the writer is doing a double hit. Just my opinion of course and I’m certainly no expert.

Also, are all those examples from a felt-tip pen? It looks like at least one of them might be a ball-point pen, and there’s no way that could be created without double-hitting it.

Do you think it could be a residual umlaut? I’m wondering how that would work. I’ve never learned any languages that use them but given what we believe we know of Zodiac – more likely from learning, and writing in, a language that uses them?

Do you think it could be a residual umlaut? I’m wondering how that would work. I’ve never learned any languages that use them but given what we believe we know of Zodiac – more likely from learning, and writing in, a language that uses them?

I thought of that, but I don’t think umlauts are used over the letter "i", so someone, let’s say a German writer, wouldn’t be thinking umlaut regarding that letter. I know they are over the letter "u" and maybe "o" but we don’t see examples of that (that I’m aware of.)

Also, some of the examples are more vertical, more like a colon than horizontal umlaut.

To me the main point is, if it isn’t the pen breaking down, it’s quite a coincidence to add to the dozen others, connecting Fred’s writing to that of Z.

To me the main point is, if it isn’t the pen breaking down, it’s quite a coincidence to add to the dozen others, connecting Fred’s writing to that of Z.

It certainly would be. I mean obviously I picked up on it as such and was thinking that at the time. Rather less dramatically now though I do wonder what it is, is it unique or does it happen in other peoples writing?

Another great find TRAV,does Manalli do it more than once? Does Zodiac?

Yes.

If the felt tip pen was fraying enough to create a double-dot, wouldn’t the letters surrounding it be a little fuzzy, as the pen would have that separation?

Man,I forgot about this….Damn you Fred,why do you keep sucking me back in to your thread with all your zodiacesque writing??