<His height is not a problem because IF he was involved in the Zodiac killings, he was not the actual killer. I do think he wrote the letters and did want to kill but didn’t have the balls to do it until a few years later. What are the odds that a personal ad addressed to Zodiac, saying "your partner is in deep real estate" would show up in the Chronicle just two days after Manalli’s death? To me that just can’t be a coincidence.>

How would a non-killer be able to include the Stine shirt pieces in the letters?

The personal ad is interesting – not sure back then in the pre-computer era someone could have placed an ad within 2 days. Maybe.

Did Manalli live in SF during the Z crimes? If so, where?

Well we’ve had a lot of auto tinkering in this case…maybe it was planned. Maybe Z was pissed later like ‘oh sure the one that goes off PERFECTLY no one cares about! F*ck!!" LOL

The guy answers, in between sips of coffee, as casual as if he was talking about the upcoming baseball season, that yeah, the guy lived in a trailer off Bloomfield Road, but we figured it out too late and he’d passed away. He didn’t remember the name.

Arthur Leigh Allen had a trailer in Santa Rosa. Very close to Sebastopol.

It would be interesting if your cop friend was referring to a different suspect living in close proximity to ALA.

So much is messed up… ALA has way to many diff spots (and when you count his boats…he could be anywhere) and too much shit happens around him… but all these trailers and killers…jesus stay the f out of CA is the point I guess lol

The problem with Manalli was he apparently was too tall – around 6’3.

One interesting thing, for what it’s worth: Stine and Manalli may have crossed paths at SF State, since they were both in the English department. The years don’t seem to overlap, but it was a small enough department where it could have happened.

His height is not a problem because IF he was involved in the Zodiac killings, he was not the actual killer. I do think he wrote the letters and did want to kill but didn’t have the balls to do it until a few years later. What are the odds that a personal ad addressed to Zodiac, saying "your partner is in deep real estate" would show up in the Chronicle just two days after Manalli’s death? To me that just can’t be a coincidence.

If Fred was part of a team and in close contact with the actual killer, to get the shirt piece and details of the murders to put in the letters, then why the personal ad in the first place?

It seems to me if the ad actually was relevant to Manalli and Z activity, it would indicate Fred, and the person who posted the ad (RA, perhaps Richard Anderson, who knew Fred and would’ve learned of his death) did not know who Z was, or at least, they did not know how to contact him directly.

My working theory-in-process is that Manalli wrote some of the later letters, but didn’t know who Z was. RA knew Fred and that he was writing letters pretending to be Z (or, one might say, Fred was picking up where Z left off.) Fred dies, and RA posts that ad, which basically says: Zodiac, the guy who has been writing letters under your "stage name" is now dead, FYI.

I’ve always thought they were communicating somehow and maybe one of the ciphers is a code between them…but I like this theory. He’s tellling z the imposter is dead – that actually makes the most sense to me. But the time is still wonky or the helper is someone REALLY in the know. The next day is awfully quick. Wouldn’t that mean a setup or the guy killed himself? Thanks.

<His height is not a problem because IF he was involved in the Zodiac killings, he was not the actual killer. I do think he wrote the letters and did want to kill but didn’t have the balls to do it until a few years later. What are the odds that a personal ad addressed to Zodiac, saying "your partner is in deep real estate" would show up in the Chronicle just two days after Manalli’s death? To me that just can’t be a coincidence.>

How would a non-killer be able to include the Stine shirt pieces in the letters?

The personal ad is interesting – not sure back then in the pre-computer era someone could have placed an ad within 2 days. Maybe.

Did Manalli live in SF during the Z crimes? If so, where?

Easily. The killer gives Manalli the piece of shirt.

Placing in ad only took a day or two, so that is not an issue. And people did communicate in that way, particularly criminals.

here is a list of known addresses for Manalli:
725 N. Dardiner Ave., Rockford, IL.
532 Bancroft Ave., San Leandro, CA. (1961)
961 Union St., San Francisco, CA. (1963)
462 Holyoke St., San Francisco, CA. (1964-???)
428 8th St., Santa Rosa, CA.
1570 North St. #11, Santa Rosa, CA.
109 Frederick St., San Francisco, CA. (1973)
2353 Alpine St., Rockford, IL. (1975)
6665 Sebastopol Rd., Sebastopol, CA. (1976-where he lived at the time of his death)

Just so that you can add what year Fred Manalli lived at 428 8th St in Santa Rosa, CA,
also that he worked as a teacher at Santa Rosa JR College , both in 1966 and 1967:

Santa Rosa, California, City Directory, 1966
Manalli Fred Tch Santa Rosa JR College
428 8th St., Santa Rosa, CA

Santa Rosa, California, City Directory, 1967
Manalli Fred Tch Santa Rosa JR College
428 8th St., Santa Rosa, CA

He ever do any sub work at Ramona?

Manalli seemed to have an intellect and creativity that could have been behind the Zodiac persona. His possible sketch of Kim Allen is suspect and would logically connect him to the other Santa Rosa murders, thereby making him a potential serial killer in at least one locality. Handwriting isn’t a bad match either. However, Manalli isn’t a great match to the witness descriptions of Zodiac.

Manalli seemed to have an intellect and creativity that could have been behind the Zodiac persona. His possible sketch of Kim Allen is suspect and would logically connect him to the other Santa Rosa murders, thereby making him a potential serial killer in at least one locality. Handwriting isn’t a bad match either. However, Manalli isn’t a great match to the witness descriptions of Zodiac.

Have to agree with your post Jacob but I don’t think manalli was flying solo, I think he wasn’t the only one involved in the zodiac and Santa Rosa murders

Here are some thoughts on Manalli and the personal ad…..

So IF Manalli was Zodiac’s partner and the ad is legit, this would most likely mean that 3-4 people were involved in the crimes. One person, "Zodiac", doing the killing. Manalli writing the letters. The "Imperial Wizard" and "R.A." probably would have been "behind-the-scenes" participants in some way. I think that Manalli was fascinated with murder, but did not kill anyone until a few years after the Zodiac murders ceased. I do think that he (and maybe Zodiac) were responsible for the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders. At some point they parted ways and Zodiac may have left the bay area completely. I’ll post my theory, and it will read as though I am stating facts, but these are just weird opinions…

I think that Zodiac and Manalli knew each other for at least a couple years prior to the Zodiac murders, and were both participants in the MK Ultra experiments. It’s possible that "R.A." and the "Imperial Wizard" were the ones pulling the strings. I think there is a chance that one of those two could have been Meyer Aaron Zeligs, a psychiatrist that lived a couple houses west of the corner of Washington & Cherry in 1969. His office was located just a couple blocks from where Paul Stine picked up his killer. Newspaper articles reveal that Zeligs was an experienced hypnotist, and he was well known and respected by high profile people, including high ranking military officials. Could he have been the "Imperial Wizard" and "R.A." was perhaps a CIA official, working together on mind control experiments in the bay area? We know that these experiments were definitely happening there in the 60’s. So if this is the case, maybe the personal ad was "R.A." trying to reach out to Zodiac because the experiments had ended in the early 70’s and they had no contact after that. Zeligs could have witnessed the Stine murder from his front yard in order to get a first hand look at how the experiment was going. And Zeligs would have been someone that the CIA easily could have utilized for this program because of his expertise in that line of work.

Zeligs was in the Marine Corp. and was later a Naval officer. He was considered to be an expert in treating "battle shock." Hmmm. Soldiers experiencing "battle shock" would make for perfect candidates for MK Ultra. Zeligs’ wife was a decoding officer in the Navy.
Frisco Beat: William Worley
http://www.donherron.com/frisco-beat-william-worley/
"William Worley, author of MY DEAD WIFE, encountered Zeligs at a party. Worley was so traumatized by the notion that he could be psychoanalyzed by his writing, that he published under pseudonyms for the rest of his life (!)."

Could Manalli have been present and been the one that wrote on Bryan Hartnell’s car door at Lake Berryessa? I don’t see why not. As far fetched as all of this may sound, it is possible.

Ophion, I’ve always believed that manalli was a passenger at lake berryessa,

3-4 people? I think that would be highly unlikely. It was said before but generally serial killers tend to operate on their own, I have no reason to believe that wasn’t the case with the Zodiac. What makes you believe Manalli and Zodiac knew each other?

Didn’t Z have a huge beef with Billy Graham and his abortions…any way to link these two? Thanks.

It’s March 1, not April 1.

Here are some thoughts on Manalli and the personal ad…..

So IF Manalli was Zodiac’s partner and the ad is legit, this would most likely mean that 3-4 people were involved in the crimes. One person, "Zodiac", doing the killing. Manalli writing the letters. The "Imperial Wizard" and "R.A." probably would have been "behind-the-scenes" participants in some way. I think that Manalli was fascinated with murder, but did not kill anyone until a few years after the Zodiac murders ceased. I do think that he (and maybe Zodiac) were responsible for the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders. At some point they parted ways and Zodiac may have left the bay area completely. I’ll post my theory, and it will read as though I am stating facts, but these are just weird opinions…

I think that Zodiac and Manalli knew each other for at least a couple years prior to the Zodiac murders, and were both participants in the MK Ultra experiments. It’s possible that "R.A." and the "Imperial Wizard" were the ones pulling the strings. I think there is a chance that one of those two could have been Meyer Aaron Zeligs, a psychiatrist that lived a couple houses west of the corner of Washington & Cherry in 1969. His office was located just a couple blocks from where Paul Stine picked up his killer. Newspaper articles reveal that Zeligs was an experienced hypnotist, and he was well known and respected by high profile people, including high ranking military officials. Could he have been the "Imperial Wizard" and "R.A." was perhaps a CIA official, working together on mind control experiments in the bay area? We know that these experiments were definitely happening there in the 60’s. So if this is the case, maybe the personal ad was "R.A." trying to reach out to Zodiac because the experiments had ended in the early 70’s and they had no contact after that. Zeligs could have witnessed the Stine murder from his front yard in order to get a first hand look at how the experiment was going. And Zeligs would have been someone that the CIA easily could have utilized for this program because of his expertise in that line of work.

Zeligs was in the Marine Corp. and was later a Naval officer. He was considered to be an expert in treating "battle shock." Hmmm. Soldiers experiencing "battle shock" would make for perfect candidates for MK Ultra. Zeligs’ wife was a decoding officer in the Navy.
Frisco Beat: William Worley
http://www.donherron.com/frisco-beat-william-worley/
"William Worley, author of MY DEAD WIFE, encountered Zeligs at a party. Worley was so traumatized by the notion that he could be psychoanalyzed by his writing, that he published under pseudonyms for the rest of his life (!)."

Could Manalli have been present and been the one that wrote on Bryan Hartnell’s car door at Lake Berryessa? I don’t see why not. As far fetched as all of this may sound, it is possible.

Unless they could see into the future that newspaper ad was nothing to do with Manalli.

3-4 people? I think that would be highly unlikely. It was said before but generally serial killers tend to operate on their own, I have no reason to believe that wasn’t the case with the Zodiac. What makes you believe Manalli and Zodiac knew each other?

True, but Zodiac may not have been a serial killer. Most serial killers have patterns that they rarely ever break. The Stine murder was breaking the pattern. There were several other things after that which would make me think that this was not the work of a serial killer. Part of the mission of MK Ultra was to create assassins. The Zodiac murders may have just been tests, to see if the experiments were working. I think this theory is just as valid as saying that it was just one psychotic person acting alone. There is no evidence to prove that either is true, so we should remain open-minded to any possibilities. But, again, so many patterns were broken in the Zodiac murders that I do think it is more likely that this was not just some crazed serial killer on the loose.

The personal ad, Manalli’s handwriting, and things that he said in letters are what make me believe that he was the "partner" in the whole thing.

It depends what pattern you subscribe to the Zodiac. I think you refer to the previous victims being couples and the attacks taking place on deserted lovers lane type places – however, he might have also targeted couples in these places because they were simply easy targets and after he got more confident (a very common trait in serial killers) he started killing in quicker succesion (4th of July, 27th of September and 11th of October) AND developed a more risky pattern. I am not saying that is what Zodiac’s thought process was, but it’s very plausible if you look into the traits of other serial killers.

I think there lies a danger in coming up with such an elaborate theory and then saying "there is no evidence that either is true’, because if we follow that very logic I could also say it was President Nixon and claim "there is no evidence that it isn’t true".

Fact remains that all the surviving victims and witnesses described one man. The description of this man being seemingly consistent: heavy set, brown or reddish brown hair etc. My personal preference then would be to follow this line of reasoning rather than preferring a theory of a multi-person job as part of a CIA mind control mission. I think that only further dilutes this investigation. Ask yourself, frankly, why would the CIA kill young couples, send cryptic ciphers to newspapers and place phone calls to local law enforcement? It makes zero sense.

It depends what pattern you subscribe to the Zodiac. I think you refer to the previous victims being couples and the attacks taking place on deserted lovers lane type places – however, he might have also targeted couples in these places because they were simply easy targets and after he got more confident (a very common trait in serial killers) he started killing in quicker succesion (4th of July, 27th of September and 11th of October) AND developed a more risky pattern. I am not saying that is what Zodiac’s thought process was, but it’s very plausible if you look into the traits of other serial killers.

I think there lies a danger in coming up with such an elaborate theory and then saying "there is no evidence that either is true’, because if we follow that very logic I could also say it was President Nixon and claim "there is no evidence that it isn’t true".

Fact remains that all the surviving victims and witnesses described one man. The description of this man being seemingly consistent: heavy set, brown or reddish brown hair etc. My personal preference then would be to follow this line of reasoning rather than preferring a theory of a multi-person job as part of a CIA mind control mission. I think that only further dilutes this investigation. Ask yourself, frankly, why would the CIA kill young couples, send cryptic ciphers to newspapers and place phone calls to local law enforcement? It makes zero sense.

"Would the CIA kill……..?" The answer is yes. And they have killed several innocent people over the last several decades. But what you’re saying is that nobody should think outside the box because you don’t agree with it and think that it is not possible. Maybe this is why the case has not been solved in more than 50 years, too many close-minded people like yourself wanting to keep looking in the same places that have been looked at by thousands of people already over the years. What’s the harm in turning over EVERY stone in sight? You never know, there just might be something under one of them. Just because one man did all the killing doesn’t mean there were not others involved.

CIA Agent George White: “Of course I was a very minor missionary, actually a heretic, but I toiled wholeheartedly in the vineyards because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, kill and cheat, steal, deceive, rape and pillage with the sanction and blessing of the All-Highest?”

I have no problem with thinking out of the box and turning over every stone in sight, my problem is I just don’t see this stone. Call me close-minded, but I choose to follow the hard evidence and ask critical questions in direct relation to that: why did Z place the Blue Rock Springs call roughly 40 minutes after the attack when it was only a 13 minute drive to that payphone? Did Z know Vallejo intimately? Did LE compare and/or match the bloody prints on the Stine cab with any of the latents from the letters and did it perhaps not match on enough points in that specific county to be a 100% match? Why did Toschi and Armstrong think Z wrote in the front with Stine? Did the police check for the shoe prints nears the David Rayfield sighting location? Did they narrow down the cars described by witnesses to POIs fitting the description? etc. etc.

My questions actually wasn’t "Would the CIA kill?" it was "Why would the CIA young couples, send cryptic ciphers to newspapers and place phone calls to local law enforcement? Don’t get me wrong, if you can get things pointing in this direction then I am all ears; therefore I am glad that you agree with me that the CIA theory is "out of the box". I guess I just need some evidence to think this far out of the box.