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Who else googles weird things when theyre sick?

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(@vanilla89)
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Hey everyone!

I’m a Scandinavian girl who basically ends up going from looking at kittens to gory murders in one sitting, the days I’m sick or sometimes when I can’t sleep.
I was pretty surprised to find an entire forum with a ton of people talking about this particular unsolved murder series.
After looking a bit at different posts I can see that most of you are in deep in this case and have done a ton of research about it which is really impressive!
I am pretty new to this case, but I love mysteries and trying to solve them, and I have already come up with a few observations, I would love some feedback about it! Also tell me if Im wrong please about some details.

Looking at a lot of witness descriptions I am a bit confused because witnesses seem to describe different types of killers, which is normal human behavior, we often struggle to remember correctly these things.
Most of the witnesses seem to agree that the killer was overweight but not obese, had a large, round face and short to regular height. These are the few things everyone agrees on.

When it comes to the killers hair it has been described as three versions

1) light brown hair that appears his own, wavy/curly and not well maintained/greasy

2) short crew cut, "dark" and parted to the side, and seems well maintained and rather meticulous,

3) having a reddish hair colour.

However from what I have seen suspects agree that the killer seems to have a full head of his natural hair (although they could of course be mistaken)

The first hair observation was observed by surviving victim Mike Mageau although he did not see the killer for a long time, or up close. The killer Mageau describes seems to be not very hygienic, and also this character seems sloppy when it comes to his attacks (perhaps not very intelligent). He seemed to first shoot at them once, then Mike appeared to be alive so the killer came back and shot at him a second time before driving off.
Although Mike might not have been able to get a good look at the killer, it is quite obvious to me that it must have been an accurate observation that the killer was about to leave then came back and shot a second time when he saw Mike appeared alive, because thats something Mike would most likely notice and remember.
This to me proves that the killer did not purposedly intend to leave a victim alive, hence the killer was merely being sloppy and not very smart. So in this case we have a sloppy, not very intelligent killer, who is also possibly not very hygienic.

This to me contradicts the police sketches in every possible way, as well as contradicting other witness descriptions. The police sketches show a man who has very perfect and tidy looking hair. He also has glasses, but what bothers me the most is that in the police sketches he does not have a large and wide face, which seems to be something all the witnesses agreed upon. Should we all together disregard the police sketches as being incredibly wrong and badly put together and are they possibly just leaving us astray? Or do we use them as important guidelines and should disregard the witness descriptions?

Also, did the Zodiac killer kill Paul Stine? If so why? It seemed very random and out of character to me. The zodiac killer seemed to attack young couples, as well as trying to attack a young pregnant mother with a child. The killer was also reported to be completely silent while attacking, not speaking a word. This all proves to me, that the zodiac killer had problems with social situations and the ability to develop meaningful relationships in his private life. The killer had no sexual interest in his victims, and he did not appear to personally know them. He did also not appear to want to create an intimate connection with his victims before killing them, unlike many other serial killers. This killer simply wanted to kill people who to him demonstrated their successful social skills and ability to create meaningful relationships, which he himself was incapable of.

The suspect Arthur Leigh Allen, could certainly fit a description of being not hygienic, sloppy, short to regular height, overweight but not obese, and a large face. He did have an education and could not be called stupid but perhaps below average. Allen also often would misspell words as a joke, which also showed low social skills because he was attempting to engage in social settings, but all he did was create his own internal joke with himself which the people around him could not enjoy or take part of (his own language sort of which only he could enjoy). This last personality trait is more important to me than the zodiac watch and mentioning of the same book as the zodiac killer.

Allen was a convicted child molester. A lot of people think this excludes him as a suspect, because these murders are not related to children. Is it possible that these young couples to him represented a society that did not accept his "sexual preference" or all the things he was always told he should be?

To me this seems unlikely because to me I feel like the killer took great pride and interest in his murders. He created all of the notes and ciphers, the mark at the car door, he even had his own costume. In his ciphers he wrote that he was collecting slaves for his afterlife and that his victims would become those slaves. It seems that we are dealing with a killer who is isolated from social activity to such extent that he has created an entire world of his own and possibly even his own religion where he is justifying his actions and feels righteous about it. His costume also seems to support this theory, that he almost is creating a super hero status for himself. This behavior as well as the misspelling which obviously is on purpose, is the same as Allen.

But like I said it seems unlikely to me that Allen would kill young couples because when you are that narcissistic and socially dysfunctional and living in your own world and when you make the decision to not pay attention to the law, or normal moral codes, –
a person who enjoyed killing as well as was a pedophile would certainly target children rather than young couples. It doesnt make sense to me that he would limit himself like that.

Also if we believe that the killer was sloppy and not very intelligent, in that case Allen was the killer; he was a suspect for a long time and the police took great interest in him, so had Allen been the killer he MUST HAVE left some type of definite incriminating evidence behind, being that sloppy.

So I personally do not believe that the killer was Allen. I have not gathered enough info about the other suspects yet to be able to have an opinion, but if we believe the killer is sloppy and less intelligent, then any of the other main suspects seem unlikely as well.

However there is also the theory that the killer is highly intelligent (either stupid or very smart) In this case, is it possible that he is writing codes with all of his purposedly placed misspellings in all of his notes? The one cipher which has been decoded was decoded into a product full of misspellings and a bottom row with what appeared to be random letters. Is it possible that he has created his own systems for the ciphers and that is the reason why people havent solved them? Is it possible that his first cipher which was solved, that the solved cipher came with a second hidden message through misspellings and the bottom row of letters? And then with his remaining three ciphers, are they created from a completely new system which he himself has created?

I think that at least the last part is highly probable, considering the killers narcissism, and social dysfunctional behavior. Even if he is not intelligent, it is still most probable that he created his own system for the three remaining ciphers, because the killer created his own identity for himself, his own costume, and possibly his own religion, so it only makes sense he would create his own language and system for the ciphers. In fact I think it would be completely out of character for the killer to continuously use common systems for his ciphers.
In the killers notes, it is also clear that the killer is surprised that his other ciphers are not solved. This is yet another great indication that the killer is highly narcissistic and socially dysfunctional. He is seeing a very obvious solution to all of the ciphers because he created them, and being unable to be put himself in the position of someone else, he can not understand that they are not easily solved. That is like a child sees things; identifying all his surroundings using himself as his only reference.

When it comes to the theory of a TEAM Zodiac I cannot make myself believe thats true. I agree that witness descriptions have varied a lot. However, what I am the most interested in is the clearly displayed personality of the killer and probable cause for targeting young couples. This killer like I said is an absolute loner, living in his own world, completely incapable of social relationships. His behavior to me proves severe problems not just in romantic relationships but also friendly relations, and even family relations. This person with this kind of personality has been completely isolated from meaningful human interaction for the biggest part of his life, and I do not believe he is even in regular contact with family members. The idea that he would be working with someone else seems absolutely and utterly impossible to me.
How would two such loners ever even find each other and connect before a time of internet? They wouldn’t. Had there been two loners, who against all odds knew each other; that relation would be so extremely rare and meaningful to them, and they would be so proud of having it, that I strongly believe we would have found evidence of a Zodiac team, and possibly a sort of war-like attitude. It is more likely they would instead show up both in the same identical costume, same identity, and be killing side by side for the same "righteous cause".
If there was a TEAM Zodiac that would have to mean that they each agreed on their own specific role in the killing. This again does not make any sense, because the personality of the killer clearly displayed in all of the notes and all of the encounters, is so incredibly narcissistic and socially incompetent, that he would NEVER be the kind of person to agree to give any of his important roles up to another person. The killer is also taking great pride in his killings, it is infinetely important to him, and he feels a strong sense of ownership and pride over it.
He would never agree to have a partner to listen to, take advice from, negotiate, compromise, and plan with, as well to give some of the credit to, that just makes ZERO sense to me.

Thats all I have for now :)

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 4:33 am
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
 

Welcome!

You definitely put a lot of thought into things so far.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 7:08 am
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
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Hi vanilla89–thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I just wanted to point a couple of things out. You mention, "The killer was also reported to be completely silent while attacking, not speaking a word." While this is true of Mike Mageau’s experience, it is not the case with the Lake Berryessa attack. This is part of the conundrum. Two very different scenarios. One would assume he would have spoken to Paul Stine, and of course we don’t know what happened on Lake Herman road, except to say what happened, happened quite quickly so any "conversation" didn’t last long, if at all.

Why do you think Mike Mageau’s killer wasn’t very hygienic? Are you meaning to speak of the man at Lake Berryessa? I don’t believe I ever heard that of the person who attacked Mike and Darlene at Blue Rock Springs. Sloppy came from Bryan Hartnell who also mentioned the greasy/sweaty hair and sloppy dress. Mike M. mentioned his attacker wearing a t-shirt, mentioned his build, and his curly light brown, almost blond hair, but that is all.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 7:25 am
(@vanilla89)
Posts: 4
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Topic starter
 

Tahoe what makes you think he was the one killing Paul Stine? I would be interested in hearing what you are thinking about that! To me it just seems so out of character.
Thank you for pointing those things out to me! I thought I read somewhere that Mike Mageau described the killer as having greasy curly hair, light brown, falling in front of his face, but I also read that Mageau changed his statements and later described his hair as reddish brown, Im not sure, perhaps Im mixing his changing statements with that of Bryan Hartnell who described greasy hair, you probably know these details better than me.
However one thing I’d like to add regarding the Paul Stine case, is that those eyewitnesses were the ones who helped put together the police sketches, and those sketches also do not at all show a man who is overwheight with a large face, and thats another reason to me, besides psychologically how that doesnt seem to fit his victim profile, it doesnt add up to me that Zodiac is the Paul Stine killer

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 8:29 am
(@doctors)
Posts: 84
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Hello and welcome. Arthur Leigh Allen’s IQ was around 130, which made him quite gifted. He was about 6 foot tall, a bit above the 5’8 in some Z descriptions. Zodiac was an organized serial killer, generally brought his killing tools with him and took them away as well. Kind of the antithesis of sloppy. And yes, in the days before the internet lots of killer teams found each other. Deviants tend to attract deviants and increase the quotient of sadism. I have named numerous killer teams in another thread, but off the top of my head I recall Corll/Henley, Bonin/Butts, Bianchi/Buono, Lake/Ng, York/Latham, Bittaker/Norris, Fernandez/Beck, Hindley/Brady, the Carsons, Homolka/Bernardo, Coleman/Brown, and the Gallegos.

Allen’s trailer in Santa Rosa was searched pretty thoroughly by the police. Graysmith had a theory that he had stored some trophies in his locker at work and destroyed or discarded any evidence after the search. No swatches of Paul Stine’s shirt in letters after this. Allen is an interesting suspect. Unfortunately, the evidence that would lead to a conviction just wasn’t there. A team might explain why nothing in the writing or prints/DNA on letters could point to Allen. I’m biased, I’m sure, but check out the threads on Fred Manalli. His handwriting is the closest I’ve seen to Z’s and he lived in the Santa Rosa area the same time as Allen. I really think the two could be the Zodiac team.

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 3:34 pm
(@yoursecretpal)
Posts: 180
Estimable Member
 

We know he killed Stine because pieces of Stines shirt were mailed with 3 of the letters.

So unless there is some huge police conspiracy… it was the Zodiac

http://TheZodiacKiller.com

 
Posted : May 22, 2017 5:08 pm
(@vanilla89)
Posts: 4
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Topic starter
 

I have named numerous killer teams in another thread, but off the top of my head I recall Corll/Henley, Bonin/Butts, Bianchi/Buono, Lake/Ng, York/Latham, Bittaker/Norris, Fernandez/Beck, Hindley/Brady, the Carsons, Homolka/Bernardo, Coleman/Brown, and the Gallegos.

Ok but those personalities are not anything like the personality of a person with low social skills. For instance Homolka and Bernardo were both thought to never have become murderers had they not met each other and brought out that side of each other. They were called the Barbie and Ken killers, were both very beautiful, extremely popular and gifted in social settings, had a lot of charisma, humour etc. Homolka fits the description of a sociopath and Bernardo fits the description of a psychopath. A psychopath is someone who has FULL UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN EMOTION, but who just cannot feel them. Psychopaths are the opposite of for instance people with autism, who can FEEL ALL HUMAN EMOTION BUT NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT.
When it comes to Zodiacs behavior he shows so extremely many proofs of being a person who does NOT UNDERSTAND HUMAN EMOTION. Which is what makes him have low social skills, be awkward, create his own costume and religion, and targeting couples. Out of EVERYTHING I have read about the Zodiac, although I might get some details wrong. the one thing I know for certain is that EVERYTHING he has ever done has clearly shown this personality trait and lack of social skills, and therefore I strongly believe he could not have been a part of a team.

 
Posted : May 23, 2017 1:45 am
(@vanilla89)
Posts: 4
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Topic starter
 

We know he killed Stine because pieces of Stines shirt were mailed with 3 of the letters.

So unless there is some huge police conspiracy… it was the Zodiac

Great! Thanks for that info :) Why do you think he killed Stine though? Serial killers who develop a pattern almost always stick to that pattern, Do you think that being a cab driver, that is a likely profession where Stine might have been a witness to something? Or know some incriminating information about the Zodiac? Possibly where he lived or something like that, I dont know. It would have to be more than just seeing his face because by killing Stine Zodiac actually showed his face to several witnesses.

 
Posted : May 23, 2017 1:50 am
ophion1031
(@ophion1031)
Posts: 1798
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We know he killed Stine because pieces of Stines shirt were mailed with 3 of the letters.

So unless there is some huge police conspiracy… it was the Zodiac

Great! Thanks for that info :) Why do you think he killed Stine though? Serial killers who develop a pattern almost always stick to that pattern, Do you think that being a cab driver, that is a likely profession where Stine might have been a witness to something? Or know some incriminating information about the Zodiac? Possibly where he lived or something like that, I dont know. It would have to be more than just seeing his face because by killing Stine Zodiac actually showed his face to several witnesses.

One idea on that is that there was a psychopath named Bill Thoresen who lived 1 mile from the Stine murder scene. I have wondered if he had something to do with Stine’s death because maybe he overheard something he shouldn’t have. Thoresen was up to no good that’s for sure.

A few minutes ago on a toilet not very far, far away….

 
Posted : May 23, 2017 8:52 am
(@doctors)
Posts: 84
Trusted Member
 

We are both entitled to our opinion. I agree there are certain characteristics about Zodiac that point to awkward social functioning. For instance, I can’t see him being in a successful relationship. The blitz style of attack usually indicates some form of inadequacy. That said, it is generally believed that Cheri Jo Bates walked with her killer to her car. Not sure you would walk down a dark alley with somebody you found creepy. And at Lake Berryessa, Z spent a great deal of time taking with the victims. He even managed to elude suspicion when stopped by the cops after Paul Stine’s murder. My guess is like most psychopaths there is a facade of normal behavior, the mask of sanity. Once the victim is subdued, the deviant monster emerges. On the surface they can appear quite normal, even charming. Otherwise they are the creepy, scary neighbor that everyone thinks has bodies buried in the crawl space and they get caught rather quickly.

I think the deal with teams from what I gather is there is one who is the dominant and the other who is more of the follower. Separately they might not even have started killing. But they feed off each other.

I’m not convinced it was a team at all. But I do think we need to be open to the possibility, especially until we find all of the evidence matching one suspect, and that hasn’t happened yet.

 
Posted : May 23, 2017 7:50 pm
(@yoursecretpal)
Posts: 180
Estimable Member
 

Oh, and Welcome Vanilla89. Looks like you’ve done quite a bit of research in a short time…. well my theory is yes Paul Stine picked up on something about The Zodiac or his location, maybe he had even picked him up before, maybe got suspicious so Z ended up changing his MO and killed Stine that night.

http://TheZodiacKiller.com

 
Posted : May 23, 2017 10:10 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
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Stine is the only true victim we know was, without a doubt, a Zodiac crime.

IF Paul knew Zodiac, then Paul could have been Zodiac’s true target all along…the others being made to hide this fact. (Think Christie’s ABC murders).

Or, could be Paul was just in the wrong place and the wrong time and Zodiac was continuing his cowardly ways. This is most logical to me. I mean, how hard is it to murder a cab driver?


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 28, 2017 12:10 am
(@anonymous)
Posts: 1772
Noble Member
 

Another explanation is that Zodiac wanted his name in the big-city newspapers and on TV this time. He chose to shoot a cabbie because it’s an easy kill. And took a section of Stine’s shirt to prove that he was now operating in San Francisco.

This is a good indicator that the killings were perhaps secondary to a primary purpose such as infamy, media-exposure, striking fear into the general public and/or taunting the cops.

So, the Stine killing can lead you to look at the previous crimes from a similar perspective.

 
Posted : May 28, 2017 9:00 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
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I agree, RTF!! :)


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : May 29, 2017 9:27 pm
Quicktrader
(@quicktrader)
Posts: 2598
Famed Member
 

Vanilla, Vanilla..Skandinavian girls are always welcome ;)

You wrote:
Although Mike might not have been able to get a good look at the killer, it is quite obvious to me that it must have been an accurate observation that the killer was about to leave then came back and shot a second time when he saw Mike appeared alive, because thats something Mike would most likely notice and remember.

As far as I know, in his first statement Mike clearly had mentioned that he had not seen the face very well. The only thing he could remember was that Z had a large round face. Regarding Fouke’s sketch: Similar, a second was drawn because the first one was too slim. Kathleen Johns pointed at this second sketch. Z might have had even a rounder face than on that sketch.

What I like is your observation that Z hadn’t talked to his victims. He did, however, speak at Lake Berryessa, for about half an hour as far as I know. What is interesting is that there a ‘drawl’ was observed. Combining this with Z’s phone calls (‘Goooodbyyyye’) makes it possible that Z not only was dyslectic but also had some problems with his speaking. This would explain all the three: Rather not speaking to his victims, his certain drawl as well as the strange ‘gooodbyyye’..

Welcome

QT

*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*

 
Posted : May 30, 2017 11:00 am
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