I wonder is it likely or do we just think it because we’re creative enough to conceive of it after the fact?

This unanswerable question quoted for truth, though I tend to side with the latter. I wish just one theory, regarding any aspect of this case, could be verified. How frustrating.

The idea that Zodiac abducted Kathy simply because he wanted her to know he was the Zodiac before releasing her is one that, while it cannot be disproved, sounds very unlikely for several reasons. First, according to Kathy, her abductor didn’t let her go, she escaped. What Kathy’s fate would have been had her abductor not driven the wrong way up that exit road we will simply never know.

I think Tahoe has a valid point by asking "If he wanted Kathy to know he was Zodiac, why doesn’t he just tell her straight out?" However, if the abductor ‘come’s out’ to his captive and announces ‘I am the Zodiac’ then he would be aware that this information would likely cause any captive that, up to that point is fairly cooperative, to instantly panic and try to escape by any means necessary. It’s one thing to be kidnapped by a stranger, it’s quite another to be kidnapped by someone you now know is a serial killer.

My take on Kathleen’s attacker, was that he was a Guy that was timid in a one on one situation with a woman. Even with a weapon, and intednding to kill her, I bet he was super nervous.

I believe Zodiac was thrown off by the fact that Kathleen had a baby with her, he didn’t expect that. My own personal story makes me
believe Kathleen had an actual encounter with the Zodiac Killer. It has to do with the way he spoke and the language that he used.
She was a smart girl to think of escape, probably the mother instinct kicking in. And then it appears that Zodiac took credit for the
abduction in a letter.

My take on Kathleen’s attacker, was that he was a Guy that was timid in a one on one situation with a woman. Even with a weapon, and intednding to kill her, I bet he was super nervous.

If her abductor was Zodiac, then I have always though his actions that night of driving around aimlessly was the result of him not knowing, nor expecting, his captive to come complete with one baby in arms being held by it’s mother who is also 7 Months Pregnant.
According to the account given by Kathy, her abductor did not realise she had a baby with her and was also pregnant until he got in his vehicle where Kathy was sat waiting where he looked across at his captive passenger and, with confusion in his voice, said words to the effect of "I didn’t know you had a baby with you."

I think this is what led to him driving the quiet back roads for ages that night as he probably genuinely trying to think what to do now that this unforeseen ‘glitch’ has arose in his plan to abduct a single female. While he threatened to ‘throw the baby out the window’ of the vehicle, he never actually even attempted to make a grab for the baby let alone throw the infant anywhere.

Do I think the abductor planned to get a female driver to pull over, loosen her lug nuts, watch her drive off and the tyre completely come off the car, then offer her a lift and go through this great effort to kidnap a female just so he can drive around with her before letting her go? No, sounds unlikely. Her abductor was probably driving aimlessly while wrestling with his own self about killing both a pregnant mother along with her infant child.

I do think Z hesitated with KJ and the baby..gives some insight into his mind which is not as morbid as manson clan killing a pregnant women..perhaps a "preachers kid"…YMMV

My take on Kathleen’s attacker, was that he was a Guy that was timid in a one on one situation with a woman. Even with a weapon, and intednding to kill her, I bet he was super nervous.

If her abductor was Zodiac, then I have always though his actions that night of driving around aimlessly was the result of him not knowing, nor expecting, his captive to come complete with one baby in arms being held by it’s mother who is also 7 Months Pregnant.
According to the account given by Kathy, her abductor did not realise she had a baby with her and was also pregnant until he got in his vehicle where Kathy was sat waiting where he looked across at his captive passenger and, with confusion in his voice, said words to the effect of "I didn’t know you had a baby with you."

I think this is what led to him driving the quiet back roads for ages that night as he probably genuinely trying to think what to do now that this unforeseen ‘glitch’ has arose in his plan to abduct a single female. While he threatened to ‘throw the baby out the window’ of the vehicle, he never actually even attempted to make a grab for the baby let alone throw the infant anywhere.

Do I think the abductor planned to get a female driver to pull over, loosen her lug nuts, watch her drive off and the tyre completely come off the car, then offer her a lift and go through this great effort to kidnap a female just so he can drive around with her before letting her go? No, sounds unlikely. Her abductor was probably driving aimlessly while wrestling with his own self about killing both a pregnant mother along with her infant child.

He could have done all those things and still not be the Zodiac. There were other people at that time who were killing women other than the Zodiac.

"He could have done all those things and still not be the Zodiac. There were other people at that time who were killing women other than the Zodiac."

No argument with that. Plenty of nut cases out there. However, Carol Stine (Sister of Z ‘victom’ Paul Stine) stated that on that very same highway, and on the very same day, she had been driving home when a vehicle came up behind her gaining on her petty fast until it was rite behind her. She stated that the driver started flashing his headlights and honking his horn to get her attention before he pulled parallel alongside her vehicle and was mouthing something and pointing at her vehicles tyre. Carol said she instantly knew this was trouble and, maybe out of nervousness, stuck her tongue out at him and accelerated away.

Keeping in mind that this happens to Carol after her other brother, Joe, had publically challenged Zodiac to come for him as the next ‘victom’ and told the faceless killer that he was also gutless, before disclosing his route taken to work, the fact that he rides a bike, and is at no time armed. Joe was, obviously, less than courteous to Zodiac and stated he believed him to be a coward.

If that story could be confirmed as true, then I’d be confident that Kathy’s abductor was the Zodiac and she was targeted after he failed to get what he wanted, that being, to respond to the Challenge and insults thrown his way by Joe Stine, by killing another of his siblings.

In the police report it says that Johns claimed the man "changed the subject" every time she asked him why he didn’t stop (at a suitable garage or gas station). Has Johns ever elaborated on what the man actually said – he must have talked about something and if he really was Zodiac, you’d think his small talk was, let’s say, characteristic.

In the police report it says that Johns claimed the man "changed the subject" every time she asked him why he didn’t stop (at a suitable garage or gas station). Has Johns ever elaborated on what the man actually said – he must have talked about something and if he really was Zodiac, you’d think his small talk was, let’s say, characteristic.

Actually, according to K.J’s account, the ‘rather interesting ride’ she was taken on went on for quite a long time, but the talking did not. She only recounts a few sentences, comments and statements the abductor made. The only thing I can recall her abductor saying in reply to her asking why he did not stop at the store/garage/gas station was ‘It’s closed.’ Then, if memory serves me correctly, she asked "Do you often go round helping strangers on the highway?" and he replied "When I get done with them, they don’t need any help" or words to that effect. Then, after that slightly odd and concerning remark, he made the statement that left Kathy in no doubt that she was herself in desperate need of help by saying "After I kill you, I’m going to throw your baby out the window."

I mean me personally, I can’t imagine there would be much conversation flowing after a stranger declares this as their intension for you and your infant. That comment/threat would kill any potential conversation that may have otherwise occurred and I would be busy thinking at 1.000.000 MPH how I can get out of this car and situation.

And yes I would agree that based on the personality that Zodiac seems to have in his letters, we could half expect him to confess to Kathy just who it is she has accepted a ride from on that night before his ego brags of how he is crack proof etc etc. But I say in another thread that while yes, that personality that exists on the pages of his letters is consistent and accurate with that of his personality in real life, it’s also just as possible that this confrontational ‘in your face’ personality who, if at a party would always be the centre of attention as the life of the party itself with his loud, boisterous confidence, is a personality he’s invented for his creation ‘Zodiac’ because it’s what he wishes he himself was, when in reality, he’s shy, quiet and reclusive.
He bragged of the glory there would be in killing a cop, yet in the flesh he will not approach even an unarmed Bryan Hartnell until Cecelia has bound and incapacitated him. He also rants on in letters boasting gleefully about doing his thing, yet when heard on the phone speaking his voice was described as soft spoken, almost a whisper.

With Zodiac I think there is a lot that isn’t at it seems, more a case of misdirection and he leading readers to see what he wants them to see on the surface, while hiding clues and hints within it.

He talked with her quite a bit as she states in the recorded interview with Howard Davis. Not that he rambled, but he did talk to her about regular stuff.

The entire thing is very much not like Zodiacs MO, but he said he would change his ways so everything now becomes believable.

Do you have a link to this interview for Kathleen with Howard Davis?

Been looking for a transcript of that interview myself. There are several posts by Howard Davis on T. Voight’s site (older versions of the board, mainly) which contain snippets from the interview (conducted by Davis and Johnny Smith in 1998), but I can’t seem to find the whole thing anywhere.

Johns seems to have changed her story over the years. But then again the original report was very slender. She may very well have told the police both this and that which simply wasn’t recorded/taken notice of at the time. And memory is a fickle thing. Browsing through an archived page from Voight’s old forum just now I came across a reference which made me chuckle: as an experiment a group of people were asked where they were at the time of the 1989 San Francisco earthquake – and then asked again, one year later. Every single one of them had altered their story. Seems like a relevant little piece of trivia in this context. Witnesses are unreliable – and that has nothing to do with people being mendacious as such.

You used to be able to buy the interview from Howard’s site but he has had problems and his site is no longer up. I will contact him and see if there is a way to make the interview available.

I know that he is at a convention this weekend so I probably won’t hear back from him for a couple of days.

… Browsing through an archived page from Voight’s old forum just now I came across a reference which made me chuckle: as an experiment a group of people were asked where they were at the time of the 1989 San Francisco earthquake – and then asked again, one year later. Every single one of them had altered their story. Seems like a relevant little piece of trivia in this context. Witnesses are unreliable – and that has nothing to do with people being mendacious as such.

I watched a documentary the other day that made me laugh too. They did a little experiment where they faked an alien spacecraft crash–the people knew it was fake. They then put camera’s on people to record exactly what they saw. They waited a while then asked them what they experienced. COMPLETELY made up stories. "Men with machine guns"…the list went on and on.

These people genuinely thought they saw what they saw. I am not saying Kathleen made anything up, but the mind is a curious thing.

Bye the way… I know exactly where I was during the quake and my story would, nor could ever be altered. I was under a coffee table that was about 2′ off the ground. I got out and took the risk. I’d rather be smooshed than entombed!

Sometimes I think people just want to be more a part of the action than they actually were. Or at the very least, make it more exciting.