Even more disturbing a recent Frontline show where they show fingerprint and ballistic examiners changing their results based on the story told to
them about the crime from Law Enforcement, by like 50%. In other words, they gave the examiners the same prints with different stories about the crime and what they were trying to prove, and received different results from the same examiner. Horrifying, if you think of the number of people in jail based on this type of evidence.
I’m sure handwriting analysis is even more subjective. It is best if the handwriting expert know nothing about the crime and is just given the samples to compare. Not the case with Sherwood Morrill in the Zodiac writings. They said there is no computer program that matches fingerprints, the final analysis is always
done by the human examiner. So fingerprint analysis can be influenced, ballistic analysis can be influenced, handwriting analysis can be influenced, and eyewitness accounts can be influenced. All we really have is DNA.

… Browsing through an archived page from Voight’s old forum just now I came across a reference which made me chuckle: as an experiment a group of people were asked where they were at the time of the 1989 San Francisco earthquake – and then asked again, one year later. Every single one of them had altered their story. Seems like a relevant little piece of trivia in this context. Witnesses are unreliable – and that has nothing to do with people being mendacious as such.

I watched a documentary the other day that made me laugh too. They did a little experiment where they faked an alien spacecraft crash–the people knew it was fake. They then put camera’s on people to record exactly what they saw. They waited a while then asked them what they experienced. COMPLETELY made up stories. "Men with machine guns"…the list went on and on.

These people genuinely thought they saw what they saw. I am not saying Kathleen made anything up, but the mind is a curious thing.

I had a professor who once staged a "theft" in class to demonstrate exactly how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. We were all sitting in the middle of a lecture when someone walked through the door, ran up to the professor’s desk, snatched his briefcase and ran away. We were all left sitting there extremely confused, but were later asked to write down as many details as we could remember about the perpetrator. Needless to say, the professor proved his point. The descriptions ran the gamut from a blonde man to a brunette man, relatively skinny to "chunky," dark complexion to pale complexion. It absolutely blew me away to hear what some people "remembered," and that demonstration is the reason why I’m rarely surprised when descriptions of a suspect don’t match, or when stories change over the years. It can certainly be suspicious (Mageau’s ever-changing description of the events is highly suspect, though I’m not terribly surprised given the life he’s had), but our memories aren’t always as perfect as we like to believe they are.

I can’t imagine living through an experience like Johns’. I know she went into hiding for a while and changed her name after the abduction, but she’s obviously given interviews since and there’s no telling how many articles or books she read that claimed to detail exactly what she went through that night. It’s easy to see how memories of the event could be warped over time with all the outside influences surrounding a case like this.

So fingerprint analysis can be influenced, ballistic analysis can be influenced, handwriting analysis can be influenced, and eyewitness accounts can be influenced. All we really have is DNA.

Sadly, you aren’t wrong. There’s an awful lot of speculation and opinion involved in many cases. Even DNA evidence can be contaminated if not handled properly, but it’s by far the most accurate scientific means of conviction we have. It’s a shame there hasn’t been more of DNA testing done to rule out potential Z suspects and narrow the field a bit.

I watched a documentary the other day that made me laugh too. They did a little experiment where they faked an alien spacecraft crash–the people knew it was fake. They then put camera’s on people to record exactly what they saw. They waited a while then asked them what they experienced. COMPLETELY made up stories. "Men with machine guns"…the list went on and on.

I’ve actually seen this documentary. It’s a great example of how you can be a victim of your own imagination. I suspect a lot of that went on with Zodiac and continues to this day.

I’ve been 100% sure of things only to be 100% wrong; only on rare occasions, of course.

I may take a few posts if I am interrupted at work. I am prez, but no matter!

I along with Johnny Smith PI interviewed Kathleen Johns on New Years Day 1998. We also interviewed Christine- younger sister of Darlene Ferrin. Both interviews were of great interest, and we did all we could to allow them to tell their story.

Kathleen had consented to be video taped on 132 in the future at night, and we were to have her recount what happened that night or 3/22/70. But, of course, she passed away- in time- of heart failure.

Before I discuss the interview ,I had spoken to a friend, a nurse, of Kathleen by phone. She told me she firmly believed her account concerning her abduction by Z. They had talked about it from time to time and she questioned her about it. They were always truthful with each other. She told me Kathleen was well aware posters had called her everything from an outright liar to being delusional and/or a fame monger, wanting money ,etc. Some even posted she burned her car to get insurance money!!! Her friend said as Kathy spoke about this she wept as all she ever wanted to do was simply tell her account of what happened and in hopes it would help catch Z or at least add to some clues or information. The degrading statements caused her sadness.
I explained what her friend already knew was that Americans can be very disrespectful and cynical. The Z posters- many of whom are respectful and post honest doubts,- were overshadowed at times by raucous types who were nowhere near 132 that night and seem to know so much about it and the character of Kathleen,etc.!

Kathleen was so poor at that time she could not afford insurance on her car at that time! Why drive all the way to 132 to burn your car being 7 months pregnant with a baby! Plenty of more ‘convenient’ places to burn a car that had no insurance!

Next, she told me she never asked for any money from anyone to tell her story. She met us with no remuneration in mind and that on a family oriented holiday! If we did pay her then collusion accusations could have arisen by those who seem know everything even though no personally involved.

I now see why some are reluctant to come forward as per the Z case as they know they will get harangued too!
For example, after years of searching down blind alleys I finally found Eric Zelm’s widow. I spoke to her several times by phone.
At first,(but I knew it was coming) posters were delighted to have her talk. Then in comes all the carping, name calling in effect ,doubts, why would she know anything, etc.,etc. Gez.

So called ‘fame freak’ Johns for many years went underground, which was not easy on her until RG found her years later!

I asked her what was the best interview and she told me based on her memory then was the one she did with GS and found in his book Zodiac.

The only new feature in our interview of 1998 was that she remembered a lot of ‘gum wrappers’ on the floor on the drivers side of the man who abducted her. She could have over the years greatly exaggerated, and added all kinds of things, but in reality she did not do this. I will explain.

I searched with great frustration for many years for the John’s police reports, and finally through Smith I was able to obtain them. All those PD reports are on my site. I posted the old link of the site as found on Wayback Machine on ZK.com. They are posted on this site and all of the reports are as posted by me on my site are here too. I have not been able to get ahold of my web guy. I need to get my site back up. Now I have another project-to locate him! My computer skills are not that good!

I spent years putting everything together as per John’s event 3/22/70.
John’s basic or intrinsic account has been the same.

She is driving to visit her mother who Johns told me was kind of a hypochondriac- ‘I m sick- I need help.’ So she takes the grandbaby and being 7 months pregnant she drives at night a route she had taken before to her mother. PART l

@bruce3

I appreciate your post, Howard – very much so, and I’m looking forward to reading more.

@Tahoe & Vossler:

On the same note, I remember going with a girlfriend of mine who studied psychology (which was probably why we didn’t get along in the end!) to a lecture – this was while I studied (or pretended to study, at least) in England. Anyway, the lecturer had the class participate in a little experiment. She showed them a short video clip, thirty seconds or so from a movie: a car drives down a street, pulls up in front of a house, some people get out and then go inside. That was it. Now, she instructed all the students to write down everything they could remember about that short clip: What did the car look like, what did the people look like, what did the house look like, what was the weather like…anything they remembered.

Then they all handed their "reports" in and she presented the results in the second part of her lecture. Everyone had the basics down – car driving down street, pulling up, people getting out, people going inside. But beyond that it was…anything and everything, really. The make and colour of the car, the number of people, how old they were – even their gender. All varied. The weather varied too – literally from sunny to rainy, it was quite staggering.

Now, what this particular lecturer focused on – and how she utilized the results of the experiment – gave me nothing at all, it only reinforced my skepticism as regards a certain kind of academic psychology, but those results themselves were an eye opener to me.

Got it Norse as I have studied psychology for many years too. In this case Johns was mostly in the car of the abductor and this differs in some respects from the video clip as well as other scenarios.

Some of this was recorded some was not as our recorder at the time went out! It was not mine! Some remarks are from the reports and sanctioned by Johns.

Intrinsic consistent facts: Johns is driving with a goal to visit her mother; so after she gets gas in Modesto and turns onto little travelled 132 at some point a car’s driver begins blinking the lights and sounding the horn. This continues for a short time. Finally the driver of the older ‘junky’ car ‘drives alongside John’s station wagon and yells out that some thing is wrong with her wagon. Johns tells me she thought it was probably correct as her wagon was not in great condition, but drivable.
So when she get close to the freeway she pulls over. The man pulls up and comes up to her smiling with a tire iron saying politely he will repair the problem with her wheel.
She tried to see what he is doing in her mirror, but eventually he tells her it is fixed and she thanks him. He begins to drive away and she moves forward to,but suddenly the right rear wheel leaves the wagon. She gets out and sees the tire in a ditch with weeds/grass she tells me. The man comes back and indicates it was not what he thought or an easy fix per se than he thought and that he would drive her to a station. As she spoke to him she looked over his shoulder and saw an ARCO station in the distance and she had an ARCO card. She saw him in her headlights now. This is her second view of this man. He coaxes her and out of desperation she gets into his car. Just prior to this she told me when she went to take her in infant out of the wagon this man noticed that as well as to the fact she was pregnant and she seemed to detect a bit of surprise on his face. She said all he could see was a blond young female driving until she got out, of course!

As they are driving she notes the wrappers on his side on the floor and notes over time things on his dash like a black rubber grip flashlight ,colored scouring pads; she told me she felt he was ‘living out of this car’. There were some child sized clothes laying around in the car as well as some papers and books. The interior looked askew. She told me she wished she had grabbed something as she later exited the car!
They pass the station. She then tried to engage him in conversation by asking where he worked. He said that he would ‘work for 3 months or so then drive a lot.’ After a time she got tired of the drive and asked why not this or that station with no good answer ; so finally she asked sarcastically,’ do you always drive around helping people like this,’ and that’s when he said,’ when I finish with them they don’t need any help!’

They were driving on old farm roads for a time and he seemed to know these roads. He would start to pull over and then drive back on the road. He did this a few times. He seemed to be trying to frighten her. Finally he stared at her with a cold stare and in a stark monotone with zero emotion said ‘you know I am going to kill you’ or words to that effect. At least at one point he said he wanted to get’ rid of the baby’- by inference- by throwing the child out of the door or window!
He said these things more than once. She is very scared and is trying to be calm outwardly so this man won’t explode in anger and attack her. In her work she had dealt with these kinds of people. Don’t provoke them was important in keeping them calm, etc.
Finally, he went up a wrong ramp in the dark, so she quickly told this man she was’ going to be sick’, and jumped out of his car and ran towards a vineyard. I think now that this man seeing she was pregnant thought she was telling the truth, and let her go for a short time then quickly realized it was an excuse to run. It bought her precious seconds. She hid in a furrow or ditch laying over her infant to muffle any cries. She could see his car and the man got out running after her.

She told me her child was a ‘real crier’ and it was a miracle she didn’t start crying while in the car. It could have set the driver off. She looked up while we were at the table ,and she had tears in her eyes which she was wiping ,saying ‘Someone was looking out for me(or us)that night.’ She was sweating then. She had to go outside for a few minutes then came back in. We could see going over this was emotional for her even though we were gentle as we spoke to her.
She said he, by then, was shining a flashlight (and she thought he was holding a hand gun in his other hand ) around the dark field saying to show herself or come out. She does not remember if he used profanity while saying this, but he was saying it in a threatening or demanding manner.
Then at some point a semi truck pulled up close by the scene, and the driver got out asking in a loud voice what was going on. The truck driver, no doubt, could see the flashlight playing the field in the dark ,and this man standing in the field seemingly looking for something.

The man then ran down to his car(perhaps he knew these drivers had CBs to call the police), and drove off at a ‘high rate of speed.’ Now, the police report has Kathleen saying the man stayed in the car then eventually got out closed the door then drove off. She did say something to that effect, but she told me they left out the part that he left the car and came after them! I asked her why didn’t she tell them these things, she then told me in a somewhat firm voice saying, "I did."
PART II

Howard…..

Excellent report once again. It’s too bad no one worked with her back then on the type of car Z was driving. She sat in the car for a couple hours, I’m sure she would have recalled enough detail of the inside of the car, the dash, the ashtray, glove box, any car model symbols, type of door handles, where they could have got a good idea of the make and model of the car. Now was the car Z drove a station wagon also? I thought Kathleen had reported that there were lots of kids clothes in the back of the car. Did she mention if he smoked? I forget, did she leave her purse in his car?

KJ mentions a lot about the car. No, he did not smoke.

BayArea 60’s, good questions as I was wondering the same myself.

Kathleen worked in a psychiatric facility and knew to remain calm. I’m sure she would have tried her best "to keep the man talking" to avoid letting him know she was afraid, don’t you think?

In all that time they were driving, it should have been very natural for her to ASK HIM WHAT KIND OF CAR! She could have easily began by telling him what a nice car she thought it was and then asking all about it. She could have just said she’d been thinking of getting another car herself since hers was so old but was undecided and was wondering how he liked his!

I am not criticizing Kathleen at all. I just think she may have asked him about this as well as things like where he was from, the kind of work he did, did he have any kids, etc. and it would have all seemed perfectly natural given the circumstances.

Back in the day, I don’t think most LE depts. were as well-trained perhaps as they are today, especially in the smaller towns. It may well be that Kathleen did have the above conversations with the man and tried to tell the police but that they just blew her off as in "just the facts, ma’am."

Later on, she may have been afraid to reveal any details she remembered fearing that he could come after her or her family and thinking whatever information she had was unimportant?

From what I remember reading about the car, I tend to think it was a Mustang.

I knew someone who had a 1967 Mustang. It was blue (similar to a dark turquoise) with a black vinyl top. As I recall, there were two ashtrays on the dashboard which I really liked because I smoked back in the day as did he. It was very convenient not to have to worry about the ashtray filling up too fast if we were going a distance. I seem to remember emptying the one on the right passenger side by the window when we would stop for gas.

It is possible that many other makes of cars had two ashtrays in the front at that time but I remember this feature as I’d never ridden in a car that had it and never since.

Recently, I saw an old beat up white Mustang from the same era parked in the lot at a local grocery store and I looked in the window in an effort to confirm my recollection and sure enough, there were two ashtrays in the front.

KJ mentions a lot about the car. No, he did not smoke.

I didn’t think she was asked if he smoked or not ? (Back then there were more smokers than not) I do remember that she saw an ashtray and cigarette lighter that she thought looked custom made in the center console.

Tahoe, if you have seen something in any report ,that tells about his not smoking, please share that report.

I wonder if he was trying to stop smoking by chewing a lot of gum , that would explain all of the gum wrappers ?

I am still a firm believer that Kathleen was abducted by Zodiac. Her description of him is a perfect match to the man I believe is the Zodiac, including the width of the band he used to hold his glasses in place. His ego and temper would cause him to distroy her car as her punishment, because she was able to flee from him.
For her to receive a card from him after she moved to northern Calif. tells me he was watching her in the same way Darlene was watched. How else would he know where she moved ? If I am not mistaken she also had phone calls from him ,telling her that he knew she had another daughter.

What a shame she died knowing that people didn’t believe her, I know how that feels and it is not a good feeling ,when you know you are telling the truth that could be a break in the case, if only you were believed.

Sandy–it is mentioned in the recorded interview as provided by Howard….on track #9.

She mentioned no smoking and no cigarette butts. She mentioned she was a smoker (track #10), but not during the ride.

Capricorn–KJ mentions on track #5 that his car was "big" and "old"…a Buick or Pontiac. No dome light-track #12. Newer than hers which was a ’61. Two-door. Did not remember the color…it "wasn’t light"…not red, blue, etc….brown or gold. I thought she mentioned two-toned at one point. I would have to listen again.

Kathleen worked in a psychiatric facility and knew to remain calm. I’m sure she would have tried her best "to keep the man talking" to avoid letting him know she was afraid, don’t you think?

In all that time they were driving, it should have been very natural for her to ASK HIM WHAT KIND OF CAR! She could have easily began by telling him what a nice car she thought it was and then asking all about it. She could have just said she’d been thinking of getting another car herself since hers was so old but was undecided and was wondering how he liked his!

According to her interview, in her words, at first she just thought he missed the exit and would turn around. After a couple more exits he pulled to the side and said "you know you’re going to die..I’m going to kill you". She said she couldn’t say anything–"what could she do?"

She said he cruised along slow and would threaten her and her baby. –Not so sure questions about his car would have fit into the conversation.

She said he threatened her many times and it got easier to hear…"unless you do something, it’s just talk". (track #10)

Also she says on track #11 that he could have attempted to kill her at any time. He was expecting to hear her screaming and crying. She thinks he was waiting for her to "break".

–No knife, no gun.

Thanks Tahoe, that could explain the gum wrappers. Because the man who would park across the street from Darlene’s home and the man I saw, is or was a chain smoker (Pall Mall’s ) Didn’t the guy at Lake Berryessa who was seen by the girls who were sunbathing a smoker ?

She didn’t see a knife or a gun, didn’t mean he didn’t have both on him or under his seat. Didn’t she say that when he was looking for her in the field, it looked like he had a flash light in one hand and perhaps a gun in the other hand ?