Thanks Tahoe, that could explain the gum wrappers. Because the man who would park across the street from Darlene’s home and the man I saw, is or was a chain smoker (Pall Mall’s ) Didn’t the guy at Lake Berryessa who was seen by the girls who were sunbathing a smoker ?

Here is the link where it is discussed, along with the report written by Ray Land as provided by Howard. Why this wasn’t carried over into other reports? Who knows…

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=1281

Interesting that it could have been a Pontiac. I happened to have had a 1967 Pontiac LeMans at the time. It was big but had two doors, two bucket seats and a large ashtray in the center of the dash and a console.

I also remember a friend had a Buick of the same era and it was quite similar on the interior IIRC. I don’t think it had bucket seats and a console, however. It may be that all the General Motors vehicles were similarly styled. A Chevrolet would have probably had a center ashtray and an Oldsmobile too. The bucket seats and console may have just come with certain models.

I still am surprised that Kathleen wouldn’t have been able to identify the make of the car even without asking as there is usually a distinctive hood ornament at least that identifies the different cars. Given that she was scared out of her wits early on, I’d think she’d try to remember every thing she could about the man and his car. Did she remember if he chewed gum while he was with her or could she see what kind of gum wrappers they were? Details such as this may have helped identify Z if released.

Of course that car may not even have belonged to Z. He could have rented various vehicles to use when he did his "thing."

I’t would be interesting to know what if anything he told her about his work other than he was employed three months or so and then drove around a lot. That brings farm labor and construction jobs to mind as well as some in the entertainment industry.

Her wagon was a 1957 Chevrolet HOJ 518 . It was not published in the media what color it was or that it was a wagon, but in the Halloween card Kathleen received in October 1970 it said, ‘ to the woman [may have been spelled woeman -in the [ correct color was given] station wagon.’ He wanted to verify it was him. She told me she sent this card to Paul Avery. When we spoke to him he said he did not get a card form KJ, but with so many letter/missives coming in it may- like 1990 Christmas card- have slipped through. According to Avery he got a lot of mail and some were cranks , etc. Same as in the old Ripper case when they got mail as if from the Ripper or those acting as though they knew who he was. So possible it may have gotten lost or some young clerk thought it was another screw sending crank mail, etc. It may turn up some day.

I have to find my notes as more was recorded in my notes than on the tape recorder as it went out after awhile. Gez. I had no where to go that day to get it working or to buy one with our time frame.

She also told me that she got some’ threatening calls’ form the stranger who abducted her. They were’ harassing’ in nature. When Z wrote about her abduction July 24,1970 , and it was printed in the Chronicle she took her children and went ‘underground’, and it wasn’t until later GS located her.

As to cars, colors, and the like, KJ indicated her memory at times was spotty(she had unbeknown to her cardiovascular disease which can affect memory) as with many people trying to recount events years later. Her overall account or as I call it the intrinsic story is essentially the same. She did recall his car was a two door with old black CA plates.
She was by the time she reached the Patterson substation "hysterical." She was very fearful during that terror ride which lasted some 1.5 hours or so. The first 30 minutes or so were alright as small talk was made. She mentioned she was going to Petaluma and he said he knew or had been to that city. She seems to recall that possibly he said he was going there or in that direction when he saw her wagon. At one point they came to a city as she remembered the lights while supposedly seeking a station ,and she asked him if it was Tracy and he confirmed that it was.

Now two men Horton and Beaman were driving as a man in a white 1959 Buick passed them by. Having gone about a mile ahead of them this man was waving to them from the side of the road to pull over. This took place "…near Highway 33 and 580 on 132." They read an article that if anyone saw anything relative to the Johns kidnapping incident to report it so they thought it would be of interest. The police were later not able to locate these men! Possibly they did later, but I could find no indication of this. They were according to the PD report unable to"…to furnish any type of description of the driver of this white 1959 Buick."

We know Paul Stine’s sister had a ‘chase incident'(I believe it was the same man that Johns encountered) on 132 during this same time giving validity to Johns account. Patterson news people told me that during this same time a man was seen staying in his car(which some believed was related to the John’s incident) which was parked at different places. When they got another report the police rushed out to the area, but he had left and was never seen in the area again. Johns did say it seemed ‘he was living out of his car’. I didn’t bring this out due to so many interruptions at work. but there were mens clothes which were in the majority compared to the children’s (8-12 years of age-T-shirts) clothes in the front and back of the car. The bucket seats were black and there was an ash tray on the right side of the center console which had a gear shift,and an ash tray in the front. Some have thought it was a tan-brown 2-door Olds Tornado, but it is still unclear as to what type of car he was driving. The police reports are very poorly done. The PI I was with lived in this area for years, and knew several of the police there, and he had’ little confidence’ in them. When I first read the reports after waiting years to find them I could only agree with him!

They stop short of calling it a real kidnap. They no doubt knew that the FBI would come in and they really didn’t like the Feds.

It has been suggested that Kathleen made up things about what was said between she and the stranger who I have avoided calling Z although I do believe it was ,but if you carefully read the reports though in literary shambles you see they left out certain statement she made to them just as she told me. For example, "Also, Mrs. Johns stated to Deputy Lovett that as best as she could describe the suspect he reminded her of the pictures she had seen[at the Patterson substation the ‘amended’ one she told me] of the Zodiac killer, she stated he made some weird statements [note the pl. but he does even bother to note these statement/s !!!] of one was(ONE of which -why not two or three more examples ,etc.?],when she asked him ,do you help many people out on the road ,the suspect said "By the time I get through with them [pl. Cheri Bates? is one of them ?] ,they won’t need my help."
If he made direct threats it moves up higher to a kidnap,etc. They seem to be avoiding that except for old Sgt. McNutt mentioning if it determined to be a kidnap then charges would be filed. In this conservative town they probably didn’t want to alarm the populace either and if it was Z then the media would come in, etc.

Next did the stranger or Z to some move the wagon and why?

Sorry for my scattered posts, but a lot of interruptions keep coming at work , and I have had to race through these. Just trying to help here.

Sorry for my scattered posts, but a lot of interruptions keep coming at work , and I have had to race through these. Just trying to help here.

Thank you bruce3, you have always been very helpful in the Z case. Thank goodness you were able to talk to her and get the true story. I have read reports that I have given to the police in the past,facts were missing . So now I ask LE please record my reports, that way nothing is left out and they can review my statements.

I read that some friends of K.J. remember her talking about the night she was abducted and it was always the same,it never changed.

Yes Sandy true.

The nuts and bolts of the burned wagon.
KJ knew her wagon was either on the freeway as she wanted to get off of 132 as it was dark and little to no traffic, and she thought she really did have a mechanical issue,she wanted on the 5 freeway where she felt was much safer to some degree.When they told her the vehicle was found burned on Bird Rd. she was surprised, but ,of course, did not know this area well enough to debate the issue. Besides she was traumatized at the time,7 months pregnant with an infant.
I am fully aware of the wagon’s place or position after the incident, and that some do not believe Z moved the wagon to burn it.
I will show why it was possible that the wagon was moved; but ,of course ,as always it’s open for others to debate this. It doesn’t make sense to us why he would move the wagon, and or even burn it, but I think if we entertain the mind of a psychopath it makes more sense in his way of thinking -not ours! I think it’s a fatal error in assessing a psychopath’s thinking processes to transpose that into our mode of thinking, and say ,well, why would he do that- it makes no sense whatsoever or I would not do that or no one does that, etc.
Kathleen had worked with mentally ill people and she thought the driver was ‘mentally ill’ -she had no doubt whatsoever; and she spent more time with Z(for those who believe it was Z as I do) than anyone else, including we posters some 44 years removed from the scene!

The tow driver a man named Reed went to the burned out wagon and saw that the"… right rear wheel had only two lug bolts on it, and both of these bolts were very loose. Mr.Reed advised that he took two of the lug bolts from the right front wheel and put them on the back

wheel and tightened the lug bolts up…"and he towed the wagon to his shop.

Dep.Lovett "… checked the rear wheel,namely the right on it was one lug bolt ,nearly tight,another lug bolt loose and the
other three lug bolts completely missing ." Also, the hub cap was ‘gone’. This cap was later ‘recovered’ and turned in for ‘latents.’ I have not found any info on this or whether or not any were even found.

I asked a retired automotive engineer with some 30 years of experience about all this. He said he has driven cars with only one lug on a wheel! In this case it was probably two just enough to get him to Bird Rd. The other lugs were never found. It was very easy for Z to have done this or even have two lugs on that right rear wheel-it’s just you don’t drive 65 miles an hour’ doing circles, but it can be done to his certain knowledge. He said ‘no problem. ‘ He said he probably tossed the cap in the back of the wagon then when he got to Bird Rd. tossed it to one side maybe as a ‘fake clue. ‘We know Z said he left’ fake clues (by wiping down the cab-indicating he may have left prints in the mind of the police, but he says that his prints were ‘coated’)for the police to run all over town’ checking on prints, etc. He could easily have wiped the hub cap down as he did Stine’s cab. He was in a rush that night so this may have factored in. I have heard the lug bolts used as an argument for Z not driving the vehicle anywhere. According to my auto engineer that does not hold up whatsoever. He was firm on this.

As to the wheel being off in the first place Kathleen told me with conviction for certain she saw the right rear wheel laying on the side or ‘ditch’ of the road in ‘some weeds’ as she recalled. Why put the wheel on unless you wish to drive the vehicle?
and using two lugs can mean you are in a hurry.
If the wagon was close to the 5 with traffic and CHP patrolling it would be better to move the wagon to a more remote road as you would have to get an accelerant from your car and make a wick of sorts and set it on fire possibly using a long cloth ‘wick’ in the gas tank so you can leave while its burning then catch the vehicle on fire. He could be well out of the way be time the vehicle itself caught on fire. He no doubt splashed gasoline(?)inside the wagon it seems as Kathleen said she returned to the vehicle the next day where it was towed (Reed and Sons)and inside was all burned up she tried to salvage something. but all was burned. Possibly out of anger by her escape and to destroy any prints or evidence of any kind he may have left ? He leaned on her door at one point as well as went in to get her keys before they drove off in his car. She may have started the vehicle by putting two wires together as has been reported ,but she had house keys, and other keys too on the ring. He switched off her lights.

Now,as to Z saying ‘I burned the car where I found them’ is easily explained by this was Z’s way of estimating that it was in the general area where he first found KJ. He does this in his letters in places. For one example, he said he killed a cab driver "over by" then gives names of the two streets.

Was the driver and stranger Z? Debates fly so I just give my own opinion.
Z did write that it was he that gave that ‘interesting’ ride with Johns and he infant. Imagine such an ego being ‘defeated’ by a "woeman"- a pregnant one at that and carrying a child as she ran from his car! This would be a reason if it was not him to not mention this incident ,but he did, and saying in effect she won’t be so lucky the next time as she is first on my little death list’ of victims ! He includes the infant which gives validity to Johns saying he wanted to toss the baby out of the car!
Did Z do this before? Yes,when he mentioned MM in a letter. He says how he shot him and what he was doing to evade his aim;even trying to shoot him in the head(as he did Faraday and Stine!). So we know even though a victim escaped his attempt to kill them he will write about it in a letter as he did Johns who escaped from him. It seems he burned her wagon to get back at her too. Z from his letter was vindictive and even wrote of ‘punishing’ people if they did not meet his demands, etc. Another words he was into’ substitution’- like in this case burning her vehicle as that was all he could do to her then. Z from his crimes and letters was into getting as much ‘publicity’ as he could and burning her wagon was probably part of that. We don’t know what was going on in his life then, but he didn’t boast about the attack since he said Nov.69 he wasn’t going to name Z victims any long,etc. Perhaps he was concerned KJ could ID him . But,he wanted to show he was still active since there was talk he was ‘quiet-‘so this may have driven him to speak when he did. Z had been ‘silent’ before, but wrote a "note" Jan.74.

If Mike Rodelli an intelligent Z researcher is correct, Z had given in cryptic form-not unlike Z to do this- that he was planning some sort of "bad news"on 132! In his 11/8/69 card Z writes, "…when I am ignored,so lonely I could do my Thing!!!!!!"

Rodelli turned the card upside down as it were and counted the ‘dots’ at the bottom of the exclamation marks 1-3-2 !
Doing his thing was murderer. He said that they as to the "bad NEWS"(has to be a death) would "not get the news for a while yet." It would be about ( Z time element) 4 months until 3/22/70. Note there are 6 lines under "Thing" and 6 exclamation marks.
The NEXT solstice was March 22 ’70 and it was a full moon so not unlike a ‘Zodiac’ attack period ! I think he was ‘cruzing’ for anyone on 132 that day found Stine’s sister first, which did not work, and then he spotted KJ on 132 do pursued her. If the man seen’ waving’ down those ‘two men’ by 132 in the report was Z then perhaps he was trying to kill someone and those two males he passed by would not exempt.

More later:

Dress your best…

From Kathleen’s description of her abductor it seems to match or come close to Z’s -and remembering at that time she knew nothing about Z or what he looked like,etc. She told me she listened to the radio, mostly music, and TV just shows she liked. She was ‘not into the news.’

While on the drive Kathleen noticed the driver’s shoes as there was a dim light underneath the dash. The shoes looked like Navy shoes that were ‘spit -shined’ as they were so ‘shiny.’ She had no way of knowing, but the shoe prints at RS were military dress shoes that were, of course, shiny in appearance!
The dark nylon jacket and dark loose fitting slacks are reminiscent of PH and LB. He wore a crew cut which witnesses saw at PH. His hair was dark brown according to Kathleen. This color matches to BH at LB and the original description in composite I.
He wore dark rimmed glasses’ like superman’ said KJ. This what Z wore at PH and possibly BRS as MM said in an interview he was sure the attacker was ‘wearing glasses.’ Due to state of mind over the years I have an FYI My lawyer witness said in a printed statement on my site the man he saw at LHR 12/20/68 was wearing glasses, and had short hair.
What all witnesses missed was the acne scars around her abductor’s chin. She was with him closer and longer than any other witness. I feel this ID point of ‘acne scars’, and where they were is crucial.
His voice was monotone she told me just flat with no emotion as per, Hartnell, Slaight,and Slover.

Keep in mind it was a nervous glance up on the wall as she was talking to the Sgt. of that Patterson substation that Kathleen spotted the Z poster, and she told me it really did look like the man who had abducted her. She became "hysterical" when told it was a wanted poster of the Zodiac killer. Her emphasis to me that day it was the ‘second drawing’ that to her seemed ‘more like’ the man who drove her about that night.
So yet another item that moves one forward to it being Z, but for some not so which is fine ,of course.

Sabotaging John’s wagon is reminiscent of CJB at RS as her car was sabotaged in order to get her to go with him. He may have been wearing the same Navy type shiny dress shoes at both scenes!
She said he was neat and clean cut. I think we can say the same for Z at PH. He spoke to her before she drove off. The man seen talking to a young blond female at RS library may have been talking to CJB and this may be one reason she was open to his help having spoken to him before. He may have told her in the library if it was Cheri-he was an off -duty MP at March AFB, and wearing those dress shoes this may have been an influence. John’s said the way in which her stranger was dressed -neat and clean cut with a military appearance gave her some confidence in him. He probably seemed friendly and eager to help Cheri just as the stranger did with Kathleen at 132.

Some posters have Z in a Zox and they can’t think outside of it! He was well capable of any and all approaches, I believe, as they all gave him a sense of power and control. He did write,’ I shall no longer announce who he had killed but make them look like fake accidents, routine robberies,killings of anger ,etc. It’s the "etc." that was troubling to me. He had lots of ideas on how to take human life. Perhaps when he wrote "fake accidents" he may have planned to set some victim’s car on fire out on 132 with them in the car! Johns may have foiled such a plan.

If Z did drugs like I think he did this may account for some of his erratic behavior too. Being psychopathic, of course, is more than enough to engage in the ‘activities’ that he did. He called Cheri’s murder a mere ‘activity!’

Then Kathleen revealed to us that she received a Halloween card in 1970. In it the writer I’d the correct kind of vehicle and color as this was not known to the public ,and probably spelled woman as "woeman"- all to verify it was him and to gain publicity as he probably thought she would turn the card in and it would be printed in the media. Two Halloween cards in one month would be great PR! This links to z. And she said she got some threatening calls from the stranger in which he was abusive. This would make sense as he was probably angry she had escaped from him. We know Z made calls.
some have said Z never sent cards or letters to an individual. Melvin Belli got a letter from Z at his office! Jospeh Bates got a note at RS. Also that he made abusive calls to others than the police.
Chrisitna, Darlene Ferrin’s younger sister ,told us the same day as our interview with Johns- that she got a few abusive calls which she believed were from the killer. Chris said she was ‘followed’ while living in San Diego, CA.(the Zodiac astrology page which Dave Peterson believed was from Z mentions a plane flight 555- it was later found to go daily to San Diego FYI) she and her Navy husband went to the military police, but nothing ever came of it. When they moved to the South it all stopped.

I personally think it is warranted to include KJ as a Z victim, but I know that is not possible. I just think there is enough here in this case to at least presume to some degree it was Z. This is why most Z sites -as does this one -use the word a "possible" Z victim.

After seeing two sets of photos of Z suspects Kathleen picked out two men Larry Kane or Cane (through former officer Hines)and Bruce Davis which included a newsreel footage with him speaking with a crew cut in 1970. She told me she very much wanted to go to the prison to see him, and even speak to him! She was very emotional when she saw his pictures and film along with hearing his voice. She said his profile picture was almost identical to the man she saw. She said mostly she saw his profile as he drove. She told us she had to support Hines as he was the first to really approach her his suspect, etc.
I did tell her my POI had scars on his chin which were even mentioned then as sores over his chin area in the book My Life with Charles Manson. One photo of BD taken in the 80’s these scars can be seen.

One other thing that is little known was that hypnosis was attempted on Kathleen years before our interview. She had most likely seen the car plates (old CA plates black and yellow)was terminated. I have researched hypnosis and used it on a number of occasions to demonstrate it.You don’t take someone to their childhood as in this case because it may have been traumatic, etc. In John’s case it was a terrible time for her growing up, and she became so emotional she could not continue on. Even with this after my explanation of hypnosis she was wiling to try again as she said she only wanted to help when she could. Just wished she had not passed away. I felt terrible about it and for her family.

Hope all this helps. Excuse mistakes, etc, just had to squeeze it all in at work.

Rodelli turned the card upside down as it were and counted the ‘dots’ at the bottom of the exclamation marks 1-3-2 !
Doing his thing was murderer. He said that they as to the "bad NEWS"(has to be a death) would "not get the news for a while yet." It would be about ( Z time element) 4 months until 3/22/70. Note there are 6 lines under "Thing" and 6 exclamation marks.
The NEXT solstice was March 22 ’70 and it was a full moon so not unlike a ‘Zodiac’ attack period ! I think he was ‘cruzing’ for anyone on 132 that day found Stine’s sister first, which did not work, and then he spotted KJ on 132 do pursued her. If the man seen’ waving’ down those ‘two men’ by 132 in the report was Z then perhaps he was trying to kill someone and those two males he passed by would not exempt.

More later:

If this was pre-planned that long in advance, he must have been one lucky dude to come across Paul’s sister–Carol.

***

I believe also, the hub cap that had fallen off of the wheel was found in the location her car was found burned. It would seem that indicates the car was found in the same area where it all began. Also, Kathleen mentions being able to look over the man’s shoulder and see the gas station in the distance. She would not have been able to do so on the east side of Hwy 5.

I BELIEVE Kathleen, always have, but even she admits she wasn’t super clear as to where she was. Add that to Zodiac’s story mimicking the Chronicle’s and it’s good reason to doubt this man was Zodiac. It’s too bad he didn’t write about the incident prior to it being publicized.

While I don’t agree with everything this guy says, he does share some of my feelings in regards to this incident: http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/kathleen_johns.html

Dress your best…

From Kathleen’s description of her abductor it seems to match or come close to Z’s -and remembering at that time she knew nothing about Z or what he looked like,etc. She told me she listened to the radio, mostly music, and TV just shows she liked. She was ‘not into the news.’

While on the drive Kathleen noticed the driver’s shoes as there was a dim light underneath the dash. The shoes looked like Navy shoes that were ‘spit -shined’ as they were so ‘shiny.’ She had no way of knowing, but the shoe prints at RS were military dress shoes that were, of course, shiny in appearance!
The dark nylon jacket and dark loose fitting slacks are reminiscent of PH and LB. He wore a crew cut which witnesses saw at PH. His hair was dark brown according to Kathleen. This color matches to BH at LB and the original description in composite I.
He wore dark rimmed glasses’ like superman’ said KJ. This what Z wore at PH and possibly BRS as MM said in an interview he was sure the attacker was ‘wearing glasses.’ Due to state of mind over the years I have an FYI My lawyer witness said in a printed statement on my site the man he saw at LHR 12/20/68 was wearing glasses, and had short hair.
What all witnesses missed was the acne scars around her abductor’s chin. She was with him closer and longer than any other witness. I feel this ID point of ‘acne scars’, and where they were is crucial.
His voice was monotone she told me just flat with no emotion as per, Hartnell, Slaight,and Slover.

Keep in mind it was a nervous glance up on the wall as she was talking to the Sgt. of that Patterson substation that Kathleen spotted the Z poster, and she told me it really did look like the man who had abducted her. She became "hysterical" when told it was a wanted poster of the Zodiac killer. Her emphasis to me that day it was the ‘second drawing’ that to her seemed ‘more like’ the man who drove her about that night.
So yet another item that moves one forward to it being Z, but for some not so which is fine ,of course.

Sabotaging John’s wagon is reminiscent of CJB at RS as her car was sabotaged in order to get her to go with him. He may have been wearing the same Navy type shiny dress shoes at both scenes!
She said he was neat and clean cut. I think we can say the same for Z at PH. He spoke to her before she drove off. The man seen talking to a young blond female at RS library may have been talking to CJB and this may be one reason she was open to his help having spoken to him before. He may have told her in the library if it was Cheri-he was an off -duty MP at March AFB, and wearing those dress shoes this may have been an influence. John’s said the way in which her stranger was dressed -neat and clean cut with a military appearance gave her some confidence in him. He probably seemed friendly and eager to help Cheri just as the stranger did with Kathleen at 132.

Some posters have Z in a Zox and they can’t think outside of it! He was well capable of any and all approaches, I believe, as they all gave him a sense of power and control. He did write,’ I shall no longer announce who he had killed but make them look like fake accidents, routine robberies,killings of anger ,etc. It’s the "etc." that was troubling to me. He had lots of ideas on how to take human life. Perhaps when he wrote "fake accidents" he may have planned to set some victim’s car on fire out on 132 with them in the car! Johns may have foiled such a plan.

If Z did drugs like I think he did this may account for some of his erratic behavior too. Being psychopathic, of course, is more than enough to engage in the ‘activities’ that he did. He called Cheri’s murder a mere ‘activity!’

Then Kathleen revealed to us that she received a Halloween card in 1970. In it the writer I’d the correct kind of vehicle and color as this was not known to the public ,and probably spelled woman as "woeman"- all to verify it was him and to gain publicity as he probably thought she would turn the card in and it would be printed in the media. Two Halloween cards in one month would be great PR! This links to z. And she said she got some threatening calls from the stranger in which he was abusive. This would make sense as he was probably angry she had escaped from him. We know Z made calls.
some have said Z never sent cards or letters to an individual. Melvin Belli got a letter from Z at his office! Jospeh Bates got a note at RS. Also that he made abusive calls to others than the police.
Chrisitna, Darlene Ferrin’s younger sister ,told us the same day as our interview with Johns- that she got a few abusive calls which she believed were from the killer. Chris said she was ‘followed’ while living in San Diego, CA.(the Zodiac astrology page which Dave Peterson believed was from Z mentions a plane flight 555- it was later found to go daily to San Diego FYI) she and her Navy husband went to the military police, but nothing ever came of it. When they moved to the South it all stopped.

I personally think it is warranted to include KJ as a Z victim, but I know that is not possible. I just think there is enough here in this case to at least presume to some degree it was Z. This is why most Z sites -as does this one -use the word a "possible" Z victim.

After seeing two sets of photos of Z suspects Kathleen picked out two men Larry Kane or Cane (through former officer Hines)and Bruce Davis which included a newsreel footage with him speaking with a crew cut in 1970. She told me she very much wanted to go to the prison to see him, and even speak to him! She was very emotional when she saw his pictures and film along with hearing his voice. She said his profile picture was almost identical to the man she saw. She said mostly she saw his profile as he drove. She told us she had to support Hines as he was the first to really approach her his suspect, etc.
I did tell her my POI had scars on his chin which were even mentioned then as sores over his chin area in the book My Life with Charles Manson. One photo of BD taken in the 80’s these scars can be seen.

One other thing that is little known was that hypnosis was attempted on Kathleen years before our interview. She had most likely seen the car plates (old CA plates black and yellow)was terminated. I have researched hypnosis and used it on a number of occasions to demonstrate it.You don’t take someone to their childhood as in this case because it may have been traumatic, etc. In John’s case it was a terrible time for her growing up, and she became so emotional she could not continue on. Even with this after my explanation of hypnosis she was wiling to try again as she said she only wanted to help when she could. Just wished she had not passed away. I felt terrible about it and for her family.

Hope all this helps. Excuse mistakes, etc, just had to squeeze it all in at work.

Thanks Howard,
Great Post, as they always are well thought out, and totally make be visualize that night. It has Z written all over it.

Sorry….adding to my post above:

After seeing two sets of photos of Z suspects Kathleen picked out two men Larry Kane or Cane (through former officer Hines)and Bruce Davis which included a newsreel footage with him speaking with a crew cut in 1970.

In the recording you so generously provided, Kathleen clearly states (after viewing the photos you showed her of Bruce Davis) that he was not the man she was with that horrible evening. She held strong to that conviction as she was questioned about Davis.

Obviously she changed her mind when showed different images of him at a later date, but as you mentioned, she stated the man was Larry Kane at one point as well.

My point being…it would appear she simply had an image in her mind of what the man looked like as it clearly wasn’t both of these men…and quite possibly, neither of them. So, a positive I.D. would then become questionable.

Or the man Kathleen was with that evening looked somewhat like Bruce D or Larry Kane. I’m in the camp that believes Kathleen
took a ride with the Killer. Only if you ever had a babe in arms, and have been pregnant, would you understand that this woman
would not have the damned time to create a scam, burn her own car, make a false police report, all for no reason at all. It’s probably
best if we all step back and observe, look for clues, and evidence. No need to assail potential victims.
What ever happened to Kathleen’s baby, the one she saved that night?

Exactly my point about making a positive I.D. How does that happen now if she has fingered two different men?

Who is assailing potential victims?

Her children are alive and well.

Wasn’t going to post anymore don’t need the stress; but I decided I am going to continue on this one.http://members.aol.com/Jakewark/rodelli.htm l”> http://web.archive.org/web/200802140416 … delli.html

Carol Stine( who by all accounts is ‘very articulate and intelligent’) traveled 132 "many, many times" as she has said and the roads in the area where Johns was accosted. Her mother’s B Day was March 19th. So she made this trip her annual pilgrimage to visit her mother. So it’s March 1970 (FOUR months-a Z time table deal- after that ‘Dripping Pen’ card Nov.69 -see link above)and she encounters a man in a car indicating or telling her she has a faulty wheel or some such ruse. She continues on but he tries again to get her to pull over ,but her ‘car was powerful’ and she sped away. Now, going back to the Turlock Journal 10/23/69 and the S.F. Chronicle for that same time period (so Z could easily have seen and/ or heard about this article) Joe Stine Paul’s brother issues a direct challenge to the Zodiac to fight him man to man!

Then in November of 1969 less than a month later in comes the Z Pen card with the ‘1-3-2’ marks! Again, see link above.
From all that we know about Z and other serial killers is that they do stalk victims even knowing their routines, etc. I have researched this fact. Some find out where their victim works where they live as well any family members. This varies, of course.
Z knew where Joseph Bates lived and sent him a note in ’67. Z knew about Belli’s office and sent him a "Christmass" greeting letter asking for legal ‘help’. He may have sent a Christmas card to the address of the older sister of Donna lass in 1974.

Remember, Z is a psychopath- not a normal minded poster far removed from this kind of activity and murder for media ‘space’ in 2014! Z having time on his hands and considering the public and fearing the police may have been behind it so as to entrap him into attacking Stine. It must have sounded very fishy to paranoid Z that a man on a bike would issue a public challenge to a proven killer who used guns (and knives )to murder people ! The Stine challenged his massive ego and the fact he kills for ‘publicity’ value, etc ; he finds that his victim Paul Stine has a sister and that she goes to her mothers each March. Z was into substitution as I brought out. I will kill this or that person but I am punishing ‘you people’ for not wearing his button or the entire North Bay Area! And if this is not crazy what is? If Z was into astrology and there are indications he was- he even called himself the "Zodiac"-he finds the next solstice is in March of 1970. Dave Peterson who was an expert on these matters believed Zodiac’s symbol ‘bars’ depicts each of the four solstice points.
Z checks for a full moon and finds it about middle of March. So maybe he deems this an auspicious time to attack Carol on 132 while making her yearly trip to Modesto. Also, we do not know all that was going on in Z’s life; so several factors could have governed when he would attack.
But waiting until March ’70 would be when Stine’s own sister would be on the road or 132! Z called this "bad news" in his card and broadly hinted it would be a time to "do his Thing" i.e. murder which was written in very dark lettering and underlined 6 times!
Z was into codes and symbolic thinking so not unusual for him to be cryptic in this goofy card.
Be abnormal for a minute and think how excited Z would be contemplating killing the sister of Paul Stine!!! Think what great press that would be! This was a man who wrote ‘if you don’t print this in your paper I will kill someone.’ He murdered innocent young people in cold blood and boasted about it to the Editor!!! He stabbed a couple at LB and on and on.
No telling how many he really did kill. He was mean and very vicious.

I think since he failed with Carol he decided night was better ran across Kathleen Johns a young blond driving alone or so it appeared at night and this time a female driving an old slow moving station wagon and decided to use a ruse on her and it worked!
PD report then he may have been attempting to kill them. But, they refused to stop driving on 132 near 580 and 33. Z was not adverse to killing males. It was only after reading about Johns on the 23d of March did they make an attempt to report it. They left after that.

This is to answer as a possibility that Z did target. So Z was not some ‘lucky dude’-gez- that ‘waited’ around four months to pull off his attack and it just happened to be Paul Stine’s sister as his victim!. He had other things like anyone else going on. It would not mean he was pacing around for four months!
Some would say this is unusual. BUT the ENTIRE Z case IS crazy and ‘unusual’-to the max! This is one of the reasons so many are attracted to this very, very bizarre case!

To him as a psychopathic killer it would be a’ future plan’ is all-much like any of us planning a trip!

After carefully going over all aspects of the Johns case since 1987 and speaking to her I feel there is more evidence that leads to Z than away from it! Unless one has a dedicated mind to doubt and is skeptical which usually leads to the same mind set, and more doubt/skepticism! Those who know how the subconscious mind operates knows this fact. Doubt breeds more doubt, and things usually stay the same for such persons.

In history it’s been those who were willing to achieve great inventions and do things because they were not doubters, but forged ahead, and accomplished great things that the doubters said were not true or impossible!

We have posters who do not believe Z killed at LHR,LB and even doubt BRS, etc. when most of the evidence points in that direction. They don’t believe that Z wrote the Halloween card for example,even though the mass of evidence and experts/LE all point to it!

This story illustrates my point:
A boy trained a dog to walk on water. It took years! Then one day he saw the town skeptic fishing. He shot a duck and the dog ran out on top of the water and brought it back to the boy. This happened 7 times as the skeptic watched carefully knowing it was over 30 feet of water there. Then the boy went over to the man and asked him, "Did you see anything different about my dog?. After a very long pause the man said," Yeah I did …he can’t swim!!!"

As to Z suspects she said that ‘several photos'(not just two!) were sent to her through the Sheriffs Dept. None of them looked like the abductor and seemed ‘too old’ to be the man she saw. She told me the ‘closest were Kane/Cain and Davis whom she saw later on. Does it prove either man was Z? No. just FYI

bruce3–

You offer interesting points, but it becomes a negative when you feel you have to psycho analyze others mental capacities when they have a difference of opinion.

Being skeptical can also be a good thing when doing research. We don’t just "accept" the fact the everything is Zodiac, so we scrutinize more.

What is it called when one believes everything they read and hear?

Discussion is a good thing, but please, let’s not repeat this same stuff over and over, and continue bringing up that it is some sort of mental disease because we aren’t all on the same page.