As to that poor hub cap. Some think that it proves Z did not move the Wagon because the hub cap was found in the proximity of John’s wagon. It would be ‘strange’ or almost’ inconceivable'(as if a psychopath was normal !) that Z would take the cap in the vehicle then when the wagon was moved and parked lay the cap near by. But, no ones posting about the right rear tire!
Was it still on the wagon when police as well as the tow person arrived? Yes, held in place by two bolts with three lug bolts missing. Why would Z put the wheel back on the vehicle if he did not move it? Why? What did he do with the missing lugs?

These were things my auto engineer took into consideration. Z wants to get the vehicle way from the freeway as best he can quickly so he puts just two lug nuts on. He said you can drive a car with ‘one lug nut’ as he had done so before.Z drives the wagon about 3/4 of a mile-not far, but away from that freeway with CHP,etc. Then pours gasoline(?)-the most logical accelerant, in the wagon as ‘vengeance’ and to eliminate any evidence, etc. Makes a wick which he places in the gas tank or near the vehicle gets ready to fell and lights it giving him time to get out of the area. Z knows be time the police even find this wagon he will be gone.
He knew it would take time to even find an officer(true someone had to drive around looking for one at first at Westley she said then they drove further down the highway to the Patterson turn off and eventually found a small station in Patterson. And out in that rural farm area at night then how could she pinpoint the exact place where the wagon was left ? If he moved it to a different place then it may take more time to locate it. This is what happened as per Johns. She said they found it on ‘another road.’
Look at all the time Z wasted at Stine’s cab knowing anyone, including the police, could have driven down that street seen the crimes, etc. He would be correct as the three teens did see and report it. He was a great risk taker, no doubt about it.
See the tight timeline at LHR.OMG What a risk he took there too.
Anyway,he torches it or the wick and is gone. I do know in those kinds of area sometimes the farmer light smudge pots which let off a fiery glow in the distance so anyone seeing the fire in the dark at a distance could possibly think it was a smudge pot burning due to the cold weather and the trees/crops/grape vines etc…FYI Z had lots of time. I went over the timeline and it gives him time to do what he did.
But wait! Did Z have to go back to his car which would not be that far away? My engineer said he has done this many times in that all Z had to do was tie his rear bumper with her front bumper and since he did not go that far it would be easy in his estimate to simply tow her wagon. I have towed cars in this manner several times over the years and much farther than the distance we are discussing.
Now back to the cap. After putting the tire back on with those two lug bolts-one fairly tight(probably tighter, but loosened during short drive- the other loose nut which could have loosened even more as per the engineer) Z in a rush picks up the cap knowing it may have his prints on it when he first loosened the lug bolts to sabotage the vehicle; and it being chrome which hold prints and/or for a ‘fake clue’ tosses it in the back easy. When he is parked takes the cap and wipes it down as he did at Stine’s cab then tosses it aside where it is found.
I am bringing all this up to show why it was possible for Z to have moved her wagon and that the cap does not have to invalidate that claim. Where were those three other lug bolts?

You have to be crazy to do al this .YES, Z was crazy-very much so!

You misunderstand my points and that’s fine.

It is nice to hear you report the facts as told to you by Kathleen Johns. It has ALWAYS been appreciated by me. I only question the man being Zodiac. Kathleen was one tough lady and I believe she stated things as she remembered and when she didn’t…she stated that too.

You stated this here and I couldn’t agree more:

…I think it’s a fatal error in assessing a psychopath’s thinking processes to transpose that into our mode of thinking, and say ,well, why would he do that- it makes no sense whatsoever or I would not do that or no one does that, etc.

When someone takes anything to the extreme on any given subject on a board we should take note of that. You are saying what everybody knows and we do not just’ accept everything,’ but again, when it’s to the extreme as to constant doubt, more doubt,criticism of the issues, etc.; over and over with the same mind set never coming to a definitive point-I wonder why that poster would even be interested in Z-if indeed he even existed lol! Some do believe that too.

Some have harped and cajoled Kathleen and her abduction account. But, there are a legion of very good reasons why we move her more towards a Z event than in the other direction. All they do is express negativity and doubt. I am showing in great detail their arguments do not really hold up,and that do not offer solutions . It is not enough to point out,for example, in those very poorly done PD reports to say ‘see she changed her story,’etc.
After you research all the factors involved their fallacies are clearly not good points at all and we still hear ‘yer dog can’t swim! ‘

In psychology there is what we call a ‘contrarian personality’ wherein the individual takes the opposite view on most whatever is given. It is habitual and yes it is a ‘disorder’ -not deep pathology, of course. Maybe a parent told them don’t trust- doubt everything, etc. This went into the neutral subconscious mind which magnifies and is inductive-operates out of habit -it doesn’t reason, weigh, and ponder per se. So that person is a born again skeptic which I believe discourages impressions or hunches, creativity (the literature is full of inventors and scientist that followed up on impression’s or ‘thought flashes’ as I call them and develop positive things-they weren’t professional doubters) for the subconscious.
These kinds of negative skeptical people don’t invent an electric light ,phonograph,etc.,as did Edison who was really open minded and creative and reached out not seeing that blasted ‘ box. ‘He didn’t even see a box!
I was told by some 5 chemists I could not develop cold processing of various ingredients. It took three years but I did it as I am not a doubter- I believe and that you can then achieve. They say nothing when I send them proof of my products. Typical.
It was the doubters and the critics I read about in biographies that no one remembers now!!!
Just my take on negative doubting mind sets.

Wow. You just don’t let up.

Thanks for your opinion "doc".

Funny how some of the most bizarre theories get thrown out there, even by you, yet we who have doubt this man was Zodiac get to read your posts as to why our mind behaves this way. Please! Stop already. You don’t see people here getting all psychological with your brain as to your Manson theories. I have never gotten personal with your mindset because you have different beliefs.

State what you believe in regards to the case, but stop throwing this "contrarian" issue out there.

Zodiac was never proven to be Kathleen’s abductor, by you or anyone else. That’s just the way it is.

Howard, unless your PhD in Philosophy suddenly turned into a PhD in Psychology, I really don’t know what makes you think your arm-chair diagnoses of people are valid. Even a trained psychologist or psychoanalyst would be reluctant to assert that someone had a certain mental disorder based on the person’s wanting facts and verification before agreeing with another person’s opinion that something is true.

Also, I don’t know why you assume people who exhibit skepticism regarding unproven aspects of the Zodiac case are also skeptical about what can and cannot be achieved in various fields such as science.

If you want to take things on faith, make assumptions about various aspects of the Zodiac case, etc. that is your right and no one should call you names or say you have psychological problems. if others prefer to not take things on faith or make the same assumptions you do, that is their right and no one should call them names or say they have mental disorders.

In the past Butterfield and some others make a lot of negative remarks about you and your theory, called you names, and you did not like it. I am surprised to see you resorting to the same behavior just because someone wants more proof before believing certain things.

Can we please get back on track? We are all adults, surely we can stay civil. If people want to disagree or have healthy debate, that’s all well, but staying civil and not resorting to bickering,etc is important.

Well stated morph. Sorry. I just stated my views on some in the Z field without using names. I am just expressing what many others feel.

Can we please get back on track? We are all adults, surely we can stay civil. If people want to disagree or have healthy debate, that’s all well, but staying civil and not resorting to bickering,etc is important.

Wouldn’t that be lovely if we could just have friendly debates without getting personal? Many have feelings about others beliefs or mindsets…we don’t need to hash it out online.

Just a little input

Wheter the man who kidnapped KJ was the Zodiac or not, well I don´t know for sure of course, but my personal opinion is that it was the Zodiac killer.

But more important, I have listened to ALL the many CDs (cant´t remember but I think it was 6 or 7 of them) of the interview with KJ, and my
impression of KJ was that she was INDEED truthfull, honest, and sympathic, she did in NO way whatsoever come across as somone who wanted her 15 minutes of fame or anything like that.

And just FYI…I have a congenital and VERY strong bullshit-detector

…I have listened to ALL the many CDs (cant´t remember but I think it was 6 or 7 of them) of the interview with KJ, and my impression of KJ was that she was INDEED truthfull, honest, and sympathic, she did in NO way whatsoever come across as somone who wanted her 15 minutes of fame or anything like that.

And just FYI…I have a congenital and VERY strong bullshit-detector

I couldn’t agree more TF.

Like I mentioned a couple of times…she seemed like a tough lady who said things as they were and wasn’t trying to sugar-coat things, or purposely make up stories, or go along with things just for the sake of doing so.

At the start of the interview she said something that would make a whole lot of people not have much faith in the rest of her memories. It actually didn’t affect me because she was so truthful about everything else. She was the real deal, stating things simply as she remembered it, imo.

Good TF!
Funny about your BS detector!

Z himself wrote 7/24/70 (4 mos.later a Z time 4 mo. gap) he took ‘Johns- "woeman"(just wish we had that Oct.’70 Halloween card Z sent to KJ to see spelling as he addressed her as the ‘woman in the station wagon’ even giving the color which was not mentioned in the media at all-she said this is how she knew for certain it was the same man who abducted her)and her infant on an ‘interesting 2 hower ride one evening…’
Z is not going to admit to a botch job of that proportion after all of his boasts to the media, and police -I mean a pregnant female holding a child actually gets away from him unless he really did encounter Johns as given!!!

Z never as can be shown claimed someone else’ murders or crimes. Just the opposite from all we know. He wrote that it was hoped ‘no one would think that he killed an officer in a bomb blast’ at a police station of all places ,and after writing about a bomb, etc. It would’ never do’ he wrote to claim someone else’s ‘territory’ or crimes , and claim it as his own. It would have been very easy and believable by the police and public to do so here. It was a policeman of Sgt rank, and in a police station of all Z places of scorn-and he had written about his bomb and desire to set one off ,etc., before -so perfect; but he would not claim it, but rather he disclaimed it!
But, not with Johns- a real, as I said botch job, with a very easy vulnerable victim, which would not in any way be a challenge to him !!!

An example of a failed murder,and Z : Zodiac admitted in print he attacked MM too, but failed to kill him. MM was in- not only an enclosed place– but a very small one at that, and Z was still not able to kill him even at such close range and after pumping him full of bullets-yet he told the public and police it was he that did the shooting!!! Don’t forget he used a 9MM too!

Those who say Z simply claimed KJ will have to come with more than well, ‘he took his info from the media story,’ etc. He had to show proof. Who says?
How many serial killers show evidence or proof of their murders. How many even write letters? But, maybe his ‘proof’ was that card and spelling/wording/color and type of vehicle, which somehow got lost?

I have noted over the years when Z would give the ‘ proof’ (which has been demanded by some posters, for say Bates or Johns, or even LHR, etc.)in his letters, like minute details of the murders- posters that didn’t accept those crimes as a Z would post, ‘Oh he could have gotten those details and info from the media or police sources!!!’

What I am saying it is a frustrating mind set-this has been what I am trying to get over. In spite of everything they will not or do not accept it as a Z. That’s all.

I know people you say its a nice day or whatever they take the opposite view. It amazes me, but that’s how it is so we go on.

We get it.

I ‘doubt’ that lol

Howard, maybe you need to recite the Serenity Prayer every time you read a post that expresses views that don’t support your beliefs instead of making the same long rambling posts about your frustration?

Some people believe it was the Zodiac that abducted Johns, while other people are not convinced. I, for one, am not convinced. Do you see me or others who aren’t convinced making posts that give digs to you because you do believe Zodiac was Johns’ abductor?

TF, as for the BS comment, I don’t know where that came from. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread saying that they think Johns lied, just that they are not willing to conclude Zodiac was her abductor.