The map Grinell posted on his website puts the dog walker near the opposite corner of the crime scene. The witnesses wouldn’t have seen him from that angle. Also, my understanding is that only Lindsey went outside (and Pelissetti was so hellbent on getting him back in the house that he failed to register that Zodiac was, briefly, still in sight). So the witnesses weren’t likely "milling around in the street," which would have been dangerous.

I have no idea if the 5 minute walk estimate (based on reconstructed timelines) for Pelissetti is accurate, since Pel apparently has trouble deciding where he actually encountered the dog walker, among other factors.

According to Google Maps, it’s about a 4 minute walk from the taxi to KQ’s house.

There’s no factual basis for claiming that Zodiac noticed the witnesses. From his theoretical POV, the cops rolled by without indicating suspicion — why assume things would be different if they saw him again? He didn’t know they were looking for a black guy.

The map Grinell posted on his website puts the dog walker near the opposite corner of the crime scene. The witnesses wouldn’t have seen him from that angle. Also, my understanding is that only Lindsey went outside (and Pelissetti was so hellbent on getting him back in the house that he failed to register that Zodiac was, briefly, still in sight). So the witnesses weren’t likely "milling around in the street," which would have been dangerous.

I have no idea if the 5 minute walk estimate (based on reconstructed timelines) for Pelissetti is accurate, since Pel apparently has trouble deciding where he actually encountered the dog walker, among other factors.

According to Google Maps, it’s about a 4 minute walk from the taxi to KQ’s house.

There’s no factual basis for claiming that Zodiac noticed the witnesses. From his theoretical POV, the cops rolled by without indicating suspicion — why assume things would be different if they saw him again? He didn’t know they were looking for a black guy.

What Z knew is that he talked with 2 officers a block from the murder scene. If he returns to within a block of that murder scene and Zelms or Foulke stop to talk to him instead of Pelissetti, the first reason he would assume things would be different is that the policeman would’ve asked him why he had changed all his clothes and acquired a dog in such a short amount of time. Between this oddity and the fact the man had been seen shortly after the murder heading towards a nearby house, they would probably start by asking him where he lived. That would lead to a question about what he had been doing just before the murder, where he was going, why he’d gone towards that house, and if the directions of his movements didn’t make sense, then further questioning. With bloody clothes, not to mention Paul’s shirt, at his home, a search warrant would’ve nailed him easily.

The second reason things would be different is that any unconvincing answer he might give to a questioning cop might lead to an introduction with the witnesses. With Lindsey watching Z from his house, then going outside and following him for some distance, I’m thinking Z was aware of having been seen, and the threat against kids with the bus bomb letter may have been a reaction to that. If so, Z would assume the witness had described him to the police, and that the 2 cops he spoke with may have made the connection.

Z was very lucky to have escaped that night. The idea he would’ve walked right back to be questioned by the police is really a stretch in my opinion. How would he explain his movements, ducking behind a home he didn’t own or live in, quickly changing his clothes, and so on? Even if he didn’t know for certain there had been witnesses, there was certainly a good chance there had been, and 15 minutes of commotion around the cab would’ve been enough time for them to come forward. It was a populated residential area, not some remote country road.

Well, Zodiac being seen by teenagers was reported in the news, so he would have known anyway.

If the timelines are correct, Fouke had already touched base with Pelissetti, and was already speeding off to the park, by the time Pel bumped into KQ.

Obviously, there was a risk of witnesses in the city. But the only ones we know about are the Robbins and the 8 year-old. Nobody saw the actual killing, or wandered by while Zodiac was lurking (again, that we know of). So that particular location must have been fairly desolate at the time.

Now, as to Zodiac hanging around…the dog walker is still a shadowy aspect of the case — I don’t believe we know for sure what he was wearing, for example — but if KQ was Zodiac, unless someone had followed him all the way from the taxi (which clearly didn’t happen), he was covered in blood and/or failed to ditch the windbreaker (nobody knows for a fact how much blood was on him), there was zero reason to suspect the neighborhood zillionaire in a botched cab robbery. I suppose a witness could have emerged later and said, "I saw that wealthy car dealer running down the street." But all we actually got was an article claiming that a blonde guy was seen running into the park, and we’ve never been able to establish if that actually happened.

If KQ was Zodiac, he was really lucky that Fouke apparently had no idea who he was, but who knows if things would have played out much differently. While it would lend more weight to KQ being Z, by that same token, it could reinforce the not-new notion that Fouke didn’t see Zodiac.

Well, Zodiac being seen by teenagers was reported in the news, so he would have known anyway.

For the bus bomb letter, true, but the existence of witnesses would be either known (if he had seen Lindsey or his sister) or at best uncertain immediately after the murder. And therefore, risky.

If the timelines are correct, Fouke had already touched base with Pelissetti, and was already speeding off to the park, by the time Pel bumped into KQ.

Yes, that is what happened. But how could KQ, if he was Z, know he wouldn’t bump into Foulke or Zelms, who would’ve certainly recognized him from 15 minutes earlier, thus prompting the (obvious) inquiries I mention above?

Obviously, there was a risk of witnesses in the city. But the only ones we know about are the Robbins and the 8 year-old. Nobody saw the actual killing, or wandered by while Zodiac was lurking (again, that we know of). So that particular location must have been fairly desolate at the time.

Now, as to Zodiac hanging around…the dog walker is still a shadowy aspect of the case — I don’t believe we know for sure what he was wearing, for example — but if KQ was Zodiac, unless someone had followed him all the way from the taxi (which clearly didn’t happen), he was covered in blood and/or failed to ditch the windbreaker (nobody knows for a fact how much blood was on him), there was zero reason to suspect the neighborhood zillionaire in a botched cab robbery. I suppose a witness could have emerged later and said, "I saw that wealthy car dealer running down the street." But all we actually got was an article claiming that a blonde guy was seen running into the park, and we’ve never been able to establish if that actually happened.

I agree. My point is the only people KQ, if Z, had to be concerned with were officers Zelms and Foulke, and possibly witnesses who may have seen the murder, or seen him wearing the same clothes the witnesses had described. If Lindsey (a witness) describes Z’s clothes and during the time KQ is cleaning himself up, that description circulates among the officers, then Zelms and Foulke know for certain the guy they spoke with was Z. Same clothes, one block away, within 2 minutes….. if nothing else, that prompts a whole bunch of questions and possibly a search warrant when the answers don’t make sense.

If KQ was Zodiac, he was really lucky that Fouke apparently had no idea who he was, but who knows if things would have played out much differently. While it would lend more weight to KQ being Z, by that same token, it could reinforce the not-new notion that Fouke didn’t see Zodiac.

According to another thread, Zelm’s wife has said that her husband and Foulke definitely stopped and talked with Z. She is the one person who would know for sure, as her husband would have no reason to lie to her, and after her husband was killed in the line of duty, she would have no reason not to be honest about it. She had nobody to "protect".

Well (without me launching into another dissertation, plenty of debates about Fouke already), they spoke to somebody. I tend to think it was Z, though.

Toschi once made the odd comment that he felt Zodiac was watching them the entire time. I always wondered what that was about. Something Z said, something we don’t know, or "gut feeling" voodoo.

If KQ was Z, after getting back out there, what were Fouke and Zelms looking for IF Z walked up the steps to 3712? Not Zodiac. Not a serial killer. Not at the point. They were looking for someone who had robbed a cab of $8. So if they dared to question KQ as to why he did anything, he would have immediately asked them if they knew who they were speaking to and that if they didn’t bugger off, he’d call the Mayor and have their badges. In that case, there would have been no October 13th letter and no pieces of Stine’s shirt ever mailed. Z was in control at that point of whether the cops ever knew that he had committed the Stine murder. There would have been zero knowledge that it was Zodiac and nobody would have suspected KQ of having robbery of $8 as a motive. That is the reason for not disguising his face in the first place but rather disguising himself by wearing a few sweaters and appearing "barrel-chested." It allowed him to play the "I have direct line to the Mayor" card.

The better scenario is if Fouke and Zelms DID speak to the man. Then they may have asked who he was and there would have been no 3712 shenanigans in that case. He would have told them who he was and since they were only asking if he had seen anything, not if he had just killed a cad driver, he would once again have assumed he had not been seen because they dumb cops were looking for a black guy. If he went back out and they said that Zodiac looked like him, he’d go back to threatening their jobs and telling them that he had no motive to rob a cabbie since he had more money than God. Why had he changed clothes? He was planning to stay in for the night once he got home but the damn dog made a mad dash for the door, so he decided to take him out after he had changed into a robe or whatever.

And if an 8 year old or Lindsey said that is the guy, he would have ridiculed and belittled them as being mere kids who were obviously mistaken because KQ had no motive to rob a stupid cab of $8. And by the way, if they made him pose for these kids, he’d threaten to have their badges. He would have intimidated the heck out of the cops and the kids, at which he was apparently very skilled.

Mike

If KQ was Z, after getting back out there, what were Fouke and Zelms looking for IF Z walked up the steps to 3712? Not Zodiac. Not a serial killer. Not at the point. They were looking for someone who had robbed a cab of $8. So if they dared to question KQ as to why he did anything, he would have immediately asked them if they knew who they were speaking to and that if they didn’t bugger off, he’d call the Mayor and have their badges. In that case, there would have been no October 13th letter and no pieces of Stine’s shirt ever mailed. Z was in control at that point of whether the cops ever knew that he had committed the Stine murder. There would have been zero knowledge that it was Zodiac and nobody would have suspected KQ of having robbery of $8 as a motive. That is the reason for not disguising his face in the first place but rather disguising himself by wearing a few sweaters and appearing "barrel-chested." It allowed him to play the "I have direct line to the Mayor" card.

The better scenario is if Fouke and Zelms DID speak to the man. Then they may have asked who he was and there would have been no 3712 shenanigans in that case. He would have told them who he was and since they were only asking if he had seen anything, not if he had just killed a cad driver, he would once again have assumed he had not been seen because they dumb cops were looking for a black guy. If he went back out and they said that Zodiac looked like him, he’d go back to threatening their jobs and telling them that he had no motive to rob a cabbie since he had more money than God. Why had he changed clothes? He was planning to stay in for the night once he got home but the damn dog made a mad dash for the door, so he decided to take him out after he had changed into a robe or whatever.

And if an 8 year old or Lindsey said that is the guy, he would have ridiculed and belittled them as being mere kids who were obviously mistaken because KQ had no motive to rob a stupid cab of $8. And by the way, if they made him pose for these kids, he’d threaten to have their badges. He would have intimidated the heck out of the cops and the kids, at which he was apparently very skilled.

Mike

I agree with the first two paragraphs. I disagree with the last. If all three Robbins kids identified Qvale in 1969, he gets arrested and charged. If Fouke sees Qvale, stops him, sees blood on his hands and them pats him down, finding a gun and Stine’s shirt, Fouke arrests him immediately and takes him back to the crime scene for the kids to ID him. At that point, it’s a wrap. Qvale could have huffed and puffed until he head exploded. It wouldn’t matter. Three witnesses and physical evidence would have sealed his fate.

If KQ was Z, after getting back out there, what were Fouke and Zelms looking for IF Z walked up the steps to 3712? Not Zodiac. Not a serial killer. Not at the point. They were looking for someone who had robbed a cab of $8.

Well, there’s also the little matter involving murder.

So if they dared to question KQ as to why he did anything, he would have immediately asked them if they knew who they were speaking to and that if they didn’t bugger off, he’d call the Mayor and have their badges. In that case, there would have been no October 13th letter and no pieces of Stine’s shirt ever mailed. Z was in control at that point of whether the cops ever knew that he had committed the Stine murder. There would have been zero knowledge that it was Zodiac and nobody would have suspected KQ of having robbery of $8 as a motive. That is the reason for not disguising his face in the first place but rather disguising himself by wearing a few sweaters and appearing "barrel-chested." It allowed him to play the "I have direct line to the Mayor" card.

True, they wouldn’t have ever known he was the Zodiac, but his connections wouldn’t be enough to let him escape the murder charge. The only case I’m aware of from the 1960s, where a powerful figure got the soft glove treatment from LE after causing someone’s death, was Ted Kennedy, and that wasn’t anything like putting a bullet into someone’s head from point blank range.

The better scenario is if Fouke and Zelms DID speak to the man. Then they may have asked who he was and there would have been no 3712 shenanigans in that case. He would have told them who he was and since they were only asking if he had seen anything, not if he had just killed a cad driver, he would once again have assumed he had not been seen because they dumb cops were looking for a black guy. If he went back out and they said that Zodiac looked like him, he’d go back to threatening their jobs and telling them that he had no motive to rob a cabbie since he had more money than God. Why had he changed clothes? He was planning to stay in for the night once he got home but the damn dog made a mad dash for the door, so he decided to take him out after he had changed into a robe or whatever.

And if an 8 year old or Lindsey said that is the guy, he would have ridiculed and belittled them as being mere kids who were obviously mistaken because KQ had no motive to rob a stupid cab of $8. And by the way, if they made him pose for these kids, he’d threaten to have their badges. He would have intimidated the heck out of the cops and the kids, at which he was apparently very skilled.

Mike

Mike, 95% of what you are saying is that KQ could’ve simply talked the cops out of investigating him by bullying and threatening. It doesn’t work that way. Frankly, the cops, who are just doing their jobs, trying to make the neighborhood (KQ’s neighborhood) safer by catching a cold-blooded murderer, would be very suspicious of this guy becoming so defensive and belligerent. The expected reaction would be total cooperation, to help LE, to catch the bad guy, to maintain a positive image in the public eye. Being intimidating doesn’t mean he doesn’t have to have reasonable answers to reasonable questions.

Once the description of the killer was corrected, from a black man to a white male, I assume the description of the clothing he was wearing was also circulated. Foulke and Zelms would’ve made the connection to the guy they stopped at that point – same clothing, white guy, a block away 2 minutes after the murder, and the guy disappeared behind the nearest house right after they saw him (3712,) which in retrospect was an evasive move, or quite a coincidence if the guy actually happened to live right there.

15 minutes after the murder, Foulke and Zelms must’ve realized the guy they stopped was the killer of the cab driver, or at minimum, suspicious enough for a good round of questioning. Had they stopped Stine’s killer/KQ, they would’ve asked, among other things:

1. Where do you live?
2. Why did you suddenly duck behind 3712 right after we saw you, since that isn’t where you live?
3. Why were you wearing clothing consistent with the description witnesses have provided?
4. The last time we saw you, 15 minutes ago, you were out walking, so why did you get home, change clothes, reverse direction, and walk back here so quickly?
5. Why, again, did you duck behind 3712 right after seeing us?

Zelm’s wife said that when her husband and Foulke stopped Paul’s killer, he was very calm, very ordinary. If it was KQ, and the later questioning like above made him resort to huffing and puffing, we can add:

6. Why is your attitude suddenly so combative, as opposed to our previous encounter 15 minutes ago?

At this point it is highly likely that KQ would be their best and only POI. Lindsey and his sister would’ve had a look at him. Foulke’s and Zelms’ description of the clothing they had seen him wearing right after the murder would coincide with the Robbins’ descriptions of the killer’s clothing. A warrant to obtain that clothing would’ve been issued, and game over. That 15 minutes might’ve been enough time for KQ to get home, cleaned off, and back near the scene, but not to also find a fool-proof hiding place for his bloody trophy and bloody clothes.

Even if Zelms lied to his wife (quite unlikely IMO) and he and Foulke didn’t speak to Paul’s killer, they still got a good enough look at him for the sketch, plus his clothes. So all the above would still be applicable.

KQ was questioned by Pelissetti. My point is, had it been Foulke or Zelms instead, he would’ve bungled a clean escape into an embarrassing capture.

Well, if we believe Mrs. Zelms, Zodiac sent Fouke on a wild goose chase. And again, Z wouldn’t have known about the "negro male adult" fiasco or the corrected description. In fact, one has to wonder why he would even bother hiding if the cops had just blown by and taken no interest in him whatsoever. At that point, it’s just the sheer happenstance that Fouke doesn’t cross paths with him again.

However, Fouke’s report only indicates that he radioed about seeing a WMA heading toward the park. Nothing about a house. So it’s hard to qualify its importance when he only started talking about it in the 2000s.

While Pelissetti offered a perfectly rational explanation for not taking KQ back to the witnesses, was the guy they DID bring back, heavy set, and covered with blood? I would find it rather odd if there were two blood-covered guys on the street that night and only one of them was a killer.

Now, in regards to actual detective work on the case: Xen Anthony was fingerprinted because of the 8 year-old witness. The report didn’t say his house was searched or that he was shown to the Robbins, and Toschi obviously didn’t care about their opinion of Allen. So, I don’t know if it’s necessarily a slam-dunk if they had an ID of KQ.

Well, if we believe Mrs. Zelms, Zodiac sent Fouke on a wild goose chase. And again, Z wouldn’t have known about the "negro male adult" fiasco or the corrected description. In fact, one has to wonder why he would even bother hiding if the cops had just blown by and taken no interest in him whatsoever. At that point, it’s just the sheer happenstance that Fouke doesn’t cross paths with him again.

However, Fouke’s report only indicates that he radioed about seeing a WMA heading toward the park. Nothing about a house. So it’s hard to qualify its importance when he only started talking about it in the 2000s.

While Pelissetti offered a perfectly rational explanation for not taking KQ back to the witnesses, was the guy they DID bring back, heavy set, and covered with blood? I would find it rather odd if there were two blood-covered guys on the street that night and only one of them was a killer.

Now, in regards to actual detective work on the case: Xen Anthony was fingerprinted because of the 8 year-old witness. The report didn’t say his house was searched or that he was shown to the Robbins, and Toschi obviously didn’t care about their opinion of Allen. So, I don’t know if it’s necessarily a slam-dunk if they had an ID of KQ.

The only reason we know of KQ at all as a witness is because of a statement by Pelissetti in the 2000s. KQ isn’t in any police report (that has been disclosed). What if Pelissetti was mistaken? Anytime someone adds details to a story after 30 years, I have to be skeptical. Now, I don’t know that Pelissetti never spoke to Qvale, but it would appear that he never bothered to document it in a report. If there is a report somewhere, as Pelissetti says, where he documented his conversation with Qvale, why is it held under lock and key? What is more likely, conspiracy by SFPD or Pelissetti made a mistake 30 years later? I don’t know. Did Pelissetti make a supplemental report in November around the time of the Fouke memo? I don’t know. However, I think it is reasonable to question whether Pelissetti ever even spoke to Qvale that night. I wouldn’t take that as established fact.

When I say the matter is that Zodiac robbed a cab of $8, what I mean is that the notion that the cab was robbed of $8 was the presumed motive for the murder until Z claimed credit for it. And nobody could assert that KQ, a millionaire, needed $8 badly enough to kill someone for it had he gotten into a kerfuffle with the cops over whether or not he was the killer on the night of the Stine murder.

I already addressed the reason KQ could have given for getting back on the street so quickly after he had arrived home–the dog needed to answer the call of nature, so I threw on some clothes and took him out.

As for KQ throwing his weight around, even 30 years after the fact when I came forward the police were still afraid to go near him. Let alone back in 1969 when he likely knew the mayor.

It’s hilarious that no matter how many times Pelissetti swears he spoke to Qvale, people say it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I think that had it been some other suspect, like Gyke, Allen or Sullivan, it would be gospel that Pelissetti had spoken to that particular suspect. Even when AP says there is a police report on the encounter (which amateurs like me and you naturally can’t get their hands on anymore than we can get our hands on anything else from SFPD’s files) people say proceed with caution.

I believe it was Vince Reptto who told me that (likely after 1969) Pelissetti had inherited the Van Ness beat, which included British Motors. And apparently, Pelissetti was a good schmoozer for the "policeman’s discount" on anything a cop could get a discount on. So he likely had spoken to Qvale about British sports cars lol and probably was reacquainted with him at that point. So IF it was not KQ that Pelissetti had spoken to that night, if Pelissetti had the Van Ness beat BEFORE or during 1969, he would have known who KQ was and was not on the night of the Stine murder and if he had Van Ness AFTER 1969, he would have realized that the person he had spoken to in 1969 was not Qvale.

So I think it is fair to say that Pelissetti, who is by all accounts a smart guy, knows he spoke to Qvale that night. So let’s stop the nonsense.

And as I said, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR from his behavior (if you stop to think about it) that Zodiac did not think he was seen by ANYONE that night or that the police were looking for someone who looked like him. That was reinforced when he allowed Fouke to catch him off-guard from the front and Fouke either looked at him and simply drove past him OR stopped him and asked him which was he saw the NMA perpetrator go. So stop with the "what if’s" about why KQ would have gone back on the street given the various potential perils that allegedly awaited him out there. He would not have perceived any such perils because the upshot of the mix-up about the black guy and the subsequent actions (or lack thereof) by Fouke upon encountering KQ would have reinforced KQ’s (mis)conception that NOBODY HAD SEEN HIM. And if he had not been seen by anyone and nobody was looking for someone like him, why not venture back outside?

If it came down to three teens saying they had seen KQ, whom they did not know in 1969, kill a cabbie for a few dollars, a "motive" that would have made little sense to anyone with half a brain, I am quite sure it would have been chalked up to a case of "mistaken identity." Had Lindsey known KQ in 1969, maybe that would have changed the equation somewhat. I don’t know. But as it stood, KQ would have been able to brush off their accusations because the motive did not give the police any reason to suspect him. What person in their right mind would believe KQ would kill for money? That’s the beauty of being in control of people knowing the REAL motive for killing Stine. Even with the wisdom and knowledge about the case everyone had acquired over 30 years, when I approached the police in 1999 they could not believe that KQ could have been Z. In 1969, I am sure that with his connections and wealth, KQ would have rebuffed any accusations.

It’s hilarious that no matter how many times Pelissetti swears he spoke to Qvale, people say it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I think that had it been some other suspect, like Gyke, Allen of Sullivan, it would be gospel. Even when AP says there is a police report on the encounter (which amateurs like me and you naturally can’t get their hands on anymore than we can get our hands on anything else from SFPD’s files) people say proceed with caution.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would doubt any statement from any investigator or witness that did not end up in the official reports, especially when it was made 30 years after the events.

So I think it is fair to say that Pelissetti, who is by all accounts a smart guy, knows he spoke to Qvale that night. So let’s stop the nonsense.

You like Pelissetti’s statements when they help your case, but you sure don’t like them when they hurt it. You can’t have it both ways.

The only reason we know of KQ at all as a witness is because of a statement by Pelissetti in the 2000s. KQ isn’t in any police report (that has been disclosed). What if Pelissetti was mistaken? Anytime someone adds details to a story after 30 years, I have to be skeptical. Now, I don’t know that Pelissetti never spoke to Qvale, but it would appear that he never bothered to document it in a report. If there is a report somewhere, as Pelissetti says, where he documented his conversation with Qvale, why is it held under lock and key? What is more likely, conspiracy by SFPD or Pelissetti made a mistake 30 years later? I don’t know. Did Pelissetti make a supplemental report in November around the time of the Fouke memo? I don’t know. However, I think it is reasonable to question whether Pelissetti ever even spoke to Qvale that night. I wouldn’t take that as established fact.

Well, I figured Repetto wouldn’t have taken a serious interest in KQ if the linchpin in the whole thing could have been defused by some behind the scenes research. And we only have a tiny fraction of SFPD reports compared to other agencies.

There is nothing that Pelissetti says that undermines my case. I simply think he is mistaken when he says that KQ was only a witness. You seem not to like the fact that he says he spoke to KQ at all that night but I think that is hardly even debatable at this point for the reasons I’ve stated. I think a jury would roll its eyes at this line of reasoning. Pelissetti was THERE that night and he says there is a report that mentions KQ. And you insist on doubting him. Try calling SFPD and demanding as a "Vegas Lawyer" that they open their files to you. Good luck.

You want people to believe that the person who spoke to KQ that night doesn’t realize he DIDN’T speak to KQ but to somebody else and the person who wrote the report on the incident, BOTH of whom are the same person, doesn’t realize that he DIDN’T write a report about not speaking to KQ, or whatever. Huh?

Regardless, when I came forward to SFPD again in 2011, my report went all the way up to the level of the Chief in early 2012. If they had decided that KQ was not Z up to that point, via DNA or by examining what Pelissetti said, or by other means, why would they have wasted their time reading anything I had to say? But keep blowing the smoke.