The reason I used "European accent" was because I could not pin down the exact country. Maybe he sounded a bit different in his younger days. I did play the audio for two other people, who thought they heard hints of an Irish accent when they first started listening.

I think that is right Drew. Most Americans might be able to label an accent as German or Italian or Mexican. I think for many other countries – say Poland, Switzerland and certainly Norway – countries whose accent they have likely never heard with any regularity if at all – they might just say they detect a "foreign" accent or perhaps a "European" accent.

Nobody has accused you of being biased Mike. I think most researchers, myself included, who have invested a lot of time in a POI may have some mild unconscious selectivity when it comes to their POI, but I try to guard against it and I think you do as well. I think you would post all info about your POI good or bad. I do not think you are biased. I think you do not overstate the facts against X. You don’t hear an accent. Others with no interest in your POI also do not hear an accent.

Some others reported not hearing an accent, some said they heard a very slight accent that is well disguised by slow and deliberate speech, others report definitely hearing an accent. So I am not alone in hearing it, and you are not alone in not hearing it. Thanks to all those who posted.

Going back 40 years or more from the date of the commercial, would any accent likely be less, the same or more? In my experience, as the grandchild of immigrants, and as a military policeman and an attorney, accents become less noticeable the longer the person is in the country and they consciously and subconsciously adopt more speech patterns of their country of residence. So I would say it is very unlikely that Mr X had less of an accent in 1969 then he did in 2012, and that is was either the same or more likely somewhat more pronounced.

Given that some people hear the accent and some don’t, given that Hartnell had a conversation with Z, and seems to have been a perceptive young man with a good memory, it surprises me that he mentioned no trace of any foreign accent at all. And that the police operators mentioned no foreign accent. Given that some people hear it and some don’t, it is possible that they just did not hear it. But I would think at least one of the earwitnesses to Z would have at least detected a trace of a foreign accent.

But it is just one item to be considered, or not, along with all the other information on Mr X, both inculpatory and exculpatory, which Mike R has done an excellent and fair job of researching and presenting.

the fear emotion with MM and MH may have significantly affected what those 2 actually heard and I just do not trust either of those 2 memory..just a thought..still think KJ (if she was really with Z) and slover lady (may be best witness to voice) are probably 2 of the better witnesses to Z and his voice. (granted I think KJ was with Z)…i dunno..you guys are the experts so you can tell me your thoughts..like to know what morf thinks as well..he knows tons of stuff as well as you 2 guys…

Norse, since you are the resident expert here on the language, maybe you can clarify.

Generally it seems that certain languages- could be the entire Romance family of languages- have certain pronunciations that seem to stick with a speaker even 50 years down the road. I know that friends of mine who are native Spanish speakers take forever to lose their accents. Something always remains in what someone mentioned as a "sing-song’ sort of cadence in the manner of speaking, but there is also the double rr in Spanish, the "s" sound in German, "r" in Asiatic speakers, etc., that will probably remain with the speaker forever in some form.
I really, honest to god, don’t hear any accent on the video, but I do hear a sort of "sing-song" cadence like I mentioned. There is a rhythmic quality that strikes me as non-American. But its very, very subtle. But I am wondering if there are any sounds that would be found in the Norwegian language that could be comparable to those formerly mentioned pronunciations, something that would betray the speaker in terms of forensic linguistics as a Norwegian native even 70 years down the road? Some languages don’t have that, I reckon, those particular, tough-to-erase-from-your-mindbank sounds. Whereas those Spanish "rr" and those German "zee" for "see" bits are hard to overcome. I am from the South and no matter how many decades I don’t live there, I am sure someone would hear it just by the way I pronounce "in-surance" with a different emphasis. Are there any good "tells" as far as you know in general in Norwegian, or is it sort of more even in that way? I hope I am making sense.

SO, all in all I think that even if it ISN’t KQ I am increasingly excited by the idea that it would have been someone LIKE HIM. That seems to put it on firmer ground and certainly the methodology of putting him on the suspect list was sound, and not based on wild speculation. Inevitably speculation HAS to enter into the picture somewhere if you set your spotlight on a certain guy. I am not seeing anything on KQ in terms of connection with the other cases, its just a Stine proximity, but the type of man he is- an innovator, millionaire, etc., broadens the field and gets it out of the doldrums. Z wasn’t a nobody trying to be a somebody. He already WAS a somebody- in some way. Which can only make it easier to find him. If he were just some pathetic wanderer we wouldn’t know who he is. There are a hell of a lot fewer KQs in the world than garden-variety lowlife-rapist types.

Then again, think of Gacy. Gacy met the first lady. Lawd, wrap your head around that. He also had a bunch of KFC restaurants. (Chicken= young boys )
So Z might be more like Gacy, in terms of being able to hang in the real world yet be a murderous perv in his free time. Not many of those guys are terribly well adjusted but Gacy and Bundy seemed fairly stable- for a time anyway. They had homes and jobs and people liked them, sort of. Whereas other dudes were heavy-lifting-but-stable types (Leonard Lake, Kenneth Bianchi, Israel Keyes), or creepy obviously-damaged guys like Ramirez, Arthur Shawcross, Dahmer.
These are obviously my own ad-hoc categories here but I think its very important to look at the overall match on the personality type and flesh out from there. I think Walter was right when he said that Mike had it- may not be THE guy but its a guy LIKE him.

Hartnell used the word drawl to describe Z’s voice, specifying it wasn’t a southern drawl. I think the word he was looking for was drone, which is more of a slow, almost hypnotic way of speaking, which is definitely the way KQ speaks in that ad.

MM, how many people fitting the power-assertive profile wrote a letter to The Chronicle warning that if they keep up their sensationalist reporting there would be bloodshed in his neighborhood, before Z entered the picture? If you think Z is someone like KQ,I’m having a hard time understanding what is keeping you from the leap to think it was KQ. While the power-assertive profile fits with both Z and KQ, I don’t think it’s the most compelling pro.

Hi-

When you say that the *only* tie between KQ and the case is the Stine murder, you are missing a lot. He had proven ties to Solano County that predate the Z era. He had proven ties to Napa County and was an accomplished water skier who denied ever having been to LB even though he owned power boats on Lake Tahoe and SF Bay at various points. He had very well proven ties to Riverside that go back to the late 1950s. He had proven ties to Mt. Diablo. He even had (admittedly more tenuous) ties to Tracy.

I don’t know all the facts about all of them but but is there another suspect who had PROVEN ties to all of these areas?

I’ve read every article and book about KQ I could lay my hands on since 1999 and I have not seen even one reference to him having any kind of accent. Just a slow manner of speaking.

Mike

mike is right on that..X can be placed in all the Z settings..strong ties to riverside (racing venue..X was there) which I believe is way more than the other POI’s (like damn near all the rest of top tier POI’s)..still handwriting and such is a downer and I am not going to get involved in a bitch fest on his accent..but hey..I like X and still do..

Hartnell used the word drawl to describe Z’s voice, specifying it wasn’t a southern drawl. I think the word he was looking for was drone, which is more of a slow, almost hypnotic way of speaking, which is definitely the way KQ speaks in that ad.

MM, how many people fitting the power-assertive profile wrote a letter to The Chronicle warning that if they keep up their sensationalist reporting there would be bloodshed in his neighborhood, before Z entered the picture? If you think Z is someone like KQ,I’m having a hard time understanding what is keeping you from the leap to think it was KQ. While the power-assertive profile fits with both Z and KQ, I don’t think it’s the most compelling pro.

Because I see no evidence linking him with the other crimes yet, that’s why. And leaping to conclusions isn’t something I like to do. Not to say I am not prone to it from time to time, but there have been so many suspects, its best to hang back and see.

Hi-

The Zodiac case distorts the way we look at crime. The police in 99% of cases don’t solve murders based on handwriting. That is because there are variables involved–did the killer have an accomplice, was he somehow able to alter his handwriting, etc. Who solves a murder case with letters? (Zodiac made references to Gilbert and Sullivan. I remarked as far back as early July 1999, a week or so after developing KQ as a suspect, that the references to "The Mikado" may hint at a partnership in the Z case, a la G&S being partners in the creation of light operas. That was long before I ever saw KQ’s handwriting or knew anything about DNA, so my idea was not in response to anything negative about my evidence. It was just an idea I had and still keep in the back of my mind.)

On the other hand, KQ fits the profile of one of the elite profilers in the world (yes, a few notches above John Douglas; Walter is one of the pioneers who created the field of forensic psychology) and the circumstantial case against KQ is very strong, starting with his ability to be tied to all of the crime scene locations. And you got that right that probably no other suspect can be linked to all of the areas, with the most obscure one being a wealthy neighborhood in SF.

A suspect with a relative who lived like twenty blocks east on Washington at Van Ness is not someone who is necessarily familiar with the intersection of Washington and Maple. But people would have you believe that someone with ties to a neighborhood twenty blocks away from Wash/Maple would be as likely to be familiar with that intersection as someone who lived just down the block from Washington and Maple. That is the logic of the Z case. (Someone who lives in Chelsea in NYC is not by definition familiar with the intimate details of 9th Avenue and 48th Street in Hell’s Kitchen.)

Mike

I think its important to remember that good ol ALA has very strong ties to the locations as well. Perhaps not for the Stine murder, but he was certainly a Vallejo resident and lived damn near across the street from where Darlene Ferrin worked. If you are talking about proximity being something that ties Z to the victims, ALA also has that on his side, as well as a host of other tidbits like being a former Navy guy, familiar with codes, had been seen with codes, the whole Cheney "Z" conversation bit- and that’s why ALA has had such popularity as a suspect. I no longer think he fits the profile, don’t get me wrong, but like you said, Mike, the case distorts how one looks at the evidence- its prismatic. This is why while I feel that the profile is on the money, I am not yet completely on board with KQ. I am probably too stubborn to be fully on board with ANYONE til I get a smoking gun, which is what we are all looking for.

The thing that would cinch it for me is if we could somehow get those codes solved, and it they were in Norwegian, even if they just said "haha, i will never give you my name, you fools!" that would just about cinch it for me.

Mike, have you been able to talk to any of his compatriots, contemporaries, anyone who has given you any indication of a sociopathic nature? Anybody saying, "you know, KQ, helluva guy, I just never liked him too much because he was really cold beneath the surface" or stories of that nature? If you are a sociopath, or someone capable of murder, i don’t care how well you cover up your crimes, there WILL be tells in your daily life in terms of your behavior, something just a little bit off. BTK may have been an upstanding member of his community, but he also killed his neighbors dog and there were twitterings about his peculiar nature long before he was caught. Anything like that on KQ?

no worries from me to anybody here..I still think ALA is a good as any of em in regards to a POI..even though there is DNA evidence that no longer links ALA to Z..im just not ready to can ALA as Z but I am not aware of how you can tie ALA to C bates and with X he was in riverside and that is a given (no way to prove that date in Oct though and probably never will be)..somehow ALA still holds my interest after all this years..still like to know what names X gave his boats..may be X had a coded boat name..oh well..

ps: X would have known exactly how to disable Bates VW (but so would any grease monkey kid who like cars) but I am Just Sayin…

ps: if it can ever be proven TK had interviewed at RCC then it is time to up the % of guilt in regards to TK being Z (just my opinion there)….

the case distorts how one looks at the evidence- its prismatic.

i completely agree. it’s like having 100 puzzle pieces for a 50 piece puzzle – you start trying to fit things into a narrative but unfortunately it’s all too easy to pick and choose which pieces fit which narrative. i think it would be a productive exercise from a personal standpoint to start by going through all of the evidence and saying outright ‘these are the things i think are connected to the zodiac killings, and these are the things i think are hoaxes/not connected/errors/etc’ then going forward sticking to that framework. we’re all guilty of it – i don’t generally think the riverside poem is z-related, but give me a theory with that at the center and suddenly it’s "well….maybe it is" – and it clouds a systematic approach to eliminating suspects and scenarios. on this web site alone there are what, fifty, maybe sixty suspects? that means it’s likely that 59 innocent people are being looked at as potential zodiac killers. i’m not dogging the efforts of those involved (myself included) just saying the reality is most of what we’re doing is reacting to an ever-changing quantity of information which, as you said, distorts how one looks at the evidence.

Hi-

Is aloof the same as cold? Z was described as being aloof. A P-A is aloof. There is a 1964 article in which the author is talking about KQ’s business endeavors when he suddenly diverts for no apparent reason into a huge paragraph that talks about how aloof KQ is and how he keeps his distance from others. It then goes on to clarify that he did not just become aloof since becoming wealthy: He had been that way all his life.

Mike

I am sure this has been discussed before as it is a pretty obvious point, but from the Dripping Pen letter, Z abbreviates December using "Des"…..that is the Norwegian abbreviation for December……"Frunt", used in that card to replace "front", is also a town in Switzerland.