Hi guys,

I’m finding this process a bit overwhelming. What I mean to say is I don’t want to ask the wrong questions and there are so many topics that I don’t even know where to begin. However, one issue that has always been in the back of my mind is the different descriptions of the murderer. From what I have been able to gather, and seem to understand, there seems to be different versions with regards to the murderers appearance (weight, height, age). Could this mean that there might have been more than one individual committing these heinous and senseless murders?

Hi guys,

I’m finding this process a bit overwhelming. What I mean to say is I don’t want to ask the wrong questions and there are so many topics that I don’t even know where to begin. However, one issue that has always been in the back of my mind is the different descriptions of the murderer. From what I have been able to gather, and seem to understand, there seems to be different versions with regards to the murderers appearance (weight, height, age). Could this mean that there might have been more than one individual committing these heinous and senseless murders?

Hello, and welcome. I know it can be daunting to dive into a case that inspires as much fervor in its researchers as this one does. I lurked message boards for nearly a decade before joining this one as a poster, so I absolutely get it.

Generally, the folks who promote a Z conspiracy are people whose suspects have been ruled out based on the hard evidence (fingerprints, handwriting, DNA) but have a hard time letting go. (Robert Graysmith comes to mind.) However, in the case of at least one person of interest, Fred Manalli, there are some curious cirumstances that, if conclusively linked to him, would suggest otherwise.

Personally, I lean toward Zodiac being a traditional "angry loner" and don’t actually see a whole lot of discrepancies between the varying descriptions of the killer’s appearance, finding his height, build, facial features, and dress consistent enough through all the known crime scenes where a witness was present.

Hello, and welcome. I know it can be daunting to dive into a case that inspires as much fervor in its researchers as this one does. I lurked message boards for nearly a decade before joining this one as a poster, so I absolutely get it.

Generally, the folks who promote a Z conspiracy are people whose suspects have been ruled out based on the hard evidence (fingerprints, handwriting, DNA) but have a hard time letting go. (Robert Graysmith comes to mind.) However, in the case of at least one person of interest, Fred Manalli, there are some curious cirumstances that, if conclusively linked to him, would suggest otherwise.

Personally, I lean toward Zodiac being a traditional "angry loner" and don’t actually see a whole lot of discrepancies between the varying descriptions of the killer’s appearance, finding his height, build, facial features, and dress consistent enough through all the known crime scenes where a witness was present.

Hello to you also. Thank you for the insight. You are probably correct with your information. There has been so much written and discussed with regards to possible individuals that I sometimes get lost in this never ending myriad of possibilities. Thank you for appeasing my mind.

I have not had a suspect that I can affirmatively point a finger at. Many have come to mind but they seem to lose credibility once I begin to dig deeper into the issue. For the good of mine and everyone’s sanity, I find it necessary to limit ones immersion into the case. I’ve noticed how certain people (throughout the different forums) have developed an obsession with the case which in turn has made them seem delusional in their approach. This case seem veiled in some sort of powerful force which drives folks to the brink of insanity. Maybe due to the fact that we are all trying to be the ones who have found the glory hole. Up until now, only tailings and water have come to the surface and bedrock seems to be impossible to reach. Only time will tell.

Agreed on all points. It’s healthy and on occasion, absolutely necessary to step away from these things every so often. Spending too much time trying to get into the heads of people like the Zodiac Killer has a way of taking its toll on your emotional well-being after a while.

Hi guys,

I’m finding this process a bit overwhelming. What I mean to say is I don’t want to ask the wrong questions and there are so many topics that I don’t even know where to begin. However, one issue that has always been in the back of my mind is the different descriptions of the murderer. From what I have been able to gather, and seem to understand, there seems to be different versions with regards to the murderers appearance (weight, height, age). Could this mean that there might have been more than one individual committing these heinous and senseless murders?

I personally think there is a good possibility someone else was responsible for one of the attacks. We know many phony letters were mailed in. Why someone would do that is beyond me, but there are twisted people out there!

With the NY Zodiac, they figured he wanted immediate attention and by using a well known killer, he would get it.

Lots to read and certainly no rush. I suggest finding a topic you seem to be most interested in and starting there.

Lots to read and certainly no rush. I suggest finding a topic you seem to be most interested in and starting there.

Pettibon Junction and Tahoe27,

Thank you for the heads up. Tahoe27, I must concur with you though. I sometimes can’t distract myself from believing there might have been more than one perpetrator involved in the killings. Not to say that you Pettibon Junction are wrong, however, I have a knot in my stomach regarding the issue. Moreover, and undertaking a more logical approach, if there was more than one perpetrator, they would have had to have been a heck of a team. Being able to hide such a conniving secret takes a lot of doing. You would think that somewhere along the line someone would slip up and incriminate himself.

Lots to read and certainly no rush. I suggest finding a topic you seem to be most interested in and starting there.

Pettibon Junction and Tahoe27,

Thank you for the heads up. Tahoe27, I must concur with you though. I sometimes can’t distract myself from believing there might have been more than one perpetrator involved in the killings. Not to say that you Pettibon Junction are wrong, however, I have a knot in my stomach regarding the issue. Moreover, and undertaking a more logical approach, if there was more than one perpetrator, they would have had to have been a heck of a team. Being able to hide such a conniving secret takes a lot of doing. You would think that somewhere along the line someone would slip up and incriminate himself.

Unless one took the other(s) out of the equation.

Unless one took the other(s) out of the equation.

Bingo…On number 70…Three score and ten! I didn’t think of that possibility. It makes perfect sense. Rid yourself of unwanted trash or wait for it to rot away! I’m beginning to understand the putrid nature of this case.

The case is fraught with myriad inconsistencies and contradictions. Throw into the mix possible hoaxsters, copycats, accomplices, etc., and you have what we have: a case sitting on ice for nigh 50 years. Here is a killer whose reputation has outstripped his crimes, almost reached mythical status. And yet it can’t even be positively ascertained if he’s guilty of some of the crimes commonly attributed to him, which letters are authentic (especially the later ones), or, indeed, even what he looks like. In this sense, he very much achieved his goal: the goal of making himself appear greater than himself.

The case is fraught with myriad inconsistencies and contradictions. Throw into the mix possible hoaxsters, copycats, accomplices, etc., and you have what we have: a case sitting on ice for nigh 50 years. Here is a killer whose reputation has outstripped his crimes, almost reached mythical status. And yet it can’t even be positively ascertained if he’s guilty of some of the crimes commonly attributed to him, which letters are authentic (especially the later ones), or, indeed, even what he looks like. In this sense, he very much achieved his goal: the goal of making himself appear greater than himself.

So true.

According to Greysmith’s book, Bobbie Ramos, the waitress at Terry’s Waffle Shop, indicated she received a call at work from Officer Gordon announcing Dee’s death at around 12:15; however, Dee DOA was approx 12:38. Was this just a typo?

Good question.

I don’t know if it was a typo, a mistake by Bobbie, or if he did it on purpose to make us question Gordon. If true, than Gordon would almost have to be her killer…and since he dated Darlene it makes it all the more interesting.

I tend to think it was just someones error.

Who in Vallejo didn’t date Darlene Ferrin?

Jaw, you’ve probably read this but here’s what Tom Voigt feels are the strongest points for Gaikowski as a suspect:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SuspectGaikowski.html

…And a few more that Tom or others feel are "Nails in the Coffin":

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/forums/ … 5okKuDD-Ul

I would invite you to judge for yourself how strong the evidence is.

Also is there any indication that Z meant for his victims to survive the attack at Lake Berryessa, at least long enough to describe his appearance to police?

I’ve heard it suggested but I find it very hard to believe that Zodiac had any desire for Hartnell or Shepard to survive considering that he stabbed them deeply with a long-blade knife six and ten times and left them tied up in rather isolated location. He had no idea how long it would be before somebody found them.

Why would he go to the trouble of making such an elaborate costume only to reveal himself in full regalia to the victims who he would kill soon after?

Not quite sure I understand what you mean here. Why would Z bother with the elaborate costume if he didn’t expect his victims to be alive to give a description of him? I tend to believe that the costume was part ritual, part disguise. if something went wrong (which it ultimately did with Hartnell surviving), it would help protect his identity at the same time.

You’re telling me that a former combat medic has no idea how to quickly kill someone with a knife? GTFOH!!! If Gaikowski were the Zodiac, all the victims would have been dead. He would know where to shoot or cut them so they die quickly. He wasn’t the Zodiac. There is no evidence linking him to any one of the crimes.

Hi guys,

I’m finding this process a bit overwhelming. What I mean to say is I don’t want to ask the wrong questions and there are so many topics that I don’t even know where to begin. However, one issue that has always been in the back of my mind is the different descriptions of the murderer. From what I have been able to gather, and seem to understand, there seems to be different versions with regards to the murderers appearance (weight, height, age). Could this mean that there might have been more than one individual committing these heinous and senseless murders?

I personally think there is a good possibility someone else was responsible for one of the attacks. We know many phony letters were mailed in. Why someone would do that is beyond me, but there are twisted people out there!

With the NY Zodiac, they figured he wanted immediate attention and by using a well known killer, he would get it.

Lots to read and certainly no rush. I suggest finding a topic you seem to be most interested in and starting there.

Do you think Zodiac would not have mentioned a copycat in his letters? I doubt that. It would have been an affront to him. And why did the copycat stop?

According to Greysmith’s book, Bobbie Ramos, the waitress at Terry’s Waffle Shop, indicated she received a call at work from Officer Gordon announcing Dee’s death at around 12:15; however, Dee DOA was approx 12:38. Was this just a typo?

Good question.

I don’t know if it was a typo, a mistake by Bobbie, or if he did it on purpose to make us question Gordon. If true, than Gordon would almost have to be her killer…and since he dated Darlene it makes it all the more interesting.

I tend to think it was just someones error.

Who in Vallejo didn’t date Darlene Ferrin?

Damn dude…..what the hell?….

If Gaikowski were the Zodiac, all the victims would have been dead. He would know where to shoot or cut them so they die quickly.

So only someone with a medic/medical background would know to shoot for the head/cut the throat? Laymen wouldn’t know that?