morf13 wrote:

RE: LB sketch vs SF Sketch: You’re right, they don’t look much alike. However, if you gave the Guy at the lake a crewcut, and glasses, he starts to look a lot closer to the SF sketch. Mageau always said he had a wide face, I personally think there is a good chance that the SK Sketch should have a fuller face. There is a good thread around here someplace of various sketches, and we compared the Lake B sketch to the SF sketch, with a variety of sketches in between. I will try to point the thread out if I can find it, or if somebody else can, please do.

Could be, but there are other discrepancies. The three teenage witnesses at LB invest their man with dark hair parted on the left side and more tellingly, perhaps, not wearing glasses. Even if, as some speculate here, the man observed by the teens was z in a wig, why the absence of glasses? Some speculate that z’s glasses were props, part of his disguise, but this seems unlikely to me. For why would he feel the need to wear them under his hood at LB and for that matter in the pitch of night at BRS? He positively didn’t expect to be seen going in or out of BRS and wearing faux glasses wouldn’t have helped him if he had been. That, and his "leave no survivors script at brs leads me to conclude that z did need the glasses to see. Also, he could not have anticipated Mageua surviving to put glasses on him, so z had no apparent reason to be concerned about that either.

Disguise or no, I don’t think the man "stalking" the teens at LB was z for the following reasons: 1) if the glasses were part of z’s disguise, why would he knowingly allow the girls to get a better look at, and thus give a better description of him, and 2) if z needed the glasses to see, why would he handicap himself by removing them while stalking potential victims? I have 20/200 vision and from 100 feet or so can barely tell a person from a light pole; it would definitely constitute a potentially high and unnecessary risk for him not to wear them. As I believe z’s glasses were likely prescription glasses I don’t see him taking the chance of not wearing them and am thus dubious that the man the teens saw at LB was z.

Were these girls asked their opinion of the sketches? Where are they now? If still living, would be interesting for the detective now-in-charge to contact them and show them all sketches to get their opinion. Did these girls see the man walking or just standing smoking? Don’t think they did….don’t remember any mention of an odd walk reported by them.

Were these girls asked their opinion of the sketches? Where are they now? If still living, would be interesting for the detective now-in-charge to contact them and show them all sketches to get their opinion. Did these girls see the man walking or just standing smoking? Don’t think they did….don’t remember any mention of an odd walk reported by them.

I know where a couple of them are, and could certainly write to them.

morf13 wrote:

RE: LB sketch vs SF Sketch: You’re right, they don’t look much alike. However, if you gave the Guy at the lake a crewcut, and glasses, he starts to look a lot closer to the SF sketch. Mageau always said he had a wide face, I personally think there is a good chance that the SK Sketch should have a fuller face. There is a good thread around here someplace of various sketches, and we compared the Lake B sketch to the SF sketch, with a variety of sketches in between. I will try to point the thread out if I can find it, or if somebody else can, please do.

Could be, but there are other discrepancies. The three teenage witnesses at LB invest their man with dark hair parted on the left side and more tellingly, perhaps, not wearing glasses. Even if, as some speculate here, the man observed by the teens was z in a wig, why the absence of glasses? Some speculate that z’s glasses were props, part of his disguise, but this seems unlikely to me. For why would he feel the need to wear them under his hood at LB and for that matter in the pitch of night at BRS? He positively didn’t expect to be seen going in or out of BRS and wearing faux glasses wouldn’t have helped him if he had been. That, and his "leave no survivors script at brs leads me to conclude that z did need the glasses to see. Also, he could not have anticipated Mageua surviving to put glasses on him, so z had no apparent reason to be concerned about that either.

Disguise or no, I don’t think the man "stalking" the teens at LB was z for the following reasons: 1) if the glasses were part of z’s disguise, why would he knowingly allow the girls to get a better look at, and thus give a better description of him, and 2) if z needed the glasses to see, why would he handicap himself by removing them while stalking potential victims? I have 20/200 vision and from 100 feet or so can barely tell a person from a light pole; it would definitely constitute a potentially high and unnecessary risk for him not to wear them. As I believe z’s glasses were likely prescription glasses I don’t see him taking the chance of not wearing them and am thus dubious that the man the teens saw at LB was z.

Zodiac wasn’t wearing glasses at BRS. People who need them to see still need them at night.

Bryan Hartnell said he did not believe his attacker was wearing glasses under the hood. Only clip-ons to cover the eye-holes. Bryan also said the guys hair was dark brown and combed.

This topic is covered in depth here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=131

Were these girls asked their opinion of the sketches? Where are they now? If still living, would be interesting for the detective now-in-charge to contact them and show them all sketches to get their opinion. Did these girls see the man walking or just standing smoking? Don’t think they did….don’t remember any mention of an odd walk reported by them.

Yes. They saw him walk down around the area they were sunbathing in the same manner Zodiac did with Bryan and Cecelia. That is when one of the girls noticed what she said MIGHT have been a white shirt hanging out the back of is pants. Clothesline anyone?

They said when they would look at him, he would turn away. Same thing with the doc and his son. "When they looked at him, he’d turn away". WHY?

Three separate creepy guys lurking through the trees, scoping the shoreline? Come on….

Zodiac wasn’t wearing glasses at BRS. People who need them to see still need them at night.

Bryan Hartnell said he did not believe his attacker was wearing glasses under the hood. Only clip-ons to cover the eye-holes. Bryan also said the guys hair was dark brown and combed.

This topic is covered in depth here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=131

That’s quite interesting. I was basing my belief on the 2007 interview of M. Mageau in which he said z was wearing glasses, but I would certainly consider his earlier testimony more reliable as the years do not appear to have treated him well. If in fact z did not wear prescription glasses then he quite possibly adopted fake ones post LB as disguise for the Stine murder, particularly if the LB description was indeed of him and accurate.

Michael stated the subject did not have a mustache, nor was he wearing glasses or anything.

BRS report, page 10.

Yes. They saw him walk down around the area they were sunbathing in the same manner Zodiac did with Bryan and Cecelia. That is when one of the girls noticed what she said MIGHT have been a white shirt hanging out the back of is pants. Clothesline anyone?

They said when they would look at him, he would turn away. Same thing with the doc and his son. "When they looked at him, he’d turn away". WHY?

Three separate creepy guys lurking through the trees, scoping the shoreline? Come on….

Both guys seem to have acted evasive and/or creepy – which can’t be ignored.

Still, certain things don’t add up.

There’s a timeline problem with the guy seen by the doc + son, isn’t there? He was too far away from Zodiac Island when they spotted him, I think – can’t remember the details.

My main problem with the voyeur is his behavior. He allows himself to be observed pretty closely by three witnesses. I’m not sure how well this fits the Z style, as we know it. It would have been possible for Z to scope out the area without getting close to any witnesses.

And I don’t find it likely that he intended to attack those girls (but then changed his mind): The location is wrong, in my opinion. Zodiac Island is isolated, not easily accessible, not visible from the road, etc. The other location would have been much riskier. There was a parking area close to the shore (where both the girls and the voyeur parked). It was several hours earlier in the day too. Just seems like a location where anyone could appear at any time.

So, if he didn’t intend to attack the girls, why did he hang around there for half an hour, smoking and making a spectacle of himself (to exaggerate a bit)? Seems very careless to me. Then again, this is perhaps giving Z too much credit. He was reckless enough in other respects, so who knows.

I’m not convinced it was him, though.

He thought he was being sneaky. He was evasive for the most part. Nin offers a nice possibility in the thread I posted. It’s like I mentioned…there would have been THREE of these guys doing this that day if they are not related. Compare everything about the separate descriptions..at a lake no less. Highly improbable, imo. Triplets?

I believe that the LB sketch was based on what people saw at a distance of the suspicous person that was allegedly following people around or at least creeping them out. The only person that 100% saw the attacker’s face was Cecelia and she did describe him (while in a great deal of pain), but could not assist with a stetch. I think the Stine sketch is probably more accurate.

bryan hartnell survived and gave a description as well. the suspicious person was reported to have been watching three girls sunbathing, but this was hours before the stabbing. it’s one of those things where in hindsight a guy being a creep might look suspicious because there was a murder, but otherwise would have just been a guy being a creep.

I can’t see someone being dumb enough to be perving on some girls and be seen and then commit a murder at the same location. Maybe the pervy guy was a friend of Zodiac’s who was scoping the place out, or could have just been a random creepy dude.

I can’t see someone being dumb enough to be perving on some girls and be seen and then commit a murder at the same location. Maybe the pervy guy was a friend of Zodiac’s who was scoping the place out, or could have just been a random creepy dude.

Okay, this might be a stretch, but: IF you are the first creepy guy, compulsively stalking sunbathers — and you are, to your dismay, spotted — might you come back with a costume/hood in order to disguise yourself? He clearly had no intention of being caught, even if he wasn’t too savvy about going about it. But if someone could potentially ID him and he knew it, the costume makes that more difficult. Hard to put myself in the guy’s shoes in terms of what he’s thinking, of course.

One thing that has always baffled me: the women describe him as "attractive." The sketch hardly shows him as that.

And if you are wearing a wig, shoes that are too big for your feet, sunglasses and are stuffing your pants…would you care?

Seriously though, since I think it was the same guy, I don’t think he was too concerned other than to look away as (he, imo) did with the girls and the doc and his son.

We have to remember guys like this think they will get away with their crimes. "You can’t/won’t catch me" mentality.

One thing that has always baffled me: the women describe him as "attractive." The sketch hardly shows him as that.

Not so much! But, this sketch has always fit the bill more to what they describe–at least I think so. The guy on the left, down to his hairstyle.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know if the man seen checking out the girls is also the attacker. It is possible that he had the hood stashed in his car, and after a long day at the lake he decided to bust out the hood and knife.

And if you are wearing a wig, shoes that are too big for your feet, sunglasses and are stuffing your pants…would you care?

Seriously though, since I think it was the same guy, I don’t think he was too concerned other than to look away as (he, imo) did with the girls and the doc and his son.

We have to remember guys like this think they will get away with their crimes. "You can’t/won’t catch me" mentality.

Makes sense – I am inclined, too, to believe it was the same guy. And there is certainly a mental twist, here — whether killer and/or creep was bright, or less-than-so — something that allows him to prioritize his own activity over any other consideration.