One thing that has always baffled me: the women describe him as "attractive." The sketch hardly shows him as that.

Not so much! But, this sketch has always fit the bill more to what they describe–at least I think so. The guy on the left, down to his hairstyle.

The guy on the left has those sympathetic eyebrows that the ladies love

I had understood that the LB composite came from the description Cecilia gave to Dave Collins. Collins stated that the composite was shown to the 3 girls and they identified the man in the drawing as the man that had been watching them.

http://napavalleyregister.com/news/loca … 9fb6c.html

Not the case. Just one more reason not to take Collin’s word for much, imo.

IMO, if you hang around places where young women congregate you will see 1-2 creeps just handing around on any given day. I realize that was a different time but it’s very well possible that there was a creep and a killer out there in the same day.

I’d like to ask a question. Was it not stated somewhere (police report or newspaper) that the three girls had seen the same man earlier in the day at a drive in restaurant or store? It seems I recall that the man had actually backed his car in real close to the girls car and was reportedly starring at them. He then shows up down the road where they are sunbathing.
I can’t seem to find where I read this. Anyone recall this?

I’d like to ask a question. Was it not stated somewhere (police report or newspaper) that the three girls had seen the same man earlier in the day at a drive in restaurant or store? It seems I recall that the man had actually backed his car in real close to the girls car and was reportedly starring at them. He then shows up down the road where they are sunbathing.
I can’t seem to find where I read this. Anyone recall this?

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport9.html

IMO, if you hang around places where young women congregate you will see 1-2 creeps just handing around on any given day. I realize that was a different time but it’s very well possible that there was a creep and a killer out there in the same day.

Sure, it’s possible. Some people believe they saw the same man, and some don’t. You have to take all factors into account and take it from there. Personally, I think it goes beyond "creep" to a perfectly matched description with Bryan, and beyond that, his movement and behavior.

IMO, if you hang around places where young women congregate you will see 1-2 creeps just handing around on any given day. I realize that was a different time but it’s very well possible that there was a creep and a killer out there in the same day.

Agreed.

IMO, if you hang around places where young women congregate you will see 1-2 creeps just handing around on any given day. I realize that was a different time but it’s very well possible that there was a creep and a killer out there in the same day.

Sure, it’s possible. Some people believe they saw the same man, and some don’t. You have to take all factors into account and take it from there. Personally, I think it goes beyond "creep" to a perfectly matched description with Bryan, and beyond that, his movement and behavior.

are you saying you see the girls’ description as a perfectly matched description with bryan?

from my notes the girls stated; "3:30PM – 4:30PM – Three girls, Joanne, Linda and Linda, notice a 1966/67 light blue Chevrolet Impala two-door sedan with CA plates watching them as they sunbathed at Lake Berryessa. Man was in his late 20s or 30s. Hair was black and straight, parted on the left. 6ft tall, 200-210lbs, muscular build,rather good looking. Wore a black sweater shirt and dark pants. Either wore a white belt or his t-shirt hung out in the back. They noticed him pull in and then he got out and walked toward where they were sunbathing and watched them from a group of trees. "

from my notes, hartnell stated; "Hartnell identifies attacker as heavy-set, 200-250lbs, around 6′ tall. Wearing dark blue or black light ski wind breaker, dark pleated pants, perhaps black. Suspect had dark brown hair visible through gap in hood. Suspect was a sloppy dresser and his stomach hung over his trousers. Suspect was approximately 20 to 30 years old based on voice and 5’8 to 6’1, 225 – 250lbs."

IMO, when Z was "hunting," he wore a disguise. Didn’t have to be much: a hairpiece, glasses, jacket worn inside a jacket, shoes sized differently from his own normal size, perhaps thick-soled. Further, witnesses/victims would likely be frightened, which might exaggerate Z’s size. There have been so many different descriptions of Z that I tend to discount them.

IMO, if you hang around places where young women congregate you will see 1-2 creeps just handing around on any given day. I realize that was a different time but it’s very well possible that there was a creep and a killer out there in the same day.

Sure, it’s possible. Some people believe they saw the same man, and some don’t. You have to take all factors into account and take it from there. Personally, I think it goes beyond "creep" to a perfectly matched description with Bryan, and beyond that, his movement and behavior.

are you saying you see the girls’ description as a perfectly matched description with bryan?

from my notes the girls stated; "3:30PM – 4:30PM – Three girls, Joanne, Linda and Linda, notice a 1966/67 light blue Chevrolet Impala two-door sedan with CA plates watching them as they sunbathed at Lake Berryessa. Man was in his late 20s or 30s. Hair was black and straight, parted on the left. 6ft tall, 200-210lbs, muscular build,rather good looking. Wore a black sweater shirt and dark pants. Either wore a white belt or his t-shirt hung out in the back. They noticed him pull in and then he got out and walked toward where they were sunbathing and watched them from a group of trees. "

from my notes, hartnell stated; "Hartnell identifies attacker as heavy-set, 200-250lbs, around 6′ tall. Wearing dark blue or black light ski wind breaker, dark pleated pants, perhaps black. Suspect had dark brown hair visible through gap in hood. Suspect was a sloppy dresser and his stomach hung over his trousers. Suspect was approximately 20 to 30 years old based on voice and 5’8 to 6’1, 225 – 250lbs."

There are a lot closer details. Hopefully anyone interested will take a look here: http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=131

From them both mentioning styled combed/parted hair to pouchy stomachs, and the way he walked down to them…

Hopefully any discussion about this can be carried on at the link provided.

My main problem with the voyeur is his behavior. He allows himself to be observed pretty closely by three witnesses. I’m not sure how well this fits the Z style, as we know it. It would have been possible for Z to scope out the area without getting close to any witnesses.

And I don’t find it likely that he intended to attack those girls (but then changed his mind): The location is wrong, in my opinion. Zodiac Island is isolated, not easily accessible, not visible from the road, etc. The other location would have been much riskier. There was a parking area close to the shore (where both the girls and the voyeur parked). It was several hours earlier in the day too. Just seems like a location where anyone could appear at any time.

So, if he didn’t intend to attack the girls, why did he hang around there for half an hour, smoking and making a spectacle of himself (to exaggerate a bit)? Seems very careless to me. Then again, this is perhaps giving Z too much credit. He was reckless enough in other respects, so who knows.

I’m not convinced it was him, though.

Suppose this. Z decides to throw LE another curve ball. He puts on a wig, disguises himself nicely, makes sure he’s seen in the area by people who will be alive after he’s "done his thing," who will make the connection and give the false description.

The guy the girls saw was dressed like Z when he attacked Bryan and Cecilia later on. As Morf and others here have said, "give the guy a haircut" (or remove the hairpiece) and put on glasses, and he looks like other sketches of Z. I have worn glasses since the 8th grade and I’m in my 50s now, and I often don’t wear them, in fact, I’m not wearing them as I type this. Just because someone normally wears glasses, doesn’t mean they are blind without them.

Because of the similarity in clothing and looks, setting aside the disguise, let’s assume for a minute it’s Z. In this scenario, Norse’s (typically) good points are, I think compelling.

Why does he get so close (50 feet, closer than a pitcher to a batter) to 3 people who get a good look at him? He isn’t going to debut Z "by knife" with 3 victims – that’s way too risky. He doesn’t need to get so close to see that there are in fact 3 of them. Hence, he isn’t stalking prey. Given the fact he never molested, posed, stripped any of his female victims, he wasn’t likely leering at them because of their female forms, either.

But this leads to another question I’ve been struggling with… Did he think he was leaving two corpses behind him at LB, or did he think they would survive at least long enough to describe his clothing (thus tying him to the disguised version of him the 3 girls saw?) This would have been very useful to him in this scenario. He had time to slit their throats wide open, but didn’t. If he intended them to survive long enough to tell their tale, everything he said (Deer Lodge, etc.) could’ve been pure BS meant to mislead.

Or did he think he had sufficiently creeped out those 3 girls, that the killing would still tie their description of him to the crime scene, even without Bryan being able to match up the clothes?

Bottom line, I think the guy was clever, but to leer at those 3 girls, giving them a really good close look at his undisguised face, and then go ahead and attack people a few hours later would have been really dumb. In that case he would’ve waited a week or two, or picked another location, to attack, so the connection would not have been made.

So this vuyeur had a car with a description. Did Bryan or Cecilia mention their attacker having a car nearby?

I ask because if the vuyeur was watching the girls from behind a tree (consistent with Z being behind a tree for a moment in one of the victims statements – was it Bryan?) and had a car around but wasn’t dressed in his mask/get up yet, perhaps he was scoping the place out in general. Im sure he wished he could have killed those girls, but there were 3 potential victims/witnesses there and the odds of one running off to get help before he could escape the scene was far too high IMO. Sure he could subdue 2, but 3? That would be a feat. In fact I’m sure he was considering whether or not he could pull it off… Fantasizing about killing them while watching them. But he was smart enough to pull back – smart enough to know his limits. Still, he would want to do something big, definitive – something that said "I’m zodiac and I’m back again scarier and more powerful than before" … If he couldn’t accomplish this by taking more than 2 victims at once, he could do it by terrorizing the victims with a personal stabbing assault rather than shooting, in an executioner outfit no less. And yes perhaps he didn’t slit their throats Bc he was hoping they would be able to talk and describe him before they died (if they died). He could have been allowing one to live long enough to tell of the ominous "executioner" that came and attacked them. Also to tell of the Montana connection which IMHO was moot and a set up by Zodiac to simply subdue the victims into thinking a compliance to robbery would save them before attacking them.

And Marshall, it may have been dumb of zodiac to come so close to the girls at Lake B, but consider that:

Maybe Zodiac was wearing a wig and lost his glasses in hopes that the appearance would be noted by the girls and described to police and the composite based on his contrived appearance would throw LE off to his actual appearance (sans Wig and with glasses). He would want to make the creepiness obvious to the girls while in his contrived "disguise" to the girls so it would hopefully be noted to LE and tied to the Zodiac.

(Also Without glasses on perhaps he didn’t realize just how close he was to the girls or had to get closer to see them properly? Lol idk)

It could be a mixture of all of this.

I’m assuming when he attacked he wore his executioner outfit that covered his face and such Bc he knew a struggle might make a wig fall off or he may not see properly without his glasses in his disguise – so out of necessity of keeping his actual identity of having glasses and shorter hair of a different color secret possibly he had to opt for his executioner get up – not the wig and sans glasses.