Rubbish, no. Sophistical and at times punctuated by rhetorical flourish, yes. I believe you possess greater depth than perhaps even you yourself realize, but due to your writing talent, it suffers neglect. Now, while I enjoy reading your posts as much as I enjoy good writing, from the standpoint of providing useful inferences based on known facts with which to arrive at my own conclusions regarding the case, I often feel the view from your mountain of prose not to be worth the climb.

Barring the unlikelihood that you yourself are the Zodiac or know who the Zodiac is but are withholding the information from the rest of us, your profile of the killer, whether real or affected, comes through as a tissue of fancy. Someone with your intellect surely has a great deal to offer this site, and once you have gained greater mastery of the facts, it wouldn’t surprise me if you become on of the best contributors here. I’m still acquainting myself with the case and ,yes, several times in my brief tenure on this site I just plain have "got it wrong" due to not being in possession of all the facts. I have come to realize that there are people here of prodigious intellect who have been parsing this case for years, and I must learn from them to obtain a clear understanding of it myself.

What do I mean by fact? Let me explain. There are statement of facts, one, for instance, in which I ask you to guess the correct length of a pencil. You are told the pencil is either 17.5" or 19.5" inches (for argument’s sake we’ll add "in this frame of reference" to rule out any relativistic effects). Before measurement of the pencils both "The pencil is 17.5" in length" and "The pencil is 19.5" in length" are both statements of fact. This is because each statement is verifiable (falsifiable); the pencil is or is not the stated length.

Measurement of the pencil establishes the truth value of the statements; that is, one of the two statements of fact has the truth value "true" while the other statement of fact is now assigned the truth value "false." For instance, if we measure the pencil at 19.5", the truth value of the statement "The pencil is 19.5" is "true." This does not make the statement "The pencil is 17.5" in length" any less a statement of fact, but it does make it falsified and therefore what people commonly refer to as nonfactual or false.

But why do I get the feeling that you already know this and are toying with us?

Edited for typos.

It’s a, let’s say, genre problem more than anything for me.

I’m not some sort of crazed champion of facts. I don’t demand them everywhere. I don’t even like them all that much. Believe me, at heart I’m very much a fiction kind of guy. But when someone is writing up a profile of Z, I expect assumptions to be based on facts (meaning: what is known about our boy and the case which bears his name), not inspiration and not mere statistics. This isn’t too much to ask, I think.

Me, personally, I have zero interest in attacking people for the sake of it. If someone is presenting ideas, no matter the nature, in an acceptable form, I will certainly not dissect their every word and be a general pain in the a**. That is not my style. Write a free flowing essay, suggest ANYTHING about ANYTHING – I won’t say a bad word about it. Write up what is supposed to be a profile of the "real Zodiac" – and it’s a different matter altogether. Claim that something is a fact or true, rather than an assumption or an inspired divination, and that is a different matter too.

Context is key, as they say. When people mix the cards in the Z case it bothers me, because the deck is hard enough to make sense of to begin with. I believe all of us are better off trying to distinguish as strictly as possible between what we actually KNOW and what has been proposed (reasonably or not) over the years.

Riddle me this.

I’m the king of the groove born of 032 and 280. Who am I?

Hi guys,

It’s I, davidfrancis. Sorry I’m rather early today. The boot on my broken ankle is restricting my ability to walk.

Come now guys don’t liken me to an SS quarterback. I’m throwing for the same side. I’m not here to start fires but to help you water them down.

“They met me in the day of success, and I have learned by the perfectest report they have more in them than mortal knowledge.”

Expressions of gratitude go out o Tahoe27, Mr Iowe, glurk, Theforeigner, Norse, traveller1st, and valleylife.

Okay, on with my obligatory replies.

1. Tahoe27’s comments: “Your opinion doesn’t make something factual. Many people come here with no knowledge of this case. It muddies the waters when you state something as a fact when it’s not. Please refrain from doing so.”
2. Youtube Video.

Tahoe27,

Since I view this as a “moderator’s warning”, your wish is my command!

3. Mr Iowe’s comment: “Dear members and your fluent pens.. I am taking a deep breath and a leap of faith. This forum is full of a whole range of smart intelligent men and women, who have a myriad of talents to offer, of which I am humbly a current member of and whom I admire. I wish to become a stalling point for the current position we are in on this topic. I believe we should all step back and accept without fear or favor everyone’s comments.. Let me say reading everyone’s comments will make us all the better. I have never been surrounded by so many intellects, it makes me feel like an apprentice serving his time..Never stop the banter nor the intellectual conversation that exudes.. davidfrancis has lots to offer, more than I can imagine, not blowin smoke here, I am not one for that, just don’t want to lose a potential member that has better insight than I ever will. Not that he would be scared off. Just that he might get tired.. Right or wrong this forum needs this guy. There is no right or wrong in a profile , Not until the culprit is in custody. Then we can look back and see. I respect you all, this is about the unravelling of the evil Z., not us.. And I’m no good with confrontation.. So lets move on! Cheers

Mr Iowe,

You sir, are someone I treasure. Three thousand years ago a large crowd had gathered along a mountain side. Everyone was at awe as the prophet began to speak. His Name was Jesus, the Son of God. When words flowed out of his mouth people paid attention. They had never before witnessed such powerful vocalisations. Throughout His teaching he had everyone mesmerised, and eight blessing were given. Mr Iowe, the blessing that best exemplifies your reply, and I assume your own self, and quoting Jesus “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” In your reply you have shown me more intellect than you will ever imagine and credit yourself with.

I thank you sir.

PS

Glurk and other moderators. If this post is viewed as breaking forum guidelines (religious connotation) I will gladly use another example. I’m not discussing religion, but merely exemplifying a reply.

4. Glurk’s comment: “Facts are stubborn things. -glurk “

glurk,

They certainly are, when you allow them to become a thorn in your flesh.

5. Theforeigner’s comment: “This is SO VERY TRUE & SO VERY IMPORTANT !!! Thank you Tahoe27 for that. Sure, you’re all entitled to express and share your own opinion, as long as you add the "I believe" / "in my opinion"/ "maybe"/ "possibly" etc, when you are theorizing things that is NOT 100% established facts. In all respect, I hope those in question get Tahoe27s + several other posters and my point?”

Theforeigner,

I understand I’m dealing with factual intellects. In future, I will adhere to a more stringent choice of words and/or language. I apologise, for my blunder.

Thank you.

6. Norse’s comments: “I’m not sure what your point is. Have people deliberately or innocently confused fact and fiction, fact and allegation, fact and assumption…and so forth…? Yes, of course they have. Is there sometimes a gray area to be considered, is it sometimes hard to know where fact ends and fiction (or assumption, or allegation) begins? Yes! Often. Do set phrases like "the fact is…" or "the fact that…" HAVE to refer to something factual? No, certainly not. What people refer to here, on this message board, when they speak of “fact” (versus assumption) is plain and clear, though: A “fact” is a thing which is known, which has been proven, which has been demonstrated beyond doubt to exist or be the case. It’s not that complicated. A palm print was found at location A. Zodiac used the misspelling “clews” in letter B. These are FACTS. Zodiac may have been a married, brown eyed guy with low income and issues with his mother – but these are NOT facts. The point has been made emphatically by now, I think: People don’t mind your assumptions and opinions – what they mind is when you present them as facts. Example (not factual, quite fictional, in fact):
You say it’s a fact Z was right handed. People: What do you base that on? You don’t know for a fact that he was right handed. You: It’s a fact that most people are right handed. This is a form of sophistry which doesn’t belong in a profile which you present as a serious one – and which you clearly expect others to take seriously.

“It’s a, let’s say, genre problem more than anything for me. I’m not some sort of crazed champion of facts. I don’t demand them everywhere. I don’t even like them all that much. Believe me, at heart I’m very much a fiction kind of guy. But when someone is writing up a profile of Z, I expect assumptions to be based on facts (meaning: what is known about our boy and the case which bears his name), not inspiration and not mere statistics. This isn’t too much to ask, I think. Me, personally, I have zero interest in attacking people for the sake of it. If someone is presenting ideas, no matter the nature, in an acceptable form, I will certainly not dissect their every word and be a general pain in the a**. That is not my style. Write a free flowing essay, suggest ANYTHING about ANYTHING – I won’t say a bad word about it. Write up what is supposed to be a profile of the "real Zodiac" – and it’s a different matter altogether. Claim that something is a fact or true, rather than an assumption or an inspired divination, and that is a different matter too. Context is key, as they say. When people mix the cards in the Z case it bothers me, because the deck is hard enough to make sense of to begin with. I believe all of us are better off trying to distinguish as strictly as possible between what we actually KNOW and what has been proposed (reasonably or not) over the years.”

Norse,

For the best part of two days I have wrestled myself to try and find a word that best describes you. I see intelligence, charm and fervour, coupled with a smidgen of humour. The word that I believe best exemplifies your personality is…”Debonair”

It’s pointless going into a “you said, I said” debate, so I will leave it there. Hang on, just a minute! I’ve just realised that “debonair” does not include another one of your personality characteristics, and that being the adjective “atrabilious”. That’s better…an “Atrabilious Debonair”

Thank you.

7. traveller1st comment: “Is that true?” “Riddle me this. I’m the king of the groove born of 032 and 280. Who am I?”

traveller1st,

First comment I say, touché. However, the second one leaves lost for words. I’m not very good with riddles. Could it be something out of William Golding’s “Lord of the Flies?”

8. valleylife’s comment: “Rubbish, no. Sophistical and at times punctuated by rhetorical flourish, yes. I believe you possess greater depth than perhaps even you yourself realize, but due to your writing talent, it suffers neglect. Now, while I enjoy reading your posts as much as I enjoy good writing, from the standpoint of providing useful inferences based on known facts with which to arrive at my own conclusions regarding the case, I often feel the view from your mountain of prose not to be worth the climb. Barring the unlikelihood that you yourself are the Zodiac or know who the Zodiac is but are withholding the information from the rest of us, your profile of the killer, whether real or affected, comes through as a tissue of fancy. Someone with your intellect surely has a great deal to offer this site, and once you have gained greater mastery of the facts, it wouldn’t surprise me if you become on of the best contributors here. I’m still acquainting myself with the case and ,yes, several times in my brief tenure on this site I just plain have "got it wrong" due to not being in possession of all the facts. I have come to realize that there are people here of prodigious intellect who have been parsing this case for years, and I must learn from them to obtain a clear understanding of it myself. What do I mean by fact? Let me explain. There are statement of facts, one, for instance, in which I ask you to guess the correct length of a pencil. You are told the pencil is either 17.5" or 19.5" inches (for argument’s sake we’ll add "in this frame of reference" to rule out any relativistic effects). Before measurement of the pencils both "The pencil is 17.5" in length" and "The pencil is 19.5" in length" are both statements of fact. This is because each statement is verifiable (falsifiable); the pencil is or is not the stated length.
Measurement of the pencil establishes the truth value of the statements; that is, one of the two statements of fact has the truth value "true" while the other statement of fact is now assigned the truth value "false." For instance, if we measure the pencil at 19.5", the truth value of the statement "The pencil is 19.5" is "true." This does not make the statement "The pencil is 17.5" in length" any less a statement of fact, but it does make it falsified and therefore what people commonly refer to as nonfactual or false. But why do I get the feeling that you already know this and are toying with us? Edited for typos.

valleylife,

Not wanting to place unwanted strain on your jaded legs (mountain climbing without the proper equipment can lead to disaster) here’s a YouTube video for you to enjoy. Remember to (whilst you are sitting down) rub some deep heat on those poor limbs of yours.

Feed me valleylife: http://youtu.be/L7SkrYF8lCU

7. traveller1st comment: “Is that true?” “Riddle me this. I’m the king of the groove born of 032 and 280. Who am I?”

traveller1st,

First comment I say, touché. However, the second one leaves lost for words. I’m not very good with riddles. Could it be something out of William Golding’s “Lord of the Flies?”

Nope.

I actually worried it might have been too obvious. Apparently not.

Ok.

The STYLUS is oft found in the groove.
The King REIGNS.
Born of 032 (Pantone red) and 280 (Pantone blue) which combined make PURPLE … is a BOY.

Cool eh?

7. traveller1st comment: “Is that true?” “Riddle me this. I’m the king of the groove born of 032 and 280. Who am I?”

traveller1st,

First comment I say, touché. However, the second one leaves lost for words. I’m not very good with riddles. Could it be something out of William Golding’s “Lord of the Flies?”

Nope.

I actually worried it might have been too obvious. Apparently not.

Ok.

The STYLUS is oft found in the groove.
The King REIGNS.
Born of 032 (Pantone red) and 280 (Pantone blue) which combined make PURPLE … is a BOY.

Cool eh?

What is "Prince" – ?

To save anyone else the bother. The answer is already there and DF knows what it means. A reasonable guess though murray given the words.

Hi guys,

Norse,

For the best part of two days I have wrestled myself to try and find a word that best describes you. I see intelligence, charm and fervour, coupled with a smidgen of humour. The word that I believe best exemplifies your personality is…”Debonair”

It’s pointless going into a “you said, I said” debate, so I will leave it there. Hang on, just a minute! I’ve just realised that “debonair” does not include another one of your personality characteristics, and that being the adjective “atrabilious”. That’s better…an “Atrabilious Debonair”

Thank you.

Thanks, Dave.

I like that. Now, if I could only strike it rich…I could call myself a debonair, atrabilious billionaire.

To save anyone else the bother. The answer is already there and DF knows what it means. A reasonable guess though murray given the words.

I love riddles, but I’m not good at solving them.

Does it have something to do with music? And elements?

To save anyone else the bother. The answer is already there and DF knows what it means. A reasonable guess though murray given the words.

I love riddles, but I’m not good at solving them.

Does it have something to do with music? And elements?

That doesn’t bode well considering the purpose of this forum lol.

… and no it doesn’t.

It has more to do with boomerangs and tinned ham tbh.

Oh dear. That is all.

EDIT This could refer to several things. Not least that I am, truly, terrible at solving riddles.

3. Mr Iowe’s comment: “Dear members and your fluent pens.. I am taking a deep breath and a leap of faith. This forum is full of a whole range of smart intelligent men and women, who have a myriad of talents to offer, of which I am humbly a current member of and whom I admire. I wish to become a stalling point for the current position we are in on this topic. I believe we should all step back and accept without fear or favor everyone’s comments.. Let me say reading everyone’s comments will make us all the better. I have never been surrounded by so many intellects, it makes me feel like an apprentice serving his time..Never stop the banter nor the intellectual conversation that exudes.. davidfrancis has lots to offer, more than I can imagine, not blowin smoke here, I am not one for that, just don’t want to lose a potential member that has better insight than I ever will. Not that he would be scared off. Just that he might get tired.. Right or wrong this forum needs this guy. There is no right or wrong in a profile , Not until the culprit is in custody. Then we can look back and see. I respect you all, this is about the unravelling of the evil Z., not us.. And I’m no good with confrontation.. So lets move on! Cheers

Mr Iowe,

You sir, are someone I treasure. Three thousand years ago a large crowd had gathered along a mountain side. Everyone was at awe as the prophet began to speak. His Name was Jesus, the Son of God. When words flowed out of his mouth people paid attention. They had never before witnessed such powerful vocalisations. Throughout His teaching he had everyone mesmerised, and eight blessing were given. Mr Iowe, the blessing that best exemplifies your reply, and I assume your own self, and quoting Jesus “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” In your reply you have shown me more intellect than you will ever imagine and credit yourself with.

I thank you sir.

Well, this is just an odd conversation to me. Not sure how you (Mr. lowe) are so sure of all DF has to offer, but…ok.

Looks like you have a fan. Double

I don’t consider myself and factual tyrant, but I like separate, compartmentalize fact from fiction as tide from turn arises, there glowing in the sublimity of Shakespeare’s or Keats’ glorious, breathing verse, not giving a fig about facts, or here, in an august stoa where the drachma and dictates of reason hold scepter. Whoa, did that leave a bombastic taste in my mouth! But seriously, dude, welcome aboard! I can see we’re going to have to cut along the inner perforations of your diffuse intellect to enjoy the marrow. Bleh.

Personally, I’m still puzzled over this odd statement:

We developed verbal communication, a characteristic that eventually lead Thomas Edison to invent the first electrical generator in 1831

Since, as we know (it is a fact), Thomas Edison was born in 1847. I wish that I could have invented something so useful 16 years before my birth. I’d be a rich man before I became a teenager!

-glurk

Hello guys, davidfrancis here.

Finally, we seem to have peace and harmony in the colony. The queen rules the nest, the workers clean up the mess, and the soldiers have retracted their stings. All in all, the Banzai pheromone seems to have disappeared…for now!

Seriously guys, it’s great to see a bit of light heartedness appearing amongst the posts. Thank you for making me feel welcome.

1. traveller1st comment: “To save anyone else the bother. The answer is already there and DF knows what it means. A reasonable guess though murray given the words.” “It has more to do with boomerangs and tinned ham tbh.”

traveller1st,

Seriously sir, I know about as much as what you are saying, as Benjamin Franklin did about threading worms on a fishing hook. Boomerangs? Tinned ham?

Moreover, I found your explanation of the riddle rather ingenious to say the least. Your ability to bridge numerical colorimetry to literary devices is commendable. However, I’m not certain if you are aware of the fact that there are 32 Kabbalistic Paths of wisdom. Furthermore, the year 280 saw the birth of St. Nicholas, who became commonly known as Father Christmass.

Thank you

2. Norse’s comment: “Thanks, Dave. I like that. Now, if I could only strike it rich…I could call myself a debonair, atrabilious billionaire.”

Norse,

I’m glad you see the funny side of it. Humour wins in the end. There nothing stopping you from attaining the title of Debonair Atrabilious Billionaire. Become like all the others who have created a mythological Zodiac and publish a book. The catch, of course, would you include facts? HaHaHa.

3. Tahoe27’s comment: “Well, this is just an odd conversation to me. Not sure how you (Mr. lowe) are so sure of all DF has to offer, but…ok. Looks like you have a fan. Double

Tahoe27,

I’m finding you a tough walnut to crack. Lighten up, you might find that I’m not that bad after all. It seems I’ve been able to OFFER some members a humoristic channel. You can always use your remote control and change the channel you a currently viewing. You might find some benefit from it.

Thank you.

4. valleylife’s comment: “I don’t consider myself and factual tyrant, but I like separate, compartmentalize fact from fiction as tide from turn arises, there glowing in the sublimity of Shakespeare’s or Keats’ glorious, breathing verse, not giving a fig about facts, or here, in an august stoa where the drachma and dictates of reason hold scepter. Whoa, did that leave a bombastic taste in my mouth! But seriously, dude, welcome aboard! I can see we’re going to have to cut along the inner perforations of your diffuse intellect to enjoy the marrow. Bleh.”

valleylife,

Wow, a mix of Socrates, Antoninus Pius, and a hint of Macbethianism in your reply. I was beginning to have my doubts about you. You’ve finally hit a home run and reached home base. Result: 9-0. Btw, thank you for the welcome and it’s great to be here. Peace.

PS

My aunt Alice has a great recipe for hot marrow soup if you are interested.

Thank you.

5. Norse’s comment: "Since, as we know (it is a fact), Thomas Edison was born in 1847. I wish that I could have invented something so useful 16 years before my birth. I’d be a rich man before I became a teenager! -glurk"

Norse,

Hoops! I did forget to type the word "developed" after "generator". Sorry everyone. My replies are both cumbersome to read and write.