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Tyre tracks

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mildlycerous
(@mildlycerous)
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I tried searching and couldn’t find this being brought up before. I’ve been listening to the audiobook of Graysmith’s Zodiac and just before the Lake Berryessa attack, at the part that the Surgeon/Dr and his son see the stocky man who had been watching them, etc. It is stated that his car had been parked behind theirs because there were tyre tracks left behind. My question is this; Did they ever check those tracks against the tracks that were left near the Karmann Ghia. As the Berryessa attack tracks were quite unique, having different tyres, it would prove this was the same man stalking victims. :ugeek:

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 12:03 pm
(@anonymous)
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No tyre tracks were retrieved by investigators near Dr. Clifton Rayfield’s vehicle, so no comparison could ever have been made.

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 12:10 pm
mildlycerous
(@mildlycerous)
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Thanks for his name, I’ll look more up about it :)

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 12:29 pm
(@anonymous)
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This is what Napa County Sheriff’s Department detective Ken Narlow said "Dr. Clifton Rayfield, an ophthalmologist, and his son, David, had parked their car four-fifths of a mile further up the road from Hartnell’s Karmann Ghia. Rayfield reported to me that at approximately 6:30 P.M. he and his son had parked their vehicle north of Park Headquarters . . . in the general area of the crime scene and walked down toward the beach. While en route Rayfield observed a WMA described as five feet ten inches, heavy build, wearing dark trousers and a long-sleeved dark shirt with red coloring. Rayfield and his son both stated that they had not observed a vehicle parked in the area of their car,” He continued “I think their time was off a little bit ’cause I think Rayfield actually saw the Zodiac killer just prior to him going south four-fifths of a mile to where Shephard and Hartnell had their car parked. It sure looks like he stumbled on them and had not followed them. I’m convinced that Zodiac was just stalking any singular parked cars along the route. And that’s why he stopped when he saw Rayfield’s car there. When he saw the father and son and they saw him, he decided to go back up to his car. Then he drove down the road a little ways and saw the white Karmann Ghia. Then he came down here and saw a boy and a girl laying on this blanket under this oak tree, and this is what his game was, to kill the boy and the girl. This is why he struck here and not further up the road.”

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 12:34 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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When was this quoted and where are you quoting it from, Richard?


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 5:54 pm
(@anonymous)
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Robert Graysmith-Zodiac book.

 
Posted : August 2, 2017 11:07 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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Thanks!


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 12:11 am
(@anonymous)
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In Zodiac Unmasked by Robert Graysmith, David Rayfield stated "I saw ‘Zodiac’ at a distance of about one hundred yards, so I wouldn’t be able to comment on his face. He was walking along the hillside about halfway between the road and the lake. But I remember him as being a stockier person. He wasn’t nimble when he was walking. And when he turned to walk away he wasn’t like a smooth, athletic person. To me he seemed a little overweight and on the clumsier side. Not having followed the story or ever having been re-interviewed by the police, I didn’t realize ‘Zodiac’ came upon us just before he stabbed the young couple. I sort of assumed I saw him making his getaway. I’ll tell you one thing, he didn’t like the fact I was carrying a gun. He turns and looks at me and my gun (which with its scope was pretty intimidating) for probably five, six seconds, and then turned and went up the hill up in a southerly direction. I said to myself, ‘That was funny. This guy wasn’t carrying a fishing pole. There’s no camping equipment. There’s no gun. What’s he doing out here?’”
Napa County Sheriff’s Department detective Ken Narlow would add "The kid had a .22 rifle, and ‘Zodiac’ came down within one hundred yards of them across an inlet. The kid saw the guy over there and he was wearing the blue windbreaker jacket. But evidently this wasn’t what he was looking for because it was a father-and-son deal. So the killer went a quarter mile up this road, went back up to the road, and evidently came down the road this way and saw this single car parked here, and then pulled in behind it. Rayfield and his son both stated that they had not observed a vehicle parked in the area of their car, and had only noticed the subject at a distance of approximately one hundred yards. Rayfield did report that there was a man with two young boys in the area shooting BB guns, but didn’t know whether or not they saw the subject. “I think their time was off a little bit ’cause I think Rayfield actually saw the Zodiac killer just prior to him going south four-fifths of a mile to where Shephard and Hartnell had their car parked. It sure looks like he stumbled on them and had not followed them. I’m convinced that Zodiac was just stalking any singular parked cars along the route. And that’s why he stopped when he saw Rayfield’s car there. When he saw the father and son and they saw him, he decided to go back up to his car. Then he drove down the road a little ways and saw the white Karmann Ghia. Then he came down here and saw a boy and a girl laying on this blanket under this oak tree, and this is what his game was, to kill the boy and the girl. This is why he struck here and not further up the road.”

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 1:44 am
mildlycerous
(@mildlycerous)
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This is what Napa County Sheriff’s Department detective Ken Narlow said "Dr. Clifton Rayfield, an ophthalmologist, and his son, David, had parked their car four-fifths of a mile further up the road from Hartnell’s Karmann Ghia. Rayfield reported to me that at approximately 6:30 P.M. he and his son had parked their vehicle north of Park Headquarters . . . in the general area of the crime scene and walked down toward the beach. While en route Rayfield observed a WMA described as five feet ten inches, heavy build, wearing dark trousers and a long-sleeved dark shirt with red coloring. Rayfield and his son both stated that they had not observed a vehicle parked in the area of their car,” He continued “I think their time was off a little bit ’cause I think Rayfield actually saw the Zodiac killer just prior to him going south four-fifths of a mile to where Shephard and Hartnell had their car parked. It sure looks like he stumbled on them and had not followed them. I’m convinced that Zodiac was just stalking any singular parked cars along the route. And that’s why he stopped when he saw Rayfield’s car there. When he saw the father and son and they saw him, he decided to go back up to his car. Then he drove down the road a little ways and saw the white Karmann Ghia. Then he came down here and saw a boy and a girl laying on this blanket under this oak tree, and this is what his game was, to kill the boy and the girl. This is why he struck here and not further up the road.”

Was this Zodiac Unmasked or the first book?

I found the report you quoted from and indeed no mention of trye tracks left behind Dr. Clifton’s car. http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport6.html

The audiobook explicitly states "Tyre tracks show the stocky man’s car was parked directly behind the dentist’s car."

I’ll just assume that this is artistic licence on Graysmith’s part? Along with ophthalmology being a specialisation of the eyes and not teeth.

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 1:56 am
(@anonymous)
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That is from Unmasked. I have located the section you started the thread with in the Robert Graysmith-Zodiac book.
It states "Tyre tracks showed the stocky man’s car was parked directly behind the dentist’s car." as you say.
But in Unmasked it states "Rayfield and his son both stated that they had not observed a vehicle parked in the area of their car". Yes, Rayfield also changed professions while he was at Lake Berryessa he went from a dentist to an ophthalmologist. Dr Rayfield and his son David were there, but you have to root out the errors in the Graysmith books. If there had been a car behind Rayfield’s vehicle, I’m sure it would have been noted by investigators, which it is not in the very extensive police report. But I believe it was the killer they observed. "WMA described as five feet ten inches, heavy build, wearing dark trousers and a long-sleeved dark shirt with red coloring".

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 2:11 am
(@druzer)
Posts: 229
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Richard, in this article on your site http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-new … -scene-pt2 you suggest that Narlow’s theory that Zodiac was looking for lone cars and pursued Rayfield’s as a potential opportunity didn’t jive well with the timeline. Hartnell had parked an hour before him and therefore Rayfield may very well have spotted Zodiac complete with red colouring after the crime. The timing you outlined was tight but still allowed Zodiac to get to the Napa payphone in time. I hope I have presented the summary of this argument accurately and that you don’t mind me doing so on the board here.

Considering the timing, the description, and the behaviour of the man strangely discouraged by the child’s presence I feel this has to be Zodiac. Are there significant reasons to doubt this identification?

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 3:39 am
(@anonymous)
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Yes I believe this was probably Zodiac. David Rayfield, the son, later stated that his father didn’t see the man as soon as they parked up at 6.30 pm. They had traveled down to do a spot of fishing. It was a short time later they spotted the man. I estimate this time to be 6.50-6.55 pm. Because the man was described as having red coloring on his clothing, and seemingly keen to avoid Dr Rayfield & son, it could be argued this was after the attack. The timeline fits nicely. Zodiac writes on the vehicle of Bryan Hartnell at 6.30 pm, then walks the 0.8 miles north to his vehicle. He naturally keeps off the shoreline and road, because he is covered in blood. This 0.8 mile journey is 20-25 minutes walking time, placing him near Dr Rayfield & son (likely at his vehicle) at 6.55 pm. The journey time of 45 minutes to the Napa payphone is spot on. Had the Zodiac left in a car parked behind Bryan Hartnell’s vehicle at approximately 6.30 pm, we have 1 hour and 10 minutes to account for- 25 minutes too long. This 25 minutes is taken care of, with the journey 0.8 miles north. There are two small roads off Knoxville Rd by Dr Rayfield’s vehicle, one slightly south and north. Had Zodiac parked in either of these, his vehicle would never have been spotted by the doctor. If he was the man spotted by the three girls earlier, he drives slightly south at 4.30 pm, parks up somewhere near where Rayfield eventually parked, walks down to the area of Big Island scouring for victims. I believe he is just scouring the hillside. At around 5.00 pm he walks south and spots Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard park up at about 5.20 -5.25 pm. They walk down the hill and find a suitable spot at 5.30-5.40 pm. The Zodiac likely observes them from a distance for a while, as he may have done with the girls. He remained observing them, by their accounts, for between 30 – 45 minutes. He is understandably applying caution and waiting for a clear window to attack. At 6.10 pm or thereabouts he makes his move down the hill and approaches the couple. After the attack he writes on the car door and traverses the hillside, slightly off the road back north. Rayfield spots the blooded clothing, described as red coloring at 6.50 pm. Zodiac reaches his vehicle and drives away circa 6.55 pm. The 45 minute journey to the Napa payphone has him placing the call at exactly 7.40 pm. I cannot prove it, but there is a distinct possibility Zodiac never parked near the Karmann Ghia.

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 11:43 am
(@druzer)
Posts: 229
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Fantastic timeline work Richard! This read of the geography and timing makes sense of the entire ordeal. I really can’t imagine how you get through these darn things! So, regarding tire tracks, there is nothing but yellow book to put Z’s car behind Hartnell’s or the Rayfield’s. Zodiac was likely parked out out of sight on one of the two small roads off the north side of Knoxville Rd. Thank you so much for sharing!

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 9:32 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
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That has been my take as well, Richard. Of course I have expressed my thoughts elsewhere.

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/5 … YNibIQrK70 (I’ll fix the PB images in just a bit—fixed.)

I might add that at one point he could have pulled in behind Bryan’s car, but I don’t think his car remained there during the attack. I too think he walked north.

Law Enforcement did (of course) consider the tire tracks behind Bryan’s car–they took measurements,etc. They were, of course, 20 feet behind the Karmann Ghia. It wasn’t like their attacker pulled right up behind Bryan’s car to help further shelter himself when writing on the door. Really, those tire tracks could have been left there earlier (by anyone)—but, had they found the guy, the could prove he was there, if his car HAD they been a match.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : August 3, 2017 9:50 pm
mildlycerous
(@mildlycerous)
Posts: 27
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Topic starter
 

That is from Unmasked. I have located the section you started the thread with in the Robert Graysmith-Zodiac book.
It states "Tyre tracks showed the stocky man’s car was parked directly behind the dentist’s car." as you say.
But in Unmasked it states "Rayfield and his son both stated that they had not observed a vehicle parked in the area of their car". Yes, Rayfield also changed professions while he was at Lake Berryessa he went from a dentist to an ophthalmologist. Dr Rayfield and his son David were there, but you have to root out the errors in the Graysmith books. If there had been a car behind Rayfield’s vehicle, I’m sure it would have been noted by investigators, which it is not in the very extensive police report. But I believe it was the killer they observed. "WMA described as five feet ten inches, heavy build, wearing dark trousers and a long-sleeved dark shirt with red coloring".

Thank you for taking the time to explain Richard. I’ve bookmarked your website ;)

 
Posted : August 10, 2017 4:22 pm
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