i’m not aware that he saw the kids or knew anyone was calling the police for sure. the kids were inside a house looking out a window with no lights on. i assume his movements were based on his guess of how long it would take anyone to notice what was going on. there’s also the possibility that he shot stine a block up and the cab kept going when stine let his foot off the brake. this may not have been part of zodiac’s plan and may give us a clue as to why he would have touched things that then needed to be wiped down.

I agree with you. I would imagine Zodiac had no idea the kids were watching him. I assume by selecting that location and time for the murder that he thought he had the time to take the piece of Stine’s shirt and then get away in no particular hurry.

Not asking these questions from a point of view because I don’t have a favorite suspect or theory. But it seems like one of two things might be true. Either he lived in the area and escaped to his residence or he got out of the area by car quicker than is popularly accepted. To me (granting that I may be completely misunderstanding the situation) it is hard to imagine he either wanted to move into the Presidio or successfully hid there.

If the hospital was on a standard 7a-3p; 3p-11p; 11p-7a shift for certain workers, he could’ve just clocked in and gone to work at 11 p.m. There’s nothing strange about seeing somebody covered in bliod at a hospital.

Not asking these questions from a point of view because I don’t have a favorite suspect or theory. But it seems like one of two things might be true. Either he lived in the area and escaped to his residence or he got out of the area by car quicker than is popularly accepted. To me (granting that I may be completely misunderstanding the situation) it is hard to imagine he either wanted to move into the Presidio or successfully hid there.

If the hospital was on a standard 7a-3p; 3p-11p; 11p-7a shift for certain workers, he could’ve just clocked in and gone to work at 11 p.m. There’s nothing strange about seeing somebody covered in bliod at a hospital.

He was probably able to escape the Stine scene because the original ABP described the killer as a black male. He was ignorant to the fact he had been seen, and the cops were ignorant to the fact he was white. It was dumb luck he got away.

i’m not aware that he saw the kids or knew anyone was calling the police for sure. the kids were inside a house looking out a window with no lights on. i assume his movements were based on his guess of how long it would take anyone to notice what was going on. there’s also the possibility that he shot stine a block up and the cab kept going when stine let his foot off the brake. this may not have been part of zodiac’s plan and may give us a clue as to why he would have touched things that then needed to be wiped down.

I have heard that her turned and made eye contact with the teens looking out the window. Unfortunately, I don’t remember how I heard that.

Just a random thought but if he owned a van if he was able to get to it he would be able to get in and hide out of sight. Could have stayed there all night and left in morning. Like I said a random thought but who knows?
charliemartin

didn’t most of them live in the area? lol Pretty sure Kane ran to see the nurse at presidio…she must have put and two together, MOVED, he followed her and killed her claiming it as z. Reward poster is a message to fake killer (kane) from real killer cuz he got the victim number wrong and it pissed off real Z and his movie plans lol

Either they were BOTH there…possibly Sullivan went to mikado and afterwards picked up kane who gave him a gun, and he got out at the stop (leaving HIS gloves in cab?) and the cabbie moved a bit ahead, then he shot him and they both took off. One going off to presidio and hiding in the bushes (or JUST presidio/bushes) and one going home. Sullivan lived 5 blocks away at a YMCA hotel right? Kane also live in the theater district too…
OR Kane killed stein and hid in bushes and then went to presdio and saw lass….etc OR Sullivan killed stine and went home? lol
OR Sullivan went to mikado and since he THOUGHT he was the executioner, killed stein after for proof.
I still think it doesn’t make sense because we got two perps…but if so then WHO had the shirt?

TOO MANY whacko’s ALL in one place every time is the oddest thing to me…

>>TOO MANY whacko’s ALL in one place every time is the oddest thing to me..<<

I think only Lawrence Kane lived in San Francisco at the time of Stine’s killing. Don’t think he had a car when living there.

>>TOO MANY whacko’s ALL in one place every time is the oddest thing to me..<<

You should live in Florida.

The immediate aftermath of the Stine shooting is confusing to me.

If the shooting of Stine was planned and not impulsive you would assume Zodiac planned an escape. Part of that plan likely was the murder would not be detected as soon as it was. After all, he takes the time to cut off a piece of Stine’s shirt and wipe down portions of the car (I’m curious as to how long that took because I don’t see that time accounted for in the timelines I see put forward). But the kids seeing him and calling the police put him in a position he had not planned on. Now he’s on the move and possibly encounters the police. But where is he moving to? Assuming he was the person the police encountered the direction he sends them is away from his avenue of escape (which I’m assuming is by car parked on some street). That raises questions. Who were the witnesses who reported seeing him run into the Presidio grounds and why would he go there instead of to his vehicle? And if he is inside the Presidio perimeter where did he hide? If you go to Google Earth and look at the historical imagery there is not a lot of cover there (granted, the most recent imagery to the crime is in the 1980s). And if newspaper accounts and police reports are accurate the police presence in the area likely was there for a considerable period of time. How does Zodiac get back to his vehicle and leave undetected? What was even the point of crossing Pacific Avenue in the first place and where did he cross? And remember, he’s armed. He’s killed once and if the obstacle to his escape is an officer he could have used force again.

Not asking these questions from a point of view because I don’t have a favorite suspect or theory. But it seems like one of two things might be true. Either he lived in the area and escaped to his residence or he got out of the area by car quicker than is popularly accepted. To me (granting that I may be completely misunderstanding the situation) it is hard to imagine he either wanted to move into the Presidio or successfully hid there.

So, both Rodelli & Sandy have good theories about what might have happened: 1) Rodelli thinks Z was Qvale and that he just went back to his house; 2) Sandy and many others posit that Z rented a room in PH, which is possible. I think he had a vehicle nearby and drove the search area, parking at various times to watch/listen to the search and moving around so as to avoid detection. I can posit a number of theories: 1) he posed as a homeless person in the park (he could have stashed a tent in the park with some older clothes and hid out; 2) he could have been picked up by someone on Jackson after Fouke spots him; 3) he could have caught a bus out of the area; 4) he could have stashed a vehicle or bicycle nearby.

A number of people blame the NMA/BMA description for Z getting away. I disagree. Let’s assume Fouke knows he’s looking for a Caucasian. If he spots a guy walking down the street, he doesn’t have probable cause to arrest him. All he can do is stop him for questioning. Let’s assume Rodelli is right and his suspect is Zodiac. Fouke questions him, and Z says, "I’m Kjell Qvale and I live at 3636 Jackson St." Fouke wouldn’t have arrested or detained him further UNLESS he spots blood on his clothes or a bulge in his jacket that appears to be a gun. A think jacket can easily hide a gun. If Z is Qvale, he had to be wearing a thick jacket or layers to look bulky…Qvale was a bean pole. If Z is not Qvale, Fouke would probably stop him and ask some basic questions. Again, all Z had to do is stay calm and provide reasonable answers. Unless Fouke spots what appears to be blood or a gun, he can’t pat Z down, nor can he detain him. The only way he is identified as the killer is if Pelissetti or Peda brings one of the witnesses to Jackson to ID him. If Fouke detains Z to move him back to Washington & Cherry, he is in effect making an arrest, which must be supported by probable cause. If he makes the arrest without probable cause, the exclusionary rule can suppress any subsequent ID by witnesses and any physical evidence recovered from a search. SFPD may have identified the Stine’s killer, but they would have no evidence to bring against him. Z would probably never write a letter linking this crime to the other murders. SFPD would not have an actionable case against the perp.

I don’t think stopping Z would have made a difference in the case. Z would have to have panicked or triggered Fouke’s suspicion. Fouke was on record stating that he was very deferential to PH residents. So, if he thought Z lived in the area, he may not have asked him many questions.

The immediate aftermath of the Stine shooting is confusing to me.

If the shooting of Stine was planned and not impulsive you would assume Zodiac planned an escape. Part of that plan likely was the murder would not be detected as soon as it was. After all, he takes the time to cut off a piece of Stine’s shirt and wipe down portions of the car (I’m curious as to how long that took because I don’t see that time accounted for in the timelines I see put forward). But the kids seeing him and calling the police put him in a position he had not planned on. Now he’s on the move and possibly encounters the police. But where is he moving to? Assuming he was the person the police encountered the direction he sends them is away from his avenue of escape (which I’m assuming is by car parked on some street). That raises questions. Who were the witnesses who reported seeing him run into the Presidio grounds and why would he go there instead of to his vehicle? And if he is inside the Presidio perimeter where did he hide? If you go to Google Earth and look at the historical imagery there is not a lot of cover there (granted, the most recent imagery to the crime is in the 1980s). And if newspaper accounts and police reports are accurate the police presence in the area likely was there for a considerable period of time. How does Zodiac get back to his vehicle and leave undetected? What was even the point of crossing Pacific Avenue in the first place and where did he cross? And remember, he’s armed. He’s killed once and if the obstacle to his escape is an officer he could have used force again.

Not asking these questions from a point of view because I don’t have a favorite suspect or theory. But it seems like one of two things might be true. Either he lived in the area and escaped to his residence or he got out of the area by car quicker than is popularly accepted. To me (granting that I may be completely misunderstanding the situation) it is hard to imagine he either wanted to move into the Presidio or successfully hid there.

So, both Rodelli & Sandy have good theories about what might have happened: 1) Rodelli thinks Z was Qvale and that he just went back to his house; 2) Sandy and many others posit that Z rented a room in PH, which is possible. I think he had a vehicle nearby and drove the search area, parking at various times to watch/listen to the search and moving around so as to avoid detection. I can posit a number of theories: 1) he posed as a homeless person in the park (he could have stashed a tent in the park with some older clothes and hid out; 2) he could have been picked up by someone on Jackson after Fouke spots him; 3) he could have caught a bus out of the area; 4) he could have stashed a vehicle or bicycle nearby.

A number of people blame the NMA/BMA description for Z getting away. I disagree. Let’s assume Fouke knows he’s looking for a Caucasian. If he spots a guy walking down the street, he doesn’t have probable cause to arrest him. All he can do is stop him for questioning. Let’s assume Rodelli is right and his suspect is Zodiac. Fouke questions him, and Z says, "I’m Kjell Qvale and I live at 3636 Jackson St." Fouke wouldn’t have arrested or detained him further UNLESS he spots blood on his clothes or a bulge in his jacket that appears to be a gun. A think jacket can easily hide a gun. If Z is Qvale, he had to be wearing a thick jacket or layers to look bulky…Qvale was a bean pole. If Z is not Qvale, Fouke would probably stop him and ask some basic questions. Again, all Z had to do is stay calm and provide reasonable answers. Unless Fouke spots what appears to be blood or a gun, he can’t pat Z down, nor can he detain him. The only way he is identified as the killer is if Pelissetti or Peda brings one of the witnesses to Jackson to ID him. If Fouke detains Z to move him back to Washington & Cherry, he is in effect making an arrest, which must be supported by probable cause. If he makes the arrest without probable cause, the exclusionary rule can suppress any subsequent ID by witnesses and any physical evidence recovered from a search. SFPD may have identified the Stine’s killer, but they would have no evidence to bring against him. Z would probably never write a letter linking this crime to the other murders. SFPD would not have an actionable case against the perp.

I don’t think stopping Z would have made a difference in the case. Z would have to have panicked or triggered Fouke’s suspicion. Fouke was on record stating that he was very deferential to PH residents. So, if he thought Z lived in the area, he may not have asked him many questions.

I think it’s all rather simple. If they had the correct description clearly they would stop and talk to the guy. And confer with the Police who took the initial descriptions of the suspect over radio or what else, Him matching the description is enough probable cause. If the Zodiac is able to show ID or proves he lives nearby. Maybe he could blag his way out of it. But no chance they are letting this guy go otherwise.

If Zodiac had been stopped in such a manner he may not even have tried to blag his way through any questioning he may of tried to escape for all we know.

Keeping cool after you have just Killed someone and are now being interviewed/questioned by police is no easy feat.