Does anyone have any knowledge about the DNA database used by the department of defence for identifying MIA/POW soldiers?

Things like how big the database is? do they retain physical dna samples?

I don’t want to tell my American friends what to do but IF they have DNA believed to be the Zodiacs they should probably start there, there is plenty in this case to suggest he was military.

I’m not suggesting he was anything or anyone rather such a database is invaluable.

Please, someone, correct me if I’m wrong in this assumption. Suppose LE has a good sample, and therefore a DNA sequence. If they can still access a large DNA registry, as was done to identify GSK, can’t they just run a database query to find the closest match and then use that as a starting point?

I think of the universe…. a DNA fairly close match might put you in the right galaxy, maybe even the right star system, but equally important, it would eliminate all the parts of the universe that were too distant. They might not need a suspect’s DNA to eliminate him – if their Z sample is pointing in a certain direction (nationality, for instance) that is not where that suspect’s relatives reside in the DNA tree. So if the DNA they have is too dissimilar to the third cousin of a major suspect, for example, then maybe it can be established that Z and that suspect are not related.

What I’m saying is, if LE has a good DNA sequence for Z, and if they have access to one or several large databases with family tree DNA sequences, couldn’t a query point them in a general direction that would simultaneously point them away from many of our favorite suspects?

Please, someone, correct me if I’m wrong in this assumption. Suppose LE has a good sample, and therefore a DNA sequence. If they can still access a large DNA registry, as was done to identify GSK, can’t they just run a database query to find the closest match and then use that as a starting point?

I think of the universe…. a DNA fairly close match might put you in the right galaxy, maybe even the right star system, but equally important, it would eliminate all the parts of the universe that were too distant. They might not need a suspect’s DNA to eliminate him – if their Z sample is pointing in a certain direction (nationality, for instance) that is not where that suspect’s relatives reside in the DNA tree. So if the DNA they have is too dissimilar to the third cousin of a major suspect, for example, then maybe it can be established that Z and that suspect are not related.

What I’m saying is, if LE has a good DNA sequence for Z, and if they have access to one or several large databases with family tree DNA sequences, couldn’t a query point them in a general direction that would simultaneously point them away from many of our favorite suspects?

it’s a little more complicated than that. they were using gedmatch which recently shut out law enforcement from using their database without a warrant. even with gedmatch you only had a few million dna profiles so you’re hoping to hit on one that matches enough to be a distant cousin. then the legwork of doing the family tree for this distant cousin to see who down the line might match what you know about your suspect – sometimes it’s "there’s a branch of the cousin’s tree that lived in the same state we think our suspect lives in", other times it’s "there is a last name associated with the branch of the tree our suspect is in, so we want to find similar last named suspects". it’s not easy work, there isn’t always the right dna profile to find a close enough familial link, and even when there is there’s no guarantee you’re going to be able to track down every branch of the subsequent family tree.

Hi,

I was watching a cold case show out of Massachusetts last night. Parabon did a phenotype sketch of the individual from DNA recovered form a crime scene in 1992. It took a year and a half to do! I have no idea if a)any authentic DNA from the letters that might have been recovered by VPD would be complete enough to do such an analysis and b) if they were able to recover matching samples of same DNA from different letters (hopefully, unlike SFPD’s mess!) in order to know that such potential DNA is actually from the letter writer but this cryptic announcement by Voigt and Morf that there will be "news" in 2020 may have to do with how long it seems to take Parabon to make the sketch.

I had no idea about it taking that long, at least in the Massachusetts case, until last night. So I guess this is a possibility to consider.

Mike

Question: what physical characteristics, if any, can be assumed from a DNA profile?

Due to ethical concerns, a typical forensic DNA profile is not going to demonstrate anything about a person’s physical characteristics. These profiles are generated by looking at genes that do not express any particular characteristic. However, a whole genome profile would allow you to know everything about the person. I don’t think there is any whole.genome forensic kit, though. The short answer is that knowing a forensic DNA profile is going to tell you nothing about the person’s physical characteristics. The type used by Parabon will give you quite a bit of information.

Question: what physical characteristics, if any, can be assumed from a DNA profile?

Edited: sites like 23andme can offer a broad general description and a website named “promethease” can offer a bit more detail for about $10.

Eye color, ethnic composition, height, hair type / color baldness and probable ailments can be ascertained with a high degree of confidence it’s not perfect but it will be close.

the parabon details are hit or miss. they obviously highlight the cases where their "dna sketch" was close but not those where it wasn’t (ear/ons wasn’t close at all). the fact is you can make some guesses from dna (likely skin color, some idea of eye color) but even those are more likelihoods than statistical certainties. you can’t tell anything about hair style, weight, or other features gained after birth.

in my experience they’d do much better to at least try the genetic genealogy route of whatever dna they have, even if it’s not zodiac’s. if touch dna from the cab turns out to be someone unrelated it still answers a huge question – do they have any physical evidence that can tie a suspect to zodiac?

the parabon details are hit or miss. they obviously highlight the cases where their "dna sketch" was close but not those where it wasn’t (ear/ons wasn’t close at all). the fact is you can make some guesses from dna (likely skin color, some idea of eye color) but even those are more likelihoods than statistical certainties. you can’t tell anything about hair style, weight, or other features gained after birth.

in my experience they’d do much better to at least try the genetic genealogy route of whatever dna they have, even if it’s not zodiac’s. if touch dna from the cab turns out to be someone unrelated it still answers a huge question – do they have any physical evidence that can tie a suspect to zodiac?

Tom Voigt stated that the cab is still in SFPD’s evidence warehouse, I wonder if the bloody finger prints are still there and if touch
DNA could still be extracted from it ?

Tom Voigt stated that the cab is still in SFPD’s evidence warehouse, I wonder if the bloody finger prints are still there and if touch
DNA could still be extracted from it ?

If there was any way to extract a DNA sample from a 50 year old bloody fingerprint, wouldn’t that DNA recovered more likely show the DNA of the owner of the blood?

Tom Voigt stated that the cab is still in SFPD’s evidence warehouse, I wonder if the bloody finger prints are still there and if touch
DNA could still be extracted from it ?

If there was any way to extract a DNA sample from a 50 year old bloody fingerprint, wouldn’t that DNA recovered more likely show the DNA of the owner of the blood?

I’m not sure, I know they can isolate DNA from multiple sources such as in cases of gang rape but I don’t know if they can do
that with touch DNA.

Hi,

I think we can all agree that it has taken years to isolate any DNA from the Z letters, if they indeed have done so. This speaks of the scarcity of DNA on the letters, which is consistent with the notion that they were not simply licked by the sender. And we can only hope that if they have DNA, it matches across at least two letters, thus proving that it likely belongs to the sender, unlike the joke SFPD sample from 2002. That having been said, given how long it has taken, I think it is clear that unlike the two forgeries Keel told both me and Lafferty about at different times, where the sender had licked the letters and there was abundant DNA to be found on them, what LE has had to resort to with the Z letters is presumably techniques that detect only the minutest amounts of DNA. And this argues for what I have been saying for a long time: the Z letters and stamps were not licked by the sender and if there is DNA on the letters it is because he failed to wear gloves when applying the stamps.

Does anyone know if, when using touch DNA or low cell count, if they are ever able to develop a full profile, or if these are usually fragments of DNA that are found at such low levels? In other words, how likely is it that they have a full profile that would be suitable for Parabon to even use?

Mike R, it is possible to develop a full forensic nuclear DNA profile from one cell’s worth of DNA. Defense lawyers like me will question the accuracy and relevance of such a profile, but it is scientifically possible.

I had a capital murder case where the DNA profile was raised from probably as few as five epithelial cells. With low copy number (touch DNA), it is possible to raise a good profile from a tiny, tiny sample.

Hi,

Ok. Thanks for the info. Let’s see what happens as the year progresses.

Mike R, it is possible to develop a full forensic nuclear DNA profile from one cell’s worth of DNA. Defense lawyers like me will question the accuracy and relevance of such a profile, but it is scientifically possible.

I had a capital murder case where the DNA profile was raised from probably as few as five epithelial cells. With low copy number (touch DNA), it is possible to raise a good profile from a tiny, tiny sample.

It makes me slightly worried about Zodiac’s prosecution were he alive and arrested. Unless his DNA is found from a crime scene, they can only link him to the crimes via the letters. It isn’t like the EARONS case where DNA was recovered from numerous scenes. Defense lawyers would drag out the case or try to have it thrown out on technicality.