Take it however you want. I guess you know more than the original detectives. By the way, the top Riverside cop was convinced even before the handwriting link was made. But of course what would he know?
I’m not trying to be snarky here, just going back to what I learned a long time ago: If A=B and B=C then A=C. Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett, and you say Riverside was also convinced Zodiac killed CJB, are we to conclude Bob Barnett is Zodiac?
Or are we making a selection – Choosing to believe Riverside was right about Zodiac killing CJB, but wrong about Bob Barnett killing CJB?
Didn’t DNA ruled BB out though ?
Take it however you want. I guess you know more than the original detectives. By the way, the top Riverside cop was convinced even before the handwriting link was made. But of course what would he know?
I’m not trying to be snarky here, just going back to what I learned a long time ago: If A=B and B=C then A=C. Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett, and you say Riverside was also convinced Zodiac killed CJB, are we to conclude Bob Barnett is Zodiac?
Or are we making a selection – Choosing to believe Riverside was right about Zodiac killing CJB, but wrong about Bob Barnett killing CJB?
Didn’t DNA ruled BB out though ?
Bingo. 
Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett
Just Bud Kelly and the guy who replaced him, who knew nothing about the Bates case (he guaranteed me she had been stabbed 42 times).
Take it however you want. I guess you know more than the original detectives. By the way, the top Riverside cop was convinced even before the handwriting link was made. But of course what would he know?
I’m not trying to be snarky here, just going back to what I learned a long time ago: If A=B and B=C then A=C. Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett, and you say Riverside was also convinced Zodiac killed CJB, are we to conclude Bob Barnett is Zodiac?
Or are we making a selection – Choosing to believe Riverside was right about Zodiac killing CJB, but wrong about Bob Barnett killing CJB?
Didn’t DNA ruled BB out though ?
Yep.
I’m generalizing, because it has all been discussed and debated to death here, but you potentially have two killers in late ’60s CA who:
– Wrote confessional letters to newspapers
– Used said letters to terrorize the public with threats of more killings
– Communicated with police
– Made phone calls (if we’re to believe the Confession letter)
– Used double-stamps
– Used ruses to entrap victims
– Used similar phrasing and spelling
– Struck close to holidays (Oct. 30th/July 5th)
– Commemorated anniversaries
– Sent 3 copies of the same letter to 3 different recipients; 3 "Bates had to die" letters <–> 3 July 31st Zodiac letters.
2/3 "Bates had to die" letters were signed off with "Z" as well.
But initially they believed it was Zodiac before BB, so as they have ruled out BB then surely it reverts to their original stance ?
Take it however you want. I guess you know more than the original detectives. By the way, the top Riverside cop was convinced even before the handwriting link was made. But of course what would he know?
I’m not trying to be snarky here, just going back to what I learned a long time ago: If A=B and B=C then A=C. Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett, and you say Riverside was also convinced Zodiac killed CJB, are we to conclude Bob Barnett is Zodiac?
Or are we making a selection – Choosing to believe Riverside was right about Zodiac killing CJB, but wrong about Bob Barnett killing CJB?
Didn’t DNA ruled BB out though ?
In December 1998, information was developed that Barnett was returning to the Riverside area for Christmas. RPD managed to get a warrant and met Barnett upon his arrival at Ontario Airport. RPD took skin, saliva, hair and other samples from Barnett, which were then sent for DNA analysis to the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va. Barnett was described as having displayed a passive, "What took you so long?" type of attitude with detectives, sending their suspicions of his guilt soaring even higher. The DNA results were a conclusive non-match.
Since Riverside was convinced CJB was killed by Bob Barnett
Just Bud Kelly and the guy who replaced him, who knew nothing about the Bates case (he guaranteed me she had been stabbed 42 times).
Thanks Tom, that does clarify things a bit. So the CJB – Zodiac connection is based on something substantial (I respect the fact you may not be in a position to elaborate) while the Bob Barnett as suspect angle was pushed by a somewhat rogue cop with an agenda?
A cop with an agenda who is in prison for the rest of his life.
Nobody before Kelly was on the Barnett wagon, and after Kelly left, only his student (Det. "Clueless" Shumway) was adamant about Barnett being Cheri’s killer.
I’m generalizing, because it has all been discussed and debated to death here, but you potentially have two killers in late ’60s CA who:
– Wrote confessional letters to newspapers
– Used said letters to terrorize the public with threats of more killings
– Communicated with police
– Made phone calls (if we’re to believe the Confession letter)
– Used double-stamps
– Used ruses to entrap victims
– Used similar phrasing and spelling
– Struck close to holidays (Oct. 30th/July 5th)
– Commemorated anniversaries
– Sent 3 copies of the same letter to 3 different recipients; 3 "Bates had to die" letters <–> 3 July 31st Zodiac letters.
But then guys like Richard Walter and John Douglas do crime scene and behavioral analysis and conclude that Bates’ killer has a completely different psychological makeup and signature than Zodiac. The criteria that you listed are not all unique to Zodiac:
– Wrote confessional letters to newspapers (So did Son of Sam and BTK)
– Used said letters to terrorize the public with threats of more killings (Same as above)
– Communicated with police (Same as above)
– Made phone calls (if we’re to believe the Confession letter) (this is unique to Zodiac, but we don’t have an actual record of a call for CJB)
– Used double-stamps (Not every Zodiac letter used this convention, but I’ll grant this as as similarity)
– Used ruses to entrap victims (So did Ted Bundy)
– Used similar phrasing and spelling (the phrases are not very uncommon, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that Zodiac read about the Bates case and adopted some of the language used from the Confession Letter)
– Struck close to holidays (Oct. 30th/July 5th) (Is October 30 a Holiday?)
– Commemorated anniversaries (McVeigh bombed OKC on the two-year anniversary of the Waco fire at the Branch Davidian compound. I will also note that there was only one instance of Zodiac commemorating an anniversary.)
– Sent 3 copies of the same letter to 3 different recipients (granted)
I remain skeptical, but willing to be convinced.
I lean heavily towards Bates being a Zodiac victim, though one thing that bugs me is how sexual Bate’s murder was compared to Zodiac’s.
I lean heavily towards Bates being a Zodiac victim, though one thing that bugs me is how sexual Bate’s murder was compared to Zodiac’s.
There was nothing sexual except the confession which was more like a work of fiction.
Don’t forget Cheri’s killer might have had something entirely different in mind for her.
I lean heavily towards Bates being a Zodiac victim, though one thing that bugs me is how sexual Bate’s murder was compared to Zodiac’s.
That too. And the Bates murder seems to indicate a younger, more immature killer (early to mid 20s). But Zodiac seems older (the description of his style of dress as being more like the 50s fashion, his word choice, his knowledge base). The Zodiac seems 30s-40s. So, for Zodiac to have killed Bates, I need to put Zodiac in his late 20s or early 30s by the time he starts the canonical murders. Bates’ killer is also very emotional. Zodiac is cold as ice. Maybe the act of killing CJB changed Zodiac, making him colder and more aloof. There is a big change in MO between CJB and LHR/BRS, too.
If you read the Confession Letter, its tone is nothing like a Zodiac letter. So, the fact that "twitch and squirm" were used by Zodiac and the writer of the Confession Letter is largely irrelevant, especially when Zodiac’s use of that phrase was a quote, if I am not mistaken. CJB’s killer had to kill her for personal reasons…basically revenge for rejection. Zodiac collected slaves. "Bates had to die." Zodiac’s victims were unidentified slaves to serve him in the afterlife. Zodiac went out of his way to dehumanize his victims. He called them "boy" and "girl" only when he had to differentiate between them, using as little detail and identifiers as possible. They didn’t matter to him one bit! Bates clearly mattered to her killer.
There are more than enough differences to cast reasonable doubts on whether the CJB murder is related to the Zodiac murders.
There was nothing sexual except the confession which was more like a work of fiction.
Just so I understand you, by "work of fiction" are you saying that the real killer didn’t write it or that the real killer wrote it but did so to mislead law enforcement?
There was nothing sexual except the confession which was more like a work of fiction.
Just so I understand you, by "work of fiction" are you saying that the real killer didn’t write it or that the real killer wrote it but did so to mislead law enforcement?
He worded it for dramatic effect.
