Seems pretty straight forward, one could simply forcibly yank the keys straight out of the ignition while the engine is running. Who knows why?

Im not really sure how everything went down while the two were in the cab before Stine was shot.

Zodiac could have told Stine to stop the cab and shut the ignition off, whilst having a gun to his head. Then maybe Stine decided to try and take off anyway. They could have struggled briefly for control of the car. There seems to be debate as to whether Zodiac was in the front seat or back seat. Perhaps Zodiac was in the back seat. Stine turns his head slightly to the right. Zodiac shoots Stine point blank. Stine had the transmission in drive, having never put it in park. The car slowly begins to creep forward. Being caught of guard that the car is moving, Zodiac quickly leans over the front seat from the back, put the car in park and yanks the keys straight out, I’m sure he had his reasons for wanting to disable the car. He keeps the keys because he has touched them, they have his fingerprints on them, theres no time to do a wipe down on a set of keys.

Alternatively, Zodiac may have demanded the keys from Stine before being shot. Stine may have yanked the keys straight out of the ignition while in a state of panic, or, maybe Stine knew he could remove they keys in this fashion, and still be able to operate the vehicle. He was shot before he could attempt to escape.

Zodiac doesn’t strike me as the souvenir type, I bet he got rid of the keys quickly.

Turning the key into the off position on some older Fords, would result the engine still running. Has some to do with defective solenoids or diodes. It’s a known issue.

The car may have worked fine without the key. Zodiac may have taken nothing. The car may have had a faulty, worn out ignition switch..

Im not really sure how everything went down while the two were in the cab before Stine was shot.

Agreed.
Because the Zodiac letter regarding the murder specifically says "murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St. + Maple St.", the gunshot might have been fired there and the cab then ambled its way further down with its passengers. This would help explain why eyewitnesses heard no gunshot.
I think the murderer pulled his weapon ambush style and fired point blank just as the cab was halting at its requested destination.

Podcasters –
About where would you estimate Pelissetti stood as Fouke & Zelm are encountering the suspect on Jackson St? Is Pelissetti just starting his careful prowl up Cherry to the Jackson corner? Is he half way up the block already?

Or if Fouke & Zelm did actually proceed to Arguello Blvd after encountering/seeing the suspect, when and where did they link up with Pelissetti? Did Pelissetti see their cruiser go past him when he was on Cherry?

I am just trying hard to imagine these three concerns moving in real time in relation to each other at the crime scene….

Seems that if the following were true it would be common knowledge and discussed thoroughly. I know Eric Zelms died not too long after this in a shooting in the Tenderloin. Pretty tragic young guy with a family. Question is he must have been interviewed by Police brass or had to make a report of what his observations were. Or Fouke being the senior officer they take his account of things and left it at that.
On another note I was listening to the Village podcast about the Bruce MacCarthur serial murders in Toronto. They had a couple of experts on wanted poster sketches. They were saying they were not very reliable. Their reasoning is that in reconstructing the face the process is to go part by part eyes, nose hair etc. In real life the view of the witness is of the face in total usually for a brief moment. Adding and changing things piece by piece doesn’t do justice to what was actually seen. Their theory but they were pretty adamant sketches can be misleading.

charliemartin

Podcasters –
About where would you estimate Pelissetti stood as Fouke & Zelm are encountering the suspect on Jackson St? Is Pelissetti just starting his careful prowl up Cherry to the Jackson corner? Is he half way up the block already?

Or if Fouke & Zelm did actually proceed to Arguello Blvd after encountering/seeing the suspect, when and where did they link up with Pelissetti? Did Pelissetti see their cruiser go past him when he was on Cherry?

I am just trying hard to imagine these three concerns moving in real time in relation to each other at the crime scene….

If Pelissetti took about 1 minute to arrive at the crime scene, then Zodiac would be nearing the Jackson & Maple intersection as Pelissetti arrived at Washington & Cherry. After Fouke & Zelms had encountered Zodiac they would have driven to Arguello, turned east on West Pacific Avenue, searched momentarily for Zodiac by Julius Khan playground, then turned around and headed back to Jackson & Cherry, then met Pelissetti nearing the Jackson & Cherry intersection. About 2.5 to 3 minutes after encountering Zodiac.

Just ask yourself, how long does Pelissetti require to reach the crime scene, do all the things he said he did there, and then walk cautiously up Cherry to the Jackson/Cherry intersection? That is how much time must elapse for Donald Fouke to travel from the intersection of Washington & Presidio Avenue to turning into the Jackson & Cherry intersection to meet Pelissetti.

Just ask yourself, how long does Pelissetti require to reach the crime scene, do all the things he said he did there, and then walk cautiously up Cherry to the Jackson/Cherry intersection? That is how much time must elapse for Donald Fouke to travel from the intersection of Washington & Presidio Avenue to turning into the Jackson & Cherry intersection to meet Pelissetti.

Thank you for you insights into this case!

Do either of the pod-casters have opinions as to why the cab was found a block farther West of the fare’s requested destination?

In answer to your question, here is an interesting take by Gian J. Quasar:

http://www.thequesterfiles.com/paul_stine_10-11-69_–_the_que.html

"Stine’s head recoils. He slumps. The ZODIAC pushes him aside and seizes the steering wheel and pushes aside his leg. He hits the gas enough to start them continuing down Washington Street. Traffic is sparse here, especially at this time of night. He cruises them down to Washington and Cherry (these are fairly short blocks) and pulls over to the curb at the intersection. He shifts and takes the keys. He now starts to go through Stine’s person to get his wallet and take his macabre tokens." And "This explains why the kids did not hear a gunshot."

As Gian J Quaser writes, "When [the young witnesses] looked out they saw the killer in the passenger seat but more toward the center…" And from Pelissetti’s police report: "They saw the…suspect in the front seat of the Yellow cab, mid to passenger side, with the victim slumped partially over his lap….The suspect then appeared to be wiping (fingerprints) on the interior of the cab, leaning over the victim to the driver’s compartment."

This position of the Zodiac in the cab would fit with the theory that he physically drove the taxi further to Washington & Cherry.

I like this theory as it allows the Zodiac time to remove the portion of Paul Stine’s shirt. Clearly this was a pre-meditated murder, and the Zodiac quite probably planned to take "evidence" from the scene to later use as proof he was the murderer. By moving the cab away from the actual scene of the murder, the Zodiac avoids possible detection from citizens responding to the sound of a gunshot, thereby allowing him time to carry out his plan to ultimately retrieve the piece of shirt. (Would this also mean he had to have brought scissors or a tool to actually cut the material? Again, this would indicate pre-meditation in terms of retrieving evidence from Stine to later use as proof he was the killer.)

Furthermore, by carrying out this particular MO, by default he would need time to clean up, after moving about in the cab and steering the vehicle i.e touching the wheel, gearstick etc. The young witnesses stated they saw the Zodiac leaning over the victim and wiping down the area of the driver’s compartment. Why else would he need to wipe down that specific location if he had simply been in the passenger’s position (front or back)? Sure, he could still have had to engage the gears and possibly touch the wheel regardless, but we then get into the discussion about whether Stine (or any other taxi driver) would put the car into park when stopping to let a passenger out, thereby negating the need for the Zodiac to do so himself.

Finally, not only does the job sheet confirm the above theory, but as we well know, the Zodiac himself admits as much in his letter when he states "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St & Maple St." Knowing the Zodiac’s predisposition to pedantry, this could well be a simple statement of fact.

This was covered by Paul Holes on Michael Butterfield’s site. The blood pattern on the left and right side of Paul Stine’s shirt requires a measurable period of time of blood flow in accordance with gravity. Paul Stine couldn’t have slumped immediately to the right and remained there throughout, because blood couldn’t form that pattern on the shirt against gravity. This likely proves that the teenagers were correct when they stated the Zodiac Killer attempted to right Paul Stine behind the steering wheel. In absence of this action, the only way a killer could have took control of the taxicab at Washington & Maple, was by operating the vehicle from the right side of Paul Stine.

If anybody would wonder after all these years: this one I’d suggest as the most probable (along with many of you sleuths – I’m guessing).

This was covered by Paul Holes on Michael Butterfield’s site. The blood pattern on the left and right side of Paul Stine’s shirt requires a measurable period of time of blood flow in accordance with gravity. Paul Stine couldn’t have slumped immediately to the right and remained there throughout, because blood couldn’t form that pattern on the shirt against gravity. This likely proves that the teenagers were correct when they stated the Zodiac Killer attempted to right Paul Stine behind the steering wheel. In absence of this action, the only way a killer could have took control of the taxicab at Washington & Maple, was by operating the vehicle from the right side of Paul Stine.

Hi Richard,

I believe the theory would be that the Zodiac sat next to – and to the right side of – Paul Stine while maneuvering the cab further along to Cherry from Maple. This would therefore support the blood flow/patterns as Paul Stine would have been supported in the upright position from the time the Zodiac entered the front of the cab at Maple until they reached Cherry. (If Paul Stine had slumped at the initial point of being shot at Maple, the Zodiac would naturally have sat him upright when he slid into the front seat beside him in order to sit close enough to the wheel.)

Which raises a key question – What is "a measurable period of time" re "blood flow in accordance with gravity?"

Surely the murder-at-Maple-Street theory would better support the blood flow evidence, as arguably Paul Stine would have been in the upright position longer.

Conversely, if shot at Cherry, how long would Paul Stine’s body needed to have remained upright in order to produce the particular blood flow evidence?

I’m sure the Zodiac wouldn’t have fiddled and farted around once the cab stopped. Zodiac would fairly quickly carry out his exit strategy. Part of that exit strategy would naturally dictate that he move away from Paul Stine, whereby he no longer is propping up the body. This would be the point at which Paul Stine’s body would slump, and the moment which the witnesses observed.

When attempting to calculate these timeframes, we can clearly factor in the same timing for everything that transpired at Cherry Street, some of which was witnessed, regardless of whether he was shot at Maple or Cherry. But with the Maple St theory, we can extend the time that the body was in the upright position. Does either scenario better support the blood flow evidence?

Richard, a few additional questions if I could:

1. If the blood flow question is not an issue, what is your opinion on the shooting taking place at Washington & Maple?
2. Do you agree that taking part of the shirt was premeditated?
3. If premeditated, would that not factor in the Zodiac’s decision to move away from where he shot Stine to avoid "nosey neighbors"?
4. Has anyone discussed whether the Zodiac would therefore have brought along scissors/knife to cut the shirt?

Many thanks to you and Morf.

FOOTNOTE: Richard, apologies, since writing the above I’ve read the piece on Paul Holes with Michael Butterfield, and also more material on zodiaccyphers.com where this is discussed in user comments.