One interesting thing to remember…Armond says he was very close to Cherry/Washington when he gets the call, unlike Fouke who when he received the call turned on his running lights only, Pellessetti states he turned on his lights and siren. so when Pel pulls up to Cherry/Washington and parks his car, facing Stines, but Pel’s car is blocking Cherry. siren going, had to scare the crap out of Z. and was probably visible to Z. But not only might Z have seen Pel pulling up, he would certainly hear the siren (very close) as soon as Pel turned it on. And then boom turns east on Jackson heads that way, and runs into Fouke.

sorry didn’t mean to digress from the dog walker.

No need to apologize. The turn onto Jackson is such a strange move, and key to figuring out just what was going on there. We’ll never know the ‘why’ for certain, but it is the question we have to wonder most about. Not sure others agree with that, but that’s how i see it. That turn onto Jackson just makes no sense, unless Jackson represented ‘home’ of some kind.

One interesting thing to remember…Armond says he was very close to Cherry/Washington when he gets the call, unlike Fouke who when he received the call turned on his running lights only, Pellessetti states he turned on his lights and siren. so when Pel pulls up to Cherry/Washington and parks his car, facing Stines, but Pel’s car is blocking Cherry. siren going, had to scare the crap out of Z. and was probably visible to Z. But not only might Z have seen Pel pulling up, he would certainly hear the siren (very close) as soon as Pel turned it on. And then boom turns east on Jackson heads that way, and runs into Fouke.

sorry didn’t mean to digress from the dog walker.

I know, that’s what I said earlier in the thread. Its Possible that Zodiac both heard his siren and saw his emergency lights flashing in the distance. This is what gives me even more cause to believe that Zodiac was never intending to escape into the Presidio because even if there is no Pelissetti responding on Washington I’d still expect Zodiac to disappear into the Presidio via the closest and most convenient place available and that, in this instance, is the Cherry Street entrance. So you’d think this would be where he enters the grounds of the Presidio if only in order to avoid being seen by residents along Jackson Street alone but, now that he must be aware the cops are literally seconds away behind him, it now becomes almost certain that he must use this entrance because the police are right there and he needs to get out of sight. Yet, he still doesn’t use this most easy and available of access points. I mean if we are to assume he was heading for the Presidio then you have to accept the following:

Zodiac kills Stine, witness see the crime as it’s unfolding and dial 911. Zodiac is minding his own business helping himself to a few of Pauls items and wiping down the cab when, all of a sudden, a siren! Pretty close, too. He knows it approaching along Washington Street and so walks off Down Cherry Street desperate to get into the expansive grounds of the Presidio and the cover of darkness because he knows police are seconds away and arrives at the top of Cherry Street. Now his entrance to the Presidio is only several yards away and all he needs to do is cross the road at the intersection and he’s safe but Zodiac decides that no, he’s rather stay on the street in full view of any police car that may come speeding down Cherry and onto Jackson after him. There is no reason at all, nor does it make any sense, that if Zodiac was heading for the Presidio grounds that he would decide to walk down to Maple to get there and pass Cherry entrance on his way to do it.

Norse wrote…..

"I’m with you on the PH connection angle. Or, rather, that is an angle I’ve played around with a lot myself – quite independently of anything pertaining to KQ. You make a very good point about the Cherry St entrance to the park. It seems the obvious choice. And the kids apparently told Pelissetti Zodiac moved up Cherry, heading for the Park. Why did Pelissetti turn east on Jackson St at all? Wouldn’t the natural assumption be that the suspect had fled into the park?"

Exactly! I think Pelissetti didn’t consider the Cherry entrance for one reason, that being, while on his way along Cherry Don Fouke comes around the corner and stops and speaks with Armond. Armond tells Don of the error in ethnic description of the suspect and tells Don he’s actually a white guy, crew cut with glasses. Don then tell’s Armond, as he states in the Docmentary "Ohh, that (guy) was the suspect." He tells Armond that he’s just seconds ago passed a white male matching this very description and Armond asks where and Don tells him that he has just gone onto a pathway and toward the house located on Jacksn at the intersection with Maple. Armond, armed with this information, sets off to see if there is anyone still around that area and house. And when he gets there, he encounters the ‘Dog Walker’ who happens to be Kjell Qvale. I haven’t personally heard it, but recent claims suggest that Armond was recorded during a phone conversation admitting that the man he encountered wasn’t on Maple Street and nor did he have a dog and that he was, actually, on a driveway at Maple Street, just standing there.

How it is that Kjell, Don, Armond and Zodiac were all apparently on the same street and all somehow managed to miss each other with the Dog walker only showing himself to Amond and wasn’t anywhere in sight seconds before as Don passes by that intersection and instead Don is presented with a separate white Male lumbering down Jackson and who isn’t there a few seconds previous when Armond is on Jackson.

Now i know many will not even consider this possibility because it involves police officers lying and even conspiring to conceal the truth but again, you have to consider who it is that would be implicate in this crime if Armond admits that he was still on the driveway when he got there. For me personally, If there are two options to consider. 1, Simply believe the official account because it’s from two police officers and ignore all the problems, even impossibilities, with what they are claiming happened or, 2. Pelissetti is lying about the dog walker and he actually saw the guy on a driveway, right where Fouke says he saw him also and had told A.P about it on Cherry St which now makes complete sense and the continuity allowable.

I’m going to be inclined to believe option two because to believe option 1 you’d have to agree that the laws of physics were suspended for an hour or so on Jackson Street that night as several people were all dashing around the same area and somehow all managed to miss each other.

Why would Armond Lie? Because of who it was he saw standing in that Drive! He’s not stupid, he knows very well that if he simply comes out and tells it the way it is then he would have to admit that he was on Cherry approaching Jackson and intended to simply look down Jackson to see if anyone was scaling a wall or anything when Don comes around the corner and stops and both exchange words and A.P tells Don he was white with glasses and crew cut and Don then tells him someone matching that description has just turned onto a driveway at the intersection as Don was approaching and this was his reason for now deciding to walk down Jackson as far as Maple and that house at the intersection. He’d then have to continue by admitting that when he arrived at the stated location given by Fouke, he too discovered a white guy who was doing nothing but simply standing in the drive. This man who Don first see’s, he’d have to admit, was still there on that property when he arrived there shortly after just standing there and therefore this person who Don saw was obviously only turning onto the property in order to avoid Don and Eric as they approached him because now he’s come off the pathway after Don has passed and is now hiding out of sight in the gated driveway to the garage. And why won’t Mr Pelissetti admit this? Because it was Kjell Qvale!

Hi-

For what it is worth, Pelissetti called me in 2004 and tried to get me off of KQ’s scent. He told me that "KQ had an alibi and was cleared." He did not tell me at that time what this "alibi" was. I learned that it was AP himself in 2006.

KQ and AP seem to have had a relationship that extended well beyond 1969. I don’t know how or why. One person in LE said that AP’s beat was on Van Ness at some point and that he was the type who would ask a car dealer for a discount on a car he might purchase. I contacted that guy again yesterday to see if it was before or after 1969 and he said he did not recall saying any such thing now. I couldn’t believe it! I know he is the one who said that to me a couple of years ago. So now I am not sure if AP ever had a beat on Van Ness. Maybe someone call call and ask him.

Mike

We’re still left with the question: Why turn east onto Jackson?

Once he reached the Cherry/Jackson intersection, the cover of darkness and the escape through the park was just a few yards away. Turning east onto Jackson meant he had a residence to hide out in nearby or a getaway vehicle not far from there. There’s just no other reason to head that way.

He told Stine "Washington and Maple" for a reason. That destination would have put him at least a block closer to something he had planned in advance. Cherry was an afterthought, a last-second dodge. I think the dog-walker was already out on the street before the murder. The neighborhood is the key. He had a desire to be close to something in that small radius of streets and houses; otherwise, seeing pedestrians (or whatever spooked him off Washington and Maple) would have scuttled the plan altogether. But it didn’t. His original destination was thwarted, but he still had the confidence to try and pull it off just a block further than he intended. Something in that immediate area gave him the confidence to shoot Stine and still get away clean.

Wolf on one of the earlier treads I say that I have always thought, and I don’t know why, that Paul Stine’s murder is the key to solving the Zodiac case. I didn’t know for quite some time that Cherry had an entrance to the Presidio and when I found out several months ago it just confirmed for me that Zodiac simply could not be heading for the Presidio that night because if he was then surely he’d have used the closest most convenient entrance available in order to avoid being seen.

"He told Stine "Washington and Maple" for a reason. That destination would have put him at least a block closer to something he had planned in advance. Cherry was an afterthought, a last-second dodge. I think the dog-walker was already out on the street before the murder."

I was only thinking about this earlier and I would love to know, just for my own curiosity, why he went one extra block to Cherry. I always, like yourself, assumed that the dog walker had been at or near the Washington & Maple intersection but I don’t hold to that idea anymore because i don’t believe Kjell Qvale was out walking any dog on Maple that night because Fouke and/or Zelms would have seen him as they passed through the intersection. Remember, according to Fouke he doesn’t know whether Eric saw the shuffling white male that turned onto 3712’s driveway because Eric was looking the other way, which was toward Maple St hill. Where’s he gone? To get back to his home Kjell would have to walk rite along Jackson as Fouke is coming toward Maple so Kjell couldn’t have gone home. I strongly believe The ‘Dog walker’ on Maple Street was in reality Kjell Qvale in the driveway of 3712.

If Armond isn’t admitting this when it’s actually the true version of where he saw Qvale, then why would Armond lie on behalf of Qvale, givig Kjell a dog and placing him on Maple to make his being there far more plausible and less suspicious.

Well, one thing I’d love to hear from Pelissetti that has been suspiciously absent from any of his testimony about that night is…. What was Kjell Wearing?

Armond must know the answer to this because he tells us that ‘This person had absolutely no blood on his clothes’ which means Mr Pelissetti must have had a good look at this mans jacket/pants in order to come to the aforementioned conclusion. So, Mr Palissetti, what was Mr Qvale wearing that night? It wasn’t a Navy blue Parka type jacket, rusty brown pleated trousers and a pair of wing-walker’s by any chance was it?

Hi-

For what it is worth, Pelissetti called me in 2004 and tried to get me off of KQ’s scent. He told me that "KQ had an alibi and was cleared." He did not tell me at that time what this "alibi" was. I learned that it was AP himself in 2006.

KQ and AP seem to have had a relationship that extended well beyond 1969. I don’t know how or why. One person in LE said that AP’s beat was on Van Ness at some point and that he was the type who would ask a car dealer for a discount on a car he might purchase. I contacted that guy again yesterday to see if it was before or after 1969 and he said he did not recall saying any such thing now. I couldn’t believe it! I know he is the one who said that to me a couple of years ago. So now I am not sure if AP ever had a beat on Van Ness. Maybe someone call call and ask him.

Mike

Well if Armond does know more than he’s saying regarding his encounter with Kjell that night then I don’t think he’s ever going to publically say what it is. Armond, and again, this is only my opinion of him and it’s simply based on how he comes across as a person, he seems the type to have no problem keeping what he knows to himself and take his secret to the grave with him. I’d say Don Fouke is far more likely to give a ‘death bed confession’ about what it is he knows because you watch Don’s body language in the 2008 documentary. He looks down at the floor a lot, and when he’s asked about Zodiac and his description Don, lookin down once again, lets out a very exasperated sigh as if he has had enough of having to lie about what he saw that night and there is proof of this because seconds after he lets out that very noticeable sigh it’s as though he’s had enough of lying and states "He (Zodiac) was putting his head down when he spotted the police car and turned into the entrance way of a house. By entrance way I mean steps that are concrete that leads to a path that leads to a front door. Never saw him get to the top of the steps." Then he confirms "I didn’t put it in the report, and I don’t think I ever told anyone."

I know I’ve criticised Don and Armond emphatically on several threads but I will say this in their defence. If they are holding back the truth about Kjell Qvale that night, for example, Pelissetti saw What he thought looked like blood on Kjells jacket, then I sympathise with the position they find themselves in because Kjell is admired and loved in S.F, he’s multi millionaire with a lot of friends in high places. Kjell wouldn’t fail to make generous donations to his chosen political group. I really can see it from their point because if they say the saw Kjell covered in blood they fear nobody will believe that one of San Francisco’s favourite son’s executed a cabbie and Fouke and Armond would have a legit fear of losing their jobs if they dared publically accuse Mr Auto-Importer himself was an official suspect.
I also think that Don knew how serious this was and didn’t want the rookie Eric Zelms to have anything to answer and basically, in a move to protect his young partner on that night, told him to say he was looking the other way.

And, as if anyone needs reminding, when Kjell was alive he made no secret at all that if he’s mentioned by name on a chat thread or on in any public arena, then he’ll see the owner of that site or blog in Court. That’s why up until his recent death he has always been referred to as ‘Mr X.’
I had a suspicion that Zodiac’s brag of being crack proof was being read the wrong way and was interpreted by most to be his arrogance and ego telling us that he’s just a master criminal that is too smart for any police force but I always thought all along it could very well be meant in a completely different context and that he is in fact telling us he’s crack proof because of who he is.

And there’s even this (I know, it’s just a coincidence more than likely)

KJELL QVALE

LAV? As in Paul Averly?

On a more serious note, I read and discovered earlier that Kjell owned a ranch in Cali somewhere that he kept his horses at in Napa Valley somewhere. Anyone find out where?

Hi-

I sent AP my report in 2007. He read it and called it "completely amateurish" with not even one fact that he found interesting. Now, I am either right or wrong but nobody from a police force has ever trashed my work like that. Even SFPD in 2012 was interested in it–ten years after the DNA "excluded" KQ. Go figure. Even many other amateurs (at least those without strong agendas that preclude them from giving me any credit) agree that I make some valid points. But not good old AP.

A "certain person" who solves cases for a living called AP a "willing dupe." I’ll let you connect the dots.

Ranch was in Oakville…a nice stopping off point between LB and downtown Napa.

Mike

Welsh Stated….

"I know, that’s what I said earlier in the thread. Its Possible that Zodiac both heard his siren and saw his emergency lights flashing in the distance. This is what gives me even more cause to believe that Zodiac was never intending to escape into the Presidio because even if there is no Pelissetti responding on Washington I’d still expect Zodiac to disappear into the Presidio via the closest and most convenient place available and that, in this instance, is the Cherry Street entrance. So you’d think this would be where he enters the grounds of the Presidio if only in order to avoid being seen by residents along Jackson Street alone but, now that he must be aware the cops are literally seconds away behind him, it now becomes almost certain that he must use this entrance because the police are right there and he needs to get out of sight. Yet, he still doesn’t use this most easy and available of access points. I mean if we are to assume he was heading for the Presidio then you have to accept the following:
Zodiac kills Stine, witness see the crime as it’s unfolding and dial 911. Zodiac is minding his own business helping himself to a few of Pauls items and wiping down the cab when, all of a sudden, a siren! Pretty close, too. He knows it approaching along Washington Street and so walks off Down Cherry Street desperate to get into the expansive grounds of the Presidio and the cover of darkness because he knows police are seconds away and arrives at the top of Cherry Street. Now his entrance to the Presidio is only several yards away and all he needs to do is cross the road at the intersection and he’s safe but Zodiac decides that no, he’s rather stay on the street in full view of any police car that may come speeding down Cherry and onto Jackson after him. There is no reason at all, nor does it make any sense, that if Zodiac was heading for the Presidio grounds that he would decide to walk down to Maple to get there and pass Cherry entrance on his way to do it."

I agree….I don’t think the park was ever on Z’s radar as his place to go to….It became the focal point from the kid’s saying, last they saw Z he was heading north on Cherry towards park (which is true), And then Fouke’s sealing the deal with his assumption. And maybe Fouke’s assumption was also based on what the kids said….
Yeah wish we knew where Pellessetti was when he got the call, and what the kids would estimate the timeline between the last they saw Z, and when they see Armond pulling up…..

Welsh Stated…..
"And, as if anyone needs reminding, when Kjell was alive he made no secret at all that if he’s mentioned by name on a chat thread or on in any public arena, then he’ll see the owner of that site or blog in Court. That’s why up until his recent death he has always been referred to as ‘Mr X.’
I had a suspicion that Zodiac’s brag of being crack proof was being read the wrong way and was interpreted by most to be his arrogance and ego telling us that he’s just a master criminal that is too smart for any police force but I always thought all along it could very well be meant in a completely different context and that he is in fact telling us he’s crack proof because of who he is."

Let’s put KQ in perspective ok. This isn’t Willie Mays, McCovey, Montana, Belli, not even OJ. if you asked the majority of SF’ers in 1969 or any time in between who was Kjell, most wouldn’t have a clue. I think a lot of this emphasis is on KQ is from him threatening folks on Z boards with lawsuits. that’s because compared to KQ, they’re nobody’s, he CaN squash them quickly. But SFPD could give a rat’s ass about Kjell. It’s the old scissor’s vs. paper routine.
I’m reading things here that just don’t add up. Pellessetti is asked about KQ, and Pel says they investigated him thoroughly and KQ had an air tight alibi. Well if Pellessetti saw KQ on the street that night, why would he be asking him for an alibi, or investigating him at all? Isn’t this sort of common sense? Pel wouldn’t even be involved in questioning KQ, that would be Toschi and Armstrong’s job, and they don’t share with cops what they’re doing, cause it’s none of the cops business. Pel says that himself in the video. Not his job anymore, after Oct. 11, 1969, unless a detective or higher up asks Fouke or Pel something about the case, they’re done.
I come from a long line of cops. Most cops when someone asks them anything about a case, you know what they’re thinking? Who the F are you? What do you want? Cops are smart, usually much smarter then those asking the questions, they pick up on what someone wants to hear and they go with it. Case in point Pel tells someone something and years later they find Pel was blowing smoke up their rear. That’s right that’s what cops do to the average citizen. Cops look at it as you questioning their work, they don’t like that. Unless you have a personal relationship with a cop or his family, or you are a somebody, you’re foolish if you think a cop is going to divulge truth to you. He’ll just blow smoke up your rear, and have a good laugh about it. He’ll tell you anything you want to hear. If they’d thought for a millisecond that KQ could be Z, they would have gladly paid him a visit put him in handcuffs, and he could tell them all day long, all the way to San Quentin how important he is. Cops could care less.

Hi-

You don’t seem to get it: AP WAS KQ’s alibi! The problem is that AP’s story keeps changing. Where and when did he see him? On the streets? In his front yard? Important issues because TIMING is the key to the entire alibi. Seeing him in his front yard is much different from seeing him at Jackson and Maple when you are talking about TIME. If this were not the Zodiac case and AP were not a cop and the person he saw not KQ and AP gave varying versions of his story, what would you say about the strength of the "alibi?"

Now, I do not argue all the things that are being said here about Fouke knowing that he saw KQ, etc. These are neither my words nor my ideas. But I am saying that AP can’t be believed as it pertains to the version of his story on the DVD because there are more versions than just that one. And when someone who is providing someone else with an alibi changes his story, all bets are off on the alibi (in the non-Zodiac world at least)!

Mike

Mike, can I ask, have you ever obtaibed printed samples of your suspect’s writing? Having been in businesses etc, there should be some out there. In fact, you can obtain his printed social security application, maybe you ca finally see if his printing matches Zodiac’s.

Hi-

Let me ask you this: Let’s say James Owen looked exactly like the SFPD Wanted Poster. The guy who is associated with Z’s handwriting is the guy from LB, not the guy from PH. The guy from LB is estimated to have possibly weighed 230 pounds. The guy in PH tore off a piece of Stine’s shirt to send with the letters but he did not write on Stine’s cab. So we cannot say for certain that his handwriting was on the car at LB, can we? James Owen, let’s say, weighed 160 pounds. He could have worn a few sweaters under his windbreaker to appear "barrel chested" in PH but could he have made himself into a 230 pound behemoth at LB? Maybe. But maybe not.

The obvious answer is that the only thing you can ever say about any suspect based only on his handwriting, DNA and palm prints is that he didn’t write the letters. Period. You can’t say he didn’t do PH! As for the cab prints, that is another story but they were all latents. None were visible prints in blood, so we don’t know that any of them came from the killer. AP is full of you-know-what when he said he say bloody prints with ridge detail, unless SFPD lied to the FBI when it sent their prints to them in late 1969. (They said all the prints were latents.) As for the meaning of "prints associated with blood," who knows what the heck that means? I can think of many scenarios, some of them innocent, for that one.

If you are willing to rule our Owen based solely on handwriting, then I’d suggest that you don’t have any confidence in the foundation of your evidence, which is the basis for saying that he is a POI.

So in the face of questionable physical evidence, what is the best evidence? A profile and someone who fits the profile and who has a strong circumstantial case pointing in his direction. A guy who demonstrated Z’s behavior before there was a Z. Like landing on the front pages of the Bay Area papers in 1947 by saying that flying saucers were from outer space. THAT sounds like something Z would have done in his youth, as opposed to starting fires or kicking puppies.

Mike

Not sure what Owen has to do with X, but I think writing is simply one tool in the tool box, and we should look at the writing of any suspect closely, and yeah, for me personally, if tge writing didn’t match in any way shape or form and wasn’t even close, that would be one strike against him in my book. I try not to go solely by looks when looking at suspects so I don’t go overboard with a guy that looks like the sketch(unless it’s somebody that knew Bates, worked in the library, and looked like the z sketch like Ross Sullivan).

I had read that the family & kids that saw z also knew mr x, wouldn’t they be able to is him as z?