As you probably know I do not believe Paul Stine was shot at the intersection of Washington and Cherry, but don’t want to run over all that nonsense again. But I think it’s fair to say that Paul Stine after being shot most certainly did not slump over to his right almost immediately, as depicted in the 2007 movie and certainly never fell over onto the passenger side seat. The crime scene photograph below clearly shows a line of blood pooling at the back of the driver side seat. The back of the passenger side seat however shows none. He clearly bled heavily, so if he had immediately fell to his right and his head had rested on the passenger seat, the right to left slant of the seat would have pooled the blood here, between the seat and backrest. It means Paul Stine must have been upright for a measurable period of time.
There are also virtually equal amounts of staining to the front left and right side of Stine’s shirt, until 2/3 rds of the way down on the left side. I did a bit of measuring and this coincides nicely with the position of the armrest on the driver side door, suggesting at some point he was pushed or pressed against the door of drivers side, preventing the blood flow down the shirt on this side, namely between the Washington/Maple and Washington/Cherry intersections.
When he was eventually pulled away from the door over the Zodiac’s lap to secure the trophy, the blood that had pooled at the armrest juncture was released causing the blood striations on the underside of the armrest seen below. Hope this makes sense, couldn’t be bothered to write everything.
UKS:
Seeing as you’re an advocate of Neil’s/Butterfield’s theory about the accidental "roll" from Maple to Cherry – what’s your take on the fingerprint(s) which SFPD were "confident" in? Are they Z’s?
The most obvious implication of the "car-not-in-park" theory is that what followed was at least partly pure damage control on Z’s part – and that surely makes it more likely that he did, in fact, leave a decent print behind in spite of his efforts to clean up after himself.
FWIW I like said theory myself. There are some problems with it – but it has more merit than many other theories about what happened that night.
UKS, I’m not saying you’re wrong about the dark area where the seat and seat back meet is blood but I don’t think it is all blood. While the outside part (nearest the doors) of the seatbelt retracted the end that came up from the floorboard and between the two sections of the seat was not retractable and you were able to adjust the seatbelt length at that end, as one would do with an airline seat belt, for instance. I think that quite possibly a lot of that dark area is seatbelt. And there is an enormous amount of blood on the passenger floorboard.
I certainly do agree about the blood pattern on Stine’s shirt, he was upright when that pattern was made but I believe that would have happened almost instantly when he was shot. I like the theory about the car having rolled to the position where it was found, too.
I too believe that to be a seat belt.
Seeing all the blood on the driver’s side door is quite interesting though. There was no exit wound, so for blood to get over there? Odd.
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
The seat belt is possible, as regards what Norse said I think he never wore gloves when he shot Stine to get a ‘feel’ on the gun. When the taxicab motioned out of control I believe he exited the rear of the moving cab, possibly jarring his ankle or knee on the roadside (the semi-limp described by Fouke), to enter the driver side door you would use your left hand to open the door and right hand to brace yourself on the cab exterior, just by the panel join between the doors, where I believe partial blooded prints were recovered, then as he entered the driver side door to step over Stine you again would naturally support yourself by placing your left hand on the steering wheel or compartment area, where the Zodiac was later spotted wiping down. Once in, as he pushed Stine leftward to access the taxicab pedals, he stalled the taxicab, hence had to touch the keys to restart the engine, which is why he took them later, they harbored his fingerprints. He later searched Paul Stine’s wallet for ID, so again has to be removed to avoid fingerprint detection.
And what is up with this image?
Where is the blood?
Did they really move the cab with his arm hanging out like that?
The Best Mystery Is An Unsolved Mystery….
Guess no blood on the passenger seat as Paul was on his back, most of the blood running onto his shirt ..
QT
*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*
The blood on the ground is what is missing. It is in one photo but not
the other. I checked all the angles and do not see how this is possible.
And I find it difficult to believe they moved the cab with his arm hanging
out like that. No blood then blood or blood then no blood?
The Best Mystery Is An Unsolved Mystery….
Paul Stine was found on the floorboard of the passenger side, not hanging out the cab as shown, hence the blood on the floor of the passenger side, inside the cab. He was then pulled to this position by medics to check for life. Photograph 1 then taken as you’ve shown. Little blood on the ground. Photograph 2 is taken a time later after he had now bled onto the tarmac, for a period longer.
Thank You for clearing this up for me and It makes sense. I found it rather puzzling.
The Best Mystery Is An Unsolved Mystery….
Honestly, it still doesn’t make sense to me. Paramedics wouldn’t need to pull him out with his head and arms dangling even more-so to check to see if he was alive. And at that point, what good does it do to photograph the scene–after it’s been altered. If they are going to check for vitals, they don’t need to pull him out like that and if they are going to pull him out, pull him out!
“…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep.“ L.A. Times, 1969
Tahoe
I whole heartedly agree with you in the handling of Stine’s body.
Some things do not seem logical or handled professionally.
But I guess verifying someone’s vitals takes precedent over evidence…I
do state this sarcastically.
The Best Mystery Is An Unsolved Mystery….
Honestly, it still doesn’t make sense to me. Paramedics wouldn’t need to pull him out with his head and arms dangling even more-so to check to see if he was alive. And at that point, what good does it do to photograph the scene–after it’s been altered. If they are going to check for vitals, they don’t need to pull him out like that and if they are going to pull him out, pull him out!
No they shouldn’t but lets assume then this is how he was found. It took at least 2 minutes for police to arrive and even longer for this photograph 1 to be taken. Therefore we would have to assume that after Zodiac left the scene, Paul Stine did not bleed onto the roadside for this period of time ie: no blood by his left hand and beneath his head. Then by the time photograph 2 was taken he had resumed bleeding. This is not possible. If also he was found with the door shut, why no photographs of this. The three teenagers also saw Zodiac mid to passenger side with Stine over his lap, but Paul Stine in the photographs below is hanging out the door, he has moved horizontally across the seat, are we to assume Zodiac dragged him over himself making it extremely difficult to shut the door.
But if you assume Stine was found like this and 2/3 minutes had elapsed probably, before the image 1 was captured, considering he was still bleeding heavily, testified by image 2 and the blood on the roadside, where is the blood in the period of 2+ minutes before Image 1 is taken. He could not have been found in this position and had to be moved other than Zodiac.
i think the blood is from the door. you can see a thin blood trail on the bottom of the car in picture one. i think there was a pool of blood against the door and when they opened it the blood on door dripped down onto the street. just my 2 cents.
ps – i guess i’m saying the blood IS in picture one, it’s just mostly out of the frame. picture 2 makes it look like the blood is coming directly from stine but it’s not, it’s dripping from the bottom of the door.
Doesn’t seem like much blood on the door
