In every accepted Z attack he puts distance between himself and the victims and avoids a physical struggle.

First two attacks victims shot from a distance – he even goes through the trouble of telling us how he does this in his letters.

Third attack he approaches people on an isolated spit of land and gets them tied up before attacking.

He AVOIDS confrontation where he might have to engage in a physical struggle.

I believe him to be disabled in some way, especially when considering the reports of some kind of odd walking style.

Shooting someone from the back seat of a cab sets him up in exactly the kind of situation he would want.

Yes. A cowardly, ambush style attack is, IMO, exactly what this was. I don’t think Stine saw the gun, let alone struggle with Zodiac. Stine never knew what hit him.

I understand what’s so persuasive about this argument. That is that sitting in the back is more likely because he would have had more control over his victim. I’m not saying he sat in the front, but this particular argument doesn’t persuade me much one way or the other.

The back has some disadvantage, in that if the victim were to struggle they could use the seat as a bit of shield, sure not much of shield, but if a struggle ensued between the back and front seats it would be harder to control the outcome. It’s not impossible to imagine the victim spotting the gun, ducking behind the seat and crawling out the door while the killer struggles awkwardly to clamber over the seat. Yes you could fire over the seat, but it makes me think of the famous footage of the guy getting shot point blank who ducks and weaves behind the tree, sure it’s not totally effective, but it makes shooting him properly surprisingly awkward, that guy survived. If I had a gun on someone I’d want to be as close as possible, with nothing in between us, I would think that would give me better control of the situation.

But look I’m playing devils advocate. All I’m saying is I don’t see any significant strategic advantage to sitting in the back, or indeed the front for that matter. It’s all much the same to me.

The best argument against the front seat theory is that it is the norm for passengers to sit in the back. The best argument for the front seat theory is that it is what the teens originally reported.

Oh, but wasn’t there a book, or notepad, or something found on the front passenger seat under the body? If so, then that would be the best argument against the front seat theory.

In order for Zodiac to shoot Stine while sitting in the passenger seat, he would have had to reach across his body and angle the gun downward and forward at close range.

That is an awkward way to shoot someone if you’re right-handed. Not so much if you are left-handed. The left-handed shooter is going to risk taking brass to the face, though, depending upon the position of Stine’s head. It makes more sense that Zodiac sat in the back seat. If the best argument that he sat is the front seat is that Armstrong said so from Carol’s hearsay statement, I am not convinced. Either way, I don’t think it matters, unless you have a specific person known to Stine in mind as a suspect.

What if Zodiac was left handed ? That may throw a monkey into the wrench.

A left-handed shooter in the front seat would expose his weapon to Stine. Stine would be far more likely to see the killer reaching for a gun with the hand closest to him.

I believe Zodiac knew Stine because his sister Carol stated that Zodiac rode in front, per Inspector Armstrong, and Paul only allowed people he knew to ride in front.

Embedded within your claim are the assumptions that Armstrong actually told Carol that Zodiac likely road in the front seat, that Armstrong was not mistaken, that Carol heard Armstrong correctly, that Stine told Carol that he only allowed friends to ride in his front seat, that Carol heard that correctly, and that Stine never varied from his alleged practice. This is precisely why hearsay is not admissible in court.

Well we’re not in court and if we were then Carol and Armstrong would have testified. Your post is worthless.

And Armstrong never said Zodiac "likely" rode in front according to Carol. There was no "likely" about it. So if you are going to nitpick, pay better attention I guess.

And Armstrong never said Zodiac "likely" rode in front according to Carol. There was no "likely" about it. So if you are going to nitpick, pay better attention I guess.

But as to you, it’s hearsay. I don’t recall you saying that you heard Armstrong say anything. So, you’re relying on Carol telling you what Armstrong said, which is hearsay. If Carol testified in court, her statement about what Armstrong said would be inadmissible hearsay. Armstrong could certainly testify about what he concluded based upon evidence. My point is that we have NO IDEA what Armstrong actually said because it’s being relayed through someone else. I guess you can believe Carol if you want, but the remainder of her statements don’t jive either. She remarks about witnesses seeing a scuffle and Paul struggling with Zodiac for the gun. Where did that come from? She sounds like she got some bad information.

Thanks, I know how court works.

I looked into ambidexterity some time ago because I write left-handed but I perform most fine motor tasks with my right hand.

Turns out there are NO hard fast rules to ambidexterity. It is a spectrum. Left handed writers that use left handed scissors would be one extreme on the LEFT and right handed writers who use right handed scissors on the other.

So if you made a graph of just that writing and scissors it would be the basis of a plot of the types of peoples ambidexterity. It would be crude but it exemplifies the point that left handed writers and left handed skills are not identical.

Z be closer to the middle say if he uses his left hand for more than gross motor skills and was ambidexterous in writing.
edit: (I am using the well known example of Arthur Leigh Allen for my hypothetical Z suspect.)

I put myself where I go on the graph. Can you add 3rd dimensions for other motor skills? I don’t know how to classify.

Lefties dont all write the same. I write left top to bottom with paper rotated clockwise 90 degrees towards my chest but I can write with the paper almost upside down too. My childhood friend was a lefty and wrote left to right across the page getting ink all over his hand. He torqued his hand having the appearance of deformity while he wrote though nothing really preventing him from adapting to some more comfortable style.

I use SCISSOR for the general fine motor control axis. WRITING for the specific fine motor control of writing of course.

Please identify any better understand you may have of the differences in classification if you know.

What if Zodiac was left handed ? That may throw a monkey into the wrench.

A left-handed shooter in the front seat would expose his weapon to Stine. Stine would be far more likely to see the killer reaching for a gun with the hand closest to him.

I looked into ambidexterity some time ago because I write left-handed but I perform most fine motor tasks with my right hand.

Turns out there are NO hard fast rules to ambidexterity. It is a spectrum. Left handed writers that use left handed scissors would be one extreme on the LEFT and right handed writers who use right handed scissors on the other.

So if you made a graph of just that writing and scissors it would be the basis of a plot of the types of peoples ambidexterity. It would be crude but it exemplifies the point that left handed writers and left handed skills are not identical.

Z be closer to the middle say if he uses his left hand for more than gross motor skills and was ambidexterous in writing.

I put myself where I go on the graph. Can you add 3rd dimensions for other motor skills? I don’t know how to classify.

Lefties dont all write the same. I write left top to bottom with paper rotated clockwise 90 degrees towards my chest but I can write with the paper almost upside down too. My childhood friend was a lefty and wrote left to right across the page getting ink all over his hand. He torqued his hand having the appearance of deformity while he wrote though nothing really preventing him from adapting to some more comfortable style.

I use SCISSOR for the general fine motor control axis. WRITING for the specific fine motor control of writing of course.

Please identify any better understand you may have of the differences in classification if you know.

What if Zodiac was left handed ? That may throw a monkey into the wrench.

A left-handed shooter in the front seat would expose his weapon to Stine. Stine would be far more likely to see the killer reaching for a gun with the hand closest to him.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. My point was that if a left-handed shooter sat next to Stine, to draw his weapon and shoot Stine, he would expose his weapon to Stine because it would be in the hand closest to Stine. I DID NOT say that a left-handed person would necessarily shoot with his left hand (I can shoot well with both hands). The converse would be true for a right-handed shooter… his weapon would be shielded, at least initially, by his body, thus obscuring Stine’s view of the weapon until it was likely too late to do something about it. I offered no opinion on which hand a left-handed person would use to shoot someone. So, I am struggling to see your point. Can you clarify?

You say you would could shoot right or left handed. I would never try.

I am introducing a dimension to the conversation that extends to lack of a metric showing handedness.

You ask what if he was left-handed. Good point. Was ALA a left and right handed writer but a left handed shooter? Or some other variation? We know he had guns and he reportedly wrote at least left handed.

This to me is a can of worms that so far you and I are only right now beginning to discuss. Does LE even look into testing for ambidexterity?

Maybe this should be a separate thread. Your comment got me thinking for the reasons I previously explained.

Sitting in the front seat with Paul Stine seems to indicate being right handed. What part of shirt was taken?

If he held a knife with left hand then maybe he would go to driver side to open door to get clean scrap of shirt just as good as bloody one.

Where would Stine have kept his wallet. Right back pocket? Would have been hard to get to if Stine was slumped over on right side…

Seems to me taking wallet may have been an attempt to make it look like a burglary. I would have taken keys and left wallet otherwise as the Z. Would have left keys and taken wallet as a burglary.

According to the autopsy report, Stine had "dark marks" on his left hand. Which some have speculated was due to a brief struggle (I don’t know if those marks were ever investigated more thoroughly). We can also speculate who "Some of them fought" was a reference to on the Crackproof Card, IF we think that’s legit (LE claimed it was confirmed at the time).

Also, how nimble do you have to be with either hand to put a gun up to someone’s head and pull the trigger? That’s a whole ‘nother can of worms compared to writing legibly.

Also, how nimble do you have to be with either hand to put a gun up to someone’s head and pull the trigger? That’s a whole ‘nother can of worms compared to writing legibly.

It’s a question of shooting mechanics and where a left or right-handed shooter might keep his gun. I think the shot from the front seat is much more awkward, regardless of whether the shooter is left or right-handed. The right-handed shooter has to move the weapon across his body…it’s a bigger motion and makes it easier for Stine to notice. A left-handed shooter exposes his weapon to Stine (at least the right-handed shooter has his left hand to pin Stine against the driver’s door while he puts the gun to his head. The left-handed shooter has to turn his body to use his right hand in the same way. That’s a very awkward motion and it’s very slow. I don’t have a very strong opinion one way or the other whether Zodiac was in the front or back seat, but I think executing the shooting is much harder if the killer is in the front seat because Stine can more readily see what the killer is doing and when he reaches for his gun. The killer is much more likely to catch Stine completely by surprise if he is in the back seat.