bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:17 pm

You’re lucky it’s raining today.

Washington and Maple is the one by the golf course. The closest addresses are about a mile away as you can see by the ruler. The Larkin and Burnette streets with no address are not shown. Also Pan Arama is Panarama, and it is 2 miles to the south.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:18 pm

A couple things I noticed about her address book was that she knew somebody in StateLine (Donna Lass),…

I asked Jim Crabtree about Ms. Cossette and he said the name sounded familiar. I asked him after he said he and Darlene had lived in the South Lake Tahoe area.

(your above post is worth it’s own thread)

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:33 pm

You’re lucky it’s raining today.

Washington and Maple is the one by the golf course. The closest addresses are about a mile away as you can see by the ruler. The Larkin and Burnette streets with no address are not shown. Also Pan Arama is Panarama, and it is 2 miles to the south.

Great work,thansk Bentley. I seem to recall the Divisadero/Lombard streets not far from teh Stine scene being of some interest. I believe that the theater group that did the Mikado play was over in that area, I will have to look at my notes.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Pelisetti and his partner were closer to the crime scene, they arrived within minutes.. Foukes and Zelms were about 7 blocks away on Predisidio Ave., heading NORTH when they passed Washington the dispatch for the incident at Washington and Cherry St. comes in,..Pelisetti, herds the kids back to the house, looks over Paul Stine, interviews the kids and finds out it was a white male., not a NMA.. Pelisetti calls in the correction and heads out to look for the suspect. Foukes and Zelms spot Z on the NORTH side of Jackson near MAPLE. Z looks down when he sees the police and turns onto the stairs at 3712 MAPLE. Foukes slows down somewhat to look at Z while they pass.."still rolling" according to Foukes. Foukes and Zelms come across Pelisetti and the exchange between the two officers take place, Foukes and Zelms turnaround to head back to Jackson..there is no way to get to Pacific Ave. from a car in that immediate area of the crime scene as there is a high retaining wall..which separates the Presidio (the park area and army base) from the residential area. Where Z went or hid after that would be pure conjecture, but we have to assume that Z was close enough to see what happened and yet far enough to escape or get away. The one thing that does stand out is that Z looked down to avoid eye contact and maybe to hide his face..other things about that area is that it is very quiet during the day and even quieter at night. It is also very dark right there in that area..the homes there are multi-million dollar homes and it is an area where very wealthy people live. I think that could be another reason why Z killed there …to instill fear into the higher class along with everyone else..but that’s just my opinion. Another question, if Z knew the area well, he should have been able to to ID Washington and Cherry as the intersection instead referring to it as "over by Washington and Maple" …that sort of tells me Z used Maple as a sort of landmark to tell himself where he was..sure he mailed letters from other parts of SF, it sounds to me like it could have been his first or second time to that specific area. Z says he hid in the park, and to the east of the search area in his other letters..he also know they searched with dogs etc..so where ever he was, he was privy to all that was going on. I lived in SF for roughly 10 years on Green St. and Laguna..You can also have a great view of that whole area at Broadway and Lyon St. and there is a gateway into and away from the presidio there..only Z knows where he was though..

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:38 pm

Greg….

If you’re saying F & P answered the same dispatch that just didn’t happen. When Foulkes receives the dispatch on Presidio & Wash. he is 1 minute from arriving at Jackson & Cherry, having seen Z in between. We don’t know where P was, it wouldn’t really matter as far as hooking up with F at Jackson/Cherry. P couldn’t have done all he did @ Wash/Cherry, then procede to look for Z heading down Cherry and hook up with Foulkes all within 1 minute.
In lieu of the Manson murders in upscale areas of LA, I too think Z purposely chose PH area for his crime. Shows he had a knowledge of the area (where the rich folks lived).
As for his statement "over there by Wash and Cherry". I know we’ve always taken that to show he was unfamiliar maybe with the area. But maybe he wasn’t saying that at all. Maybe he knew the neighborhood intimately. We have to assume that Z wrote the note about the crime on Sunday, since he refers to it as "last night". What if Z is sitting in the place he escaped to the night before, writing his letter. He refers to the place of the crime as "Over there by Wash & Cherry", because he is sitting over here on Jackson & wherever., And the crime scene is over there. could be that’s how he meant it.
What Z writes about on that Sunday really doesn’t tell us he saw anything, he doesn’t mention the dogs, or the fire trucks, or the fact that they lit the park up like a ballfield, he only mentions the motorcicles. he may have only been able to hear what was going on, and not see the park area at all. And the only discernable sound he could hear would be those motorcicles. Just a thought.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:43 pm

BA60s..,

Foukes says when they heard the dispatch at Washington and Presidio it was for a Negro male adult, I assume this was the first dispatch, as it is the one that is in error, until Pelisetti corrects it after speaking with the kids…Pelisetti got to the crime scene first..assuming from a westerly direction since he was able to park facing the nose of the cab..and he stated he got there within minutes of the crime being committed..whilst Pelisetti is herding the kids back to the house and asking what the guy looked like Z more than likely is just turning right and east on Jackson. At this time Foukes and Zelms are cruising west..on Jackson and heading right towards the Zodiac.. (I don’t know how many dispatches went out, but I am trying to use P and F’s interviews as reference).
Z didn’t use "over by Washington and Cherry", he used "over by Washington and Maple" …and if he knew the area intimately, he should have used "over at "Washington and Cherry"… So when I re-traced the crime scene and read the letters, it is clear that Z didn’t leave the city immediately..but I feel he used that Pacific avenue wall to his advantage…he had to..it’s too perfect not to in later letters he gives actual measurements as to how far things were to him..and that he was in the park..I personally feel he was on the fringe of the park so he could immerse himself into the city..amongst other people..there is a great crest of the hill to see everything from..and still be right on Lyon street amongst people and traffic…but as i said anything outside the facts is conjecture at best…one thing for sure is he would never knowingly be seen again !

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:05 pm

The Nov 9 letter states: "The dogs never came within 2 blocks of me and they were to the west and there was only 2 groups of barking about 10 minutes apart then the motorcicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west."

Odd that he uses the term ‘blocks’, though there are areas within the Presidio where one might use the term.

The sergeant in charge of the dog team search says they didn’t arrive for 40 minutes.

Retired cop recalls search for Zodiac Killer

BILLINGS, Mont. – A generation has passed since the Zodiac Killer seized headlines in central California, and time has done little to penetrate the mystery surrounding his killing spree.
What haunts Charlie Beene, a retired San Francisco police captain now living in Billings, is just how close his fellow officers came to cracking the riddle for good – by capturing the notorious killer as he left a still-fresh crime scene.
"They had the Zodiac in their hands," Beene recalls of responding officers.
The Zodiac – the killer’s self-appointed nickname – is believed to have murdered five people in the San Francisco Bay area between December 1968 and October 1969, though the killer has claimed responsibility for more than 35 victims in letters he wrote to taunt his pursuers.
Despite a massive investigation, police never learned the killer’s identity, and more than 30 years later the case remains steeped in lore, inspiring new examinations of the evidence, tips and theories from amateur sleuths and retellings such as "Zodiac," a recent film that examines the toll the crimes exacted on three people who spent their careers following them.
To many observers, police were never closer to catching their man than on Oct. 11, 1969.
That was the night the Zodiac claimed his fifth victim, a cab driver who was murdered while delivering a man to a respectable neighborhood in San Francisco. The Zodiac, posing as a customer, shot 29-year-old Paul Stine once in the head at point-blank range, rifled his pockets and walked away.
Beene, then a night-shift sergeant in charge of the department’s crack dog unit, got his five dog handlers together and helped search for the gunman.
At first, the shooting was assumed to be a robbery gone bad, at a time when cabbies were routinely the targets of violence. Although police had no reason to suspect the local serial killer, their prospects of catching the gunman looked solid: Not too much time had elapsed, and three teenagers got a good look at the killer as he wiped down the car and walked down the street.
They described the man as white, 35 to 45 years old, 5 feet 10 inches, between 180 and 200 pounds, barrel-chested with light-colored, crew-cut hair and glasses. He was assumed to have taken off into the Presidio, an historic Army post open to the public with a large playground and park.
Beene and his crew arrived 40 minutes after the shooting was reported and were immediately discouraged by what they found. Police officers and an Army platoon were crisscrossing the Presidio in squad cars and motorcycles; if the killer had left a scent trail for Beene and his fellow dog-handlers, it was not a leap to assume it had long since dissipated.
Add the stiff ocean breezes and it was virtually a foregone conclusion.
"As soon as we saw the set-up and the officers driving all over the park and all over the playground, a couple of the guys said, ‘Ah sarge, we don’t have a chance,"’ Beene recalled of that night. "I said, ‘We’re the experts, we’ll give them the best search that we can."’
Beene, handling his canine partner Darius, divided the park into three zones and directed the other dog handlers to search the middle third while the cops and soldiers took the opposite zones. Chances of finding the killer were "slight and none," especially if he had been on the run for the full 40 minutes, Beene said. Predictably, the trail had gone cold and the search was called off a few hours later.
Three days later, the Zodiac killer sent a letter taking credit for Stine’s shooting and included proof – a blood-stained swatch of fabric that he tore from Stine’s shirt before leaving the crime scene.
The Zodiac taunted that police botched their dragnet after arriving that night, writing, "The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcycles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars & sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover."
The killer also claimed he had even spoken to a pair of officers who were among the first to arrive at the murder scene.
The claim was bolstered nearly a month later when an officer came forward with a chilling admission: he and a colleague had indeed seen a man matching the killer’s description, but failed to stop him because of a tragic mistake – a police dispatcher had initially relayed the suspect was a black man.
"They let him go," Beene said. "They didn’t have any reason to hold him."
The Zodiac killer took credit for many other killings and threatened acts of terrorism, such as blowing up a school bus. The threats did not materialize, and investigators generally agree he is responsible for four separate attacks, in which five people were killed and two wounded. The victims were apparently chosen at random and either shot or stabbed. They included a waffle house waitress, a couple on their first date and a pair of picnickers.
The three other attacks occurred in Benicia, Vallejo and Lake Berryessa, all in the Bay area.
These days, pondering his "very slight role" in the search for the Zodiac, Beene wonders how the killer’s legacy would read had the communications error not occurred or had police been more careful in setting up a perimeter around the Presidio and preserving the scent trail.
"We probably could have gotten him with one of our dogs – but those are just what-ifs," he said.
Beene, who met his wife, LeAnne, while playing for the Mustangs during the 1955 season, moved to Billings shortly after retiring in 1987. His basement walls are lined with photographs documenting his 28-year career in the San Francisco Police Department and he has compiled stacks of scrapbooks collecting memorabilia and newspaper clippings about the cases he worked.
San Francisco was a turbulent place in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and Beene can rattle off anecdotes about the unrest that dominated headlines in those days. Police were gunned down "about every three months," groups like the Symbionese Liberation Army brought the constant threat of upheaval, and the city was in the grip of a cultural revolution that drew teenage runaways by the hundreds.
One day in 1973, Beene discovered a woman who had nearly been decapitated. The case earned national attention when investigators later determined she was the victim of the Death Angels, a black-supremacist group blamed for the murders of 16 whites in their bid to foment a race war.
Beene’s assignments included a four-year post in a special decoy unit, in which officers posed as homeless or elderly civilians and waited for criminals to come to them.
"I’ve been robbed 365 times," he said. On one of those occasions, he lay in a doorway behind an adult movie theater as a group of teens pondered whether he might one of the decoy cops they had heard about.
"If I stick him in the neck with a knife, we’ll see if he bleeds like a cop," one teen said into his ear.
Beene rose to the rank of captain, where he oversaw the tactical company, which consisted of several special units including the bomb squad, the mounted police, the dog unit and the SWAT team. In a career-capping assignment, he coordinated security for the 1984 Democratic National Convention. Police made more than 350 arrests, and no major acts of violence were reported.
Since retiring, Beene has taught criminal justice at a now-closed technical college, volunteered in programs to aid the elderly and worked with a University of Montana program that tracks tourism. He’s written a book about large-scale convention planning and still offers his services to law enforcement.
"I’m ready if they want me," he said. "All they have to do is call.

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Greg.
Isn’t it crazy that after almost 43 years and the principal’s are still alive and we have to try and figure this out. If what F says is true and he was approaching Wash. on Presidio when he received the dispatch of the BMA cab robbery, well we know for sure it’s only 1 minute (actually about 50 secs.) at 35-40mph to Jackson and Cherry.
If P. is responding to the same dispatch, and he’s close, as he says he was, then about the time he would be arriving at Wash/Cherry, F would be at Jackson/Cherry. It just doesn’t work. According to what P. states in the DVD, it goes even further than that. He states there that he goes all the way to Maple and Jackson, and then back to Cherry & Jackson and then runs into F. If that’s true, then F. is receiving the dispatch as P. is walking back up Jackson to Cherry. How much time has now passed since P. first rolled up on scene, until F would be getting the OLD dispatch message. At this time only Pel. & Pita know there has been a murder & that the killer was white. There has to be a 10 minute gap there. In 10 minutes Z could have been in Sausalito, but we know he wasn’t.
The only way that’s believable is if the 2nd dispatch goes out with the first dispatch’s incorrect information. But even then, from a timeline perspective, it doesn’t work.

I think too much has been made over the Wash/Maple reference. I think the key is using "Over there". He kills people up in Vallejo and says he’s the one who killed those folks in the N. Bay. I’ve known many people who’ve lived in neighborhoods for decades and couldn’t name the streets around them. He doesn’t say in S.F. in Presidio Heights, he calls it over there, that to me shows a close geographical relationship to the area that he’s in on the following day.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:28 pm

Bently….

By the Nov. 9th letter everything Z reveals there has already been reported publicly. the fact that he would say he was in the park, doesn’t surprise me, if he was actually in a place. Again his reporting seems more based on what he could hear than what he could see. Other than stating they didn’t come within 2 blocks of him and they were to the west of him.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:46 pm

@ Bentley – good observance, and this hypotetically..puts Z around where I am saying he could have been…and it makes sense because there is a sweeping view of that whole area from there…can see from Lyon Street almost to the other end of pacific ave..about 1000 yards or so..

@ BA60s…- I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on how things transpired…Pelisetti doesn’t give a minute by minute account of how things transpired..just that he got there.,told the kids to go back to the house..maybe ask what he looked like..looked over Stine..then started towards Jackson via Cherry..his partner had to have something to do also…but I am sure Pelisetti operated with speed as he felt he could catch the killer…even in this scenario, Z could have been hiding as Pelisetti passed him, then when Pelisetti retreated to the crime scener after not seeing anything continued his
journey where Foukes and Zelms spot him and look him over, then Foukes goes one more block..exchange some words with Z..and Foukes turns around to look over the wall and into the nearby foliage of Julius Kahn playground. but who really knows? We’d need a breakdown of a timeline to know..exactly..you can’t just zip through this neighborhood as the streets are narrow, there are some stop signs and there is other traffic to worry about…
I wouldn’t put that journey at exactly one minute…the area is very dark also..plus you have hilly streets..etc..I’d put it more at like 3 – 5 minutes…from Presidio Ave to Cherry..

bayarea60s, Subject: Foulkes timeline Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:34 am

Greg….

you can disagree with Foulkes timeline, but it’s real. We’ve re-enacted it too many times. We’re talking less than 3/4 mile @ 35-40 mph, cop with running lights on, very familiar with streets, says he only went 35-40mph cause it was residential, 5 stop signs, wide intersections, no traffic, And Z, if he headed N. on Maple towards park, he wouldn’t have to hurdle any wall, there’s a walk through there. Our times were between 1Min./ 14 Secs. and 1 min/28 secs., but we had to stop at each stop sign.
If you go to Tom’s site there’s quite a few pics from the Lyon’s Ave, perspective. But again how would Z determine cops would be going there at all? He’s in his getaway car, but doesn’t getaway.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:40 am

BA60s,
I will leave it as it is..basically that Z killed Stine at the intersection, and escaped..because of a goof on the description of the suspect..
I don’t have and theories or suspects to pump….I am just trying to peel back the layers and see what’s there…for all we know, Z could have been up a tree somewhere or in the actual army barracks..he did imply certain things, but are we supposed to take it as truth or just ploys? He obviously loved rubbing his nose in the cops boo boos…and until someone comes up with Stine’s Keys or wallet, we may never know who this guy is..poor Foukes has to live with the fact that they came close to catching Z. There is common sense and minutia, which we can discuss over and over, but I will let it rest at the known facts…

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:11 pm

What about the military aspect? Z is long suspected of having a military background of sorts. Could the PH location have been chosen based on a knowledge of the Presidio from military experience? On one hand I think not because I don’t think he intended on being chased (or even seen), he may have just figured he’d do the crime and just walk away unnoticed. On the other hand, for someone who did know the Presidio area well it made for a great area of retreat.

There was some info from one of the Presidio men who joined in the search, I was trying to find it when I came across the dog team info I posted. Can’t seem to find it now.

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:02 pm

What about the military aspect? Z is long suspected of having a military background of sorts. Could the PH location have been chosen based on a knowledge of the Presidio from military experience? On one hand I think not because I don’t think he intended on being chased (or even seen), he may have just figured he’d do the crime and just walk away unnoticed. On the other hand, for someone who did know the Presidio area well it made for a great area of retreat.

There was some info from one of the Presidio men who joined in the search, I was trying to find it when I came across the dog team info I posted. Can’t seem to find it now.

Possible,but I personally dont think Z would have been active military. He was described at times (depending on the witnesses you asked)as fat/chubby,and if he was 5ft8 and 200 lbs,he could very well be too out of shape to be active military.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:39 pm

He was described at times (depending on the witnesses you asked)as fat/chubby,and if he was 5ft8 and 200 lbs,he could very well be too out of shape to be active military.

I’d still consider a cop then. :pig:

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:04 pm

Or a pogue.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:17 pm

Well, you can present different possibilities, and some may be true, but one thing no one can argue or disagree with: Zodiac got away.

bayarea60s, Subject: Train… Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Train….

He sure did. One simple word change on a dispatch would have changed everything. Probably one of the biggest fopahs in Serial Killer Case history. Z didn’t deserve that kind of break.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Yes, one BIG mistake – it is funny that SFPD did not elaborate on it, either.

Perhaps that stopped Z’s crimes for a while. He knew his plan went wrong and came very close to being caught. Had he kept his same MO, he would have made a bigger mistake somewhere along the way. For awhile, he was content in taunting the public and police with his letters.

If it was, indeed, Zodiac who Kathleen Johns encountered, she got a big break when the driver turned on the wrong ramp leading up to the freeway.

bayarea60s, Subject: I Still Do Wonder Though Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:08 pm

I do still wonder whatever happened to that second dispatch. The correction to the initial dispatch. The call was made before Pel. started down Cherry, before F. saw Z.
It is odd.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:45 pm

Possible,but I personally dont think Z would have been active military. He was described at times (depending on the witnesses you asked)as fat/chubby,and if he was 5ft8 and 200 lbs,he could very well be too out of shape to be active military.

Don’t forget that Mageau stated he was well-built but muscular "not blubbery". Fouke described Z as about 5’10", husky, heavy-set and likened him to being built like a Welsh miner (they definitely had to be strong and fit). If it was Z, then Kathleen Johns described him as lean and of military appearance and if he was the mysterious voyeur at Lake B, those girls described him as 6ft, well-built and nice looking.

Only Bryan Hartnell described him as paunchy or sloppily dressed but there’s a very good chance that his big jacket with knife holster, gun and pre-cut ropes around his waist made him look more packed out and flabby. I think the cops estimate of his weight at around 225 pounds based on the footprint didn’t help as well as this made everyone think he was a right lump of a bloke.

Z’s height seemed to be estimated as between 5’8" and 6ft and his weight ranged from 160 – 200pounds so he might well have been physically strong and fit if in the middle of those figures.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:10 pm

Anyone know what the restrictions were for entering the Presidio back then? Were the gates open for anyone to pass through?

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:45 pm

Anyone could walk through the Presidio. They must have had gates there somewhere…Now back in those days I was on foot, so maybe you couldn’t drive in. From what I’d seen on other bases Presidio definetely seemed relaxed. I guess part of that SF charm.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:00 pm

Thanks BA60. I see an Arguello gate and a Lombard gate mentioned, maybe they were always just left open. What I’m wondering is if Z had to exit through a specific street or gate. Are the walls low enough to climb? I guess it was impossible for LE to seal off all exit points.

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:02 pm

If there was evidence that Z was military or escaped onto the base, that could have opened the dorr for the feds to take over this case(or at least assist with more than prints & writing), and the case might be solved today

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:13 pm

I believe the entire Presidio is the ‘base’, including the Julius Kahn playground, so being that LE and the Presidio MPs searched it, I’d say that qualifies as evidence he escaped there.

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:16 pm

I believe the entire Presidio is the ‘base’, including the Julius Kahn playground, so being that LE and the Presidio MPs searched it, I’d say that qualifies as evidence he escaped there.

Can you plot on a map where he was observed by Fouke & where Juilis Kahn playground is? Maybe with a closeup of sorrounding street names? thanks

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:57 pm

The fact that MP and SFPD searched the Presidio is evidence they think Zodiac was there, not specific proof he was.

The only possible speculation I have, and it is not meant to serve as an excuse, but most Police Departments are extremely busy on a Friday and Saturday nights. Mistakes do happen, but this wrong describtion that was dispatched (BMA vs WMA) was a big one.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:04 am

Here’s the entire Presidio with Washington and Cherry, and the Julius Kahn playground marked with a red dot. You may have to zoom in.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:43 am

Here are some photos to go along with the map, above:

1. This is Cherry looking up towards Washington and the crime scene

2. This is the end of Maple. Gate at right leads into Presidio

3. This is Jackson Street, approximately where Foulke encountered Zodiac

4. This overhead photo is the entire crime scene. Yellow mark indicates Stine’s taxi.
Red path is approximately the route Zodiac took to where he encountered Foulke.
Green Mark on Maple is the only logical place where Z would park his car on Maple.

4. Maple Street at Jackson. By the stop sign is around where Z would park his car. He would not put it in the cul-de-sac, in case he was "boxed" in.

bayarea60s, Subject: PH PICS Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:38 am

Great pics Train…..TY…..

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:22 am

Yes great pics Trainmaster…although Z could’ve parked his car or motorcycle…or whatever he used on the other side and on Pacific..
There is another gate close in proximity at Lyon, although it’s usually been locked everytime I’ve been there. It would be nice to know what the security measures for the Presidio were at the time of Stine’s murder…I know that at the present time that you will get a ticket if you park along that wall at Pacifica ave and the gate at maple…once could park legally on Pacific further east though near Spruce..just thoughts…that’s all..

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:57 am

Certainly lots of hiding spots, and houses for him to vanish into. Thanks for the photos.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:29 pm

Determining if Z had a car in the Presidio area, a safe house, lived on the base or whatever really requires us to understand the motive of the crime in the first place. Did he set out to commit murder, did a cab ride go wrong, was he just broke? It was a big variance from his pre-planned LB event just prior, and minus the lovers couple motive . The only evidence of planning was a gun and possibly something to cover his fingerprints. Z capalized on the big city aspect and newfound infamy for certain, maybe a cab driver was just and easy target.

Unless I’m missing something, I don’t have a theory one way ot the other.

StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:11 pm

My Opinion a cab driver is just was a easy target and the fact that you can get them to go willing where you want them. As for motive I believe he wanted the attention of San Francisco and wanted more publicity then he had.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:40 pm

I think Z had murder on his mind, I would think there were times where Z intended to kill on a given day/night and just couldn’t make it happen.

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:51 pm

I’m confused….how did the description of the killer of Paul Stine go from
25-35 years old, red brown hair, 5’8" to… 35-45 years old, red blonde hair,
heavy set, 5’8". The Police’s second dispatch for a guy in his forties, may have been
just as bad as to look for a black guy. The first sketch on Oct 13 is made with the teenagers,
who are stating 25-35 years, red brown hair. Was the description/sketch updated on account of the
Police encounter with someone who may have been the killer? You will never catch a guy in his
20s while lokking for someone who is 45.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:04 pm

Was the description/sketch updated on account of the
Police encounter with someone who may have been the killer?

It’s a pretty good bet since that is the age stated in Fouke’s memo.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:30 am

Remember how he had failed to kill Mageau and Hartnell? Perhaps he questioned his ability to kill a male and set out to kill Stine to prove he could still kill a man.

This theory is also listed in the book "This Is The Zodiac Speaking."

bayarea60s, Subject: Train Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:55 am

Train….

I think his desire was to kill them all.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:07 pm

Oh, I agree with you, Bay Area 60’s…..

I just presented a psychological theory from the excellent book listed above.

Let’s just supposed everything went according to plan – Z got away, no one saw him, no encounters.

What next????

He has the glory of being able to tackle a big city like SF and get away with it.
It would not be a surprise if he would be bold enough to take on LAPD next.

However, he would NOT want any kind of Federal LE involved as there are no jurisdictions and all FE agencies have access to state as well as Federal databases including, but not limited to, DMV, State Income Tax, IRS, SSN, state criminal and court records and so forth. The only way he would kill a military, let’s say Naval personnel, would be by accident because Naval military can dress in civilian clothes while on liberty. Accidentally killing a Naval person would automatically bring in the NCIS, who in turn, would invite the FBI into the case, out of courtesy since the two work together, since NIS was cognizant of how bad the FBI wanted in.
The only way the FBI could enter a Naval case would be by invitation from NCIS, but you can be assured the FBI would be called in. They might even
have been given charge of the case.

Back in those days, it would be just my luck to be on the "ready team" when that monster killed a Naval person, and eight** of us would have the responsibility of doing the work and the headache of tracking him down that Toschi had or any of the local LE. If he killed a non-military person (like the woman) along with the man, local LE would be involved, the the primary case was Federal and the locals would work with us. One advantage: NIS did not have jurisdictions. We could hunt Zodiac down anywhere. We also had more sophisticated equipment then most local LE had. (I am sure Z was aware of these facts).

So, Zodiac had plenty of reason to avoid the Feds.

**8 agents were ususally the number assigned to a ready team for a week, once a month. There could be a couple of more. Everyone else was "back-up," meaning they are on call if needed.

I have read (I don’t remember where) posts that suggest Zodiac was a merchant marine seaman for the Navy. If so, he would have worked out of MSCPAC (Military Sealift Command of the Pacific) which was headquarterd at the Naval Supply Depot (later Center) in Oakland, CA. Because it was part of the Navy, if Zodiac was in that occupation, NCIS would be involved. It has never been established that he was either (1) merchant seaman for MSCPAC or (2) a Naval military man.

zodio, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Every time I read that "He had to prove he could kill a male but raged with the females" quote I cringe. He had no problem with Faraday and the amount of stabs and bullets should have killed Bryan and Mike. Even Ceceilia hung on for quite a while and KJ wasn’t even touched. Just Psycho babble to me.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:50 am

If, by psycho babble, you are referring to psychological analysis, you are correct. The mind is effected in many ways, and the book "This Is The Zodiac Speaking" addresses that issue by a criminal psychologist.

Having a degree in that area, I, too, think Zodiac’s mind could have been deteriorating; when he encountered Johns, here was a pregnant woman with a child, and he did not know what to do. (Again, IF it was Zodiac, and a very good chance it was). The kid and a woman expecting birth of another threw him off. His usual MO was to come as close to his victims as he could, terrorize them, and then kill them and escape.

This time, he drove around for a few hours, saying something to the effect "You know you are going to die" but doing nothing. Her luck came when he made a turn into the wrong lane on Highway 5 – she kept calm and escaped.
There was a truck behind him, so he tried to find her, but quickly left when the truck driver got out.

Two or three hours driving around? That was not his usual method. Had she been alone, things might have been different. He did destroy her vehicle.

Again, people with this sort of mental deterioration often wind up in a mental instituation or suicide is often the result. That may be one reason we have not heard from him in a long time.

CERTAINLY one who was as publicity-hungry for attention as Zodiac would have spoken out with a letter enjoying the attention when Fincher’s movie was released. But, not a word from him. One reason would be he is either in prison, a mental ward or deceased (from suicide or other causes, including the possibility of drug overdose).

Unless a BIG break comes, I doubt we will know.
His silence at the peak of his attention from the Fincher film release speaks for itself. (Remember, he did write a letter in reference to a film about him and who would play him……it happened, and nothing from the killer. That lack of response says something.

There is a very good chance Z was taking drugs – and drugs, whether street or prescription drugs abused, can and does alter and/or destroy the mind…..and the person as well.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:25 pm

I was driving home through San Fran today and had time to detour over to Washington and Cherry, then though the Presidio to the GG bridge. Couple things caught my eye. First was the area on Jackson where F&Z spotted Z, which is steep enough a downhill, I think, to affect someone’s gait, which may in part account for the loping, lumbering or whatever it was Fouke noted.

I then went up to Arguello, entered the Presidio and took West Pacific past the Julius Kahn playground. The stone wall along the perimeter, which I assume has not changed significantly, varies in height from 4-5 feet, easy enough for a man of Z’s height to get over. But the vastness of the area, the hills, valleys, trees and vegetation make for an excellent hiding area. If LE was doing nothing but driving around the paved roads with their spotlights until the dogs got there I can see how Z was able to elude capture, if that’s in fact what he was doing. Wish I had brought a camera, really a beautiful area.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:27 am

Yes it is a great area Bentley, when I lived in SF..I lived maybe 10 blocks from the crime scene. I cruised around the crime scene by car, by motorcycle and by foot. When it gets dark in that area, it is EXTREMELY dark. It’s the perfect place to kill a cabbie and getaway FAST with minimal people out in the street as this is an ultra rich and ritzy area. There is still not too many people out at night in that area today. It is a quiet community. Just about 7 blocks to the east, you are back in the hustle and bustle of the city. I used to park and read at the gate to the presidio at Lyon and Broadway..it is an inspiring view. As I read Graysmith’s Zodiac, I replayed the scene in my mind many times and was lucky enough to have the scene pretty much right in front of me. As I researched more and more as time passed, we are lucky to still have that area pretty much unchanged from how it was when Z did his thing. I just hope in our lifetime, we find out who he is and catch him. I was impacted by him as a kid as Z was my first real -life boogy man..and I was terrified to go out at night when this all occurred.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:26 am

Bentley….

Yeah a very nice area. If you’re gonna live in the City, PH not bad. Now where did I put that extra $10Mil…..The lumbering gait…That was always my thought that some folks when they walk down any grade, it totally changes their normal gait. And it is steep enough to change one’s gait.

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:30 am

Greg….

My best friend’s cousin and his family were living in a house in the Presidio back in the 90’s. I recall it was in a court, beautiful views (naturally), when the base housing was put up for sale, they were able to bid on it. I think since they were already there had something to do with it. They bought it for $150K. Had to be the steal of the century. As far as I know they’re still there.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:47 am

Bay Area 60s – Bentley
That is a GREAT deal ! That area is very beautiful with the sea blown pine trees and all the greenery…I am sure those base houses are now going for upwards of $800K at least…the area was taken care really well by the military. Metallica bought a building there and turned it into a studio…and the Disney family bought some of the best commercial property there and put up the "Walt Disney Museum". I take friends and family there when they visit from out of town..I also take them by the Z crime scene as the houses there are pretty amazing. The "Mrs. Doubtfire" house is close by too..and there is also the great views of the bay and the Golden Gate Bridge ! There is also a really cool old church that the interior was from from the arches of real trees..I think it’s the Swedenborg Church..it looks like something out of the rennaissance ! I felt priveleged to have lived in that area.

bayarea60s, Subject: Presidio Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:55 am

Greg….

I haven’t been through the Presidio in years. Been by it a lot, but haven’t actually walked through it in a long time. I wonder if the golf course is still there?

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:37 am

Yeah it’s still there..I never played it though…I used to play a lot at nearby Lincoln Golf course though…both are damn pretty !!!

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:58 am

I went past the gold course, all the private housing yesterday…basically I got lost a couple of times trying to make it to the bridge. All pristine and gorgeous.

Still trying to piece something together as far as a clue, and still confused as ever. If I were going to do a thrill killing in the City, the first thought that comes to mind is to head down to the Tenderloin, Hunter’s Point or some such (skid row areas) where people get shot and the public just steps over the body. Z was up to something more by heading to Wash and Cherry, plus it was during his usual weekend evening time zone. But was it because he lived in the area (being there sure makes you think of Hunter or Mr. X), or knew the Presidio (from a military background) was an excellent hiding area, or because it was close to the GG bridge, or just because it was just a quiet, high profile area, or some combination of these thoughts?

Proximity to the bridge? The Marina would be the first place I would think of, and there are some pretty upscale streets there. Maybe more crowded. As Greg noted, there were other cars traveling with me yesterday down Lake and Arguello, but once I got to Wash and Cherry and circled the block the only person I saw was, ironically, someone walking a big old dog down Cherry.

My best guess is the proximity to the Presidio, it is striking when you’re there how quickly it goes from residential neighborhood to wooded open space. And possibly Z avoided Arguello because of it’s more main entrance to the Presidio, there were several cars entering yesterday when I was there, but once I turned on West Pacific I was pretty much alone. But then why not have Stine just drive him into the Presidio where he was sure to be alone? And I don’t see planning on having to make the getaway he did, I think he figured he would just "lumber" back to wherever without any need to hide in the park. A backup plan that he ended up needing maybe?

Was he parked on Jackson and entered the park only because he feared LE would stop him if he hopped right in his car? Or was he parked east of the Presidio where Greg mentions and hiked over that way through the park? That’s not a bad thought, since he mentions being west of where they were searching for him.

Dang I wish we could piece this together.

bayarea60s, Subject: The Dog Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:18 pm

Was that dog like really old?
I’ve always thought the reason Z chose PH was a Manson thing. To show folks he too would kill in upscale neighborhoods, so no one was safe. I don’t know, Charlie’s gang actually entered the homes of affluent people, Z didn’t. Hunter’s Point, Tenderloin, maybe too many people, maybe Z felt no one would care. PH much quieter. Maybe he had a relationship to that area? Yeah piecing it together isn’t easy….

morf13, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:55 pm

Maybe Z figured, if something went wrong, he could escape on foot into the Presidio and have plenty of cover. Seems to make sense. Also, regarding the PAUL PETRIE or PETRI guy that was just across the presidio, was that area there also an affluent area? I know many times, you can be surprised by a prestigious area backing up to a less than desireable area. I dont picture Z having alot of money(mismatched tires at Berryessa), so I cant see him living in a affluent area.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:56 pm

I agree with BayArea60s..that Z wanted to kill in an affluent neighborhood..to scare the upscale people. Just 1 block west of Wash & Cherry is the Presidio Terrace, a circular street where some city officials and politicians lived. I believe Diane Feinstein lived there sometime in the 70s. I also agree with Morf in that Z had limited funds. His clothes and mismatched tires were testimony to that. I felt Z possibly could have lived in a trailer park somewhere. (Just a guess) I also believe that Z knew some of the city but maybe not all of it. He definately traveled around, and mailed a lot of his letters from SF.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:25 pm

As long as I’m regurgitating Harry Martin stuff, here’s what he had to say about the Presidio:

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:52 am

Bay,

I was just looking for something else in Pelissetti’s report and noticed this. Think it might be the call Fouke responded to? It’s after this he apparently got the updated WMA description.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley…. Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:39 pm

Bentley….
Then the dispatch Foulkes should have heard was a WMA, armed and dangerous, killed cabbie by gunshot, instead he was looking for a BMA, Robber
So that would say that dispatch sent their updated message out as an APB, but gave all the SFPD responders the original message. So that means 2 dispatches sent, both wrong. And really the 2nd error was worst than the first. Really could have hung the SFPD responders out to dry.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:50 am

Yep, had Fouke and Zelms been shot dead by Z because they were on the hunt for a NMA it would have been even more tragic.

Noticed this in the yellow book: On Oct 18 Captain Lee addressed the press, stating "His boast of being in the area while we were searching it is a lie. We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of policemen searching tree by tree. The dogs are the best in the country. A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention. The fact that Zodiac failed to mention the lights or the dogs proves he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity."

Surely this was what spurned Z to go into more detail, true or not, about where he was, in feet and yards, in his November followup letter.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:37 pm

Surely this was what spurned Z to go into more detail, true or not, about where he was, in feet and yards, in his November followup letter.

I go back and forth with him being there or not.

He sees Fouke and Zelms…whether they acknowledged each other or not, Zodiac must have been a bit nervous. Would he walk back to watch things after such a close call? And what’s to see?

Then again, how big of an area REALLY were they able to light up? It would have been easy to observe from outside the lighted area–probably from several places.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:36 pm

He sees Fouke and Zelms…whether they acknowledged each other or not, Zodiac must have been a bit nervous. Would he walk back to watch things after such a close call? And what’s to see?.

If Fouke whipped around and down West Pacific fast enough he may have trapped Z in the Presidio, with Z afraid to come out and cross the road to escape. Or he may have gotten across West Pacific and watched from over the wall in someone’s back yard, with his car a short distance away.

bayarea60s, Subject: The Z getaway Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:12 pm

.He only mentioned in his first letter what one would be able to hear. He never mentions what he saw. What better way to rub the cops noses in their boo boo’s. He’s saying, "You cops couldn’t even run a decent search". He can be ID’d by 2 cops. I just don’t think you hang out where you can be found. I don’t think you use a getaway car, to not getaway. For myself I’d either have a car and be gone, but Z wasn’t quite gone, or I’d prefer to be on foot. On foot I can hide in tons of places while making my way out of the area.
And hindsight is great, but for me, had Foulkes turned around at Cherry headed back to where he saw Z, and if he thought Z really went into park, he spins into the end of Maple, lets Zelms out, Zelms then is on Pacific facing park, Foulkes goes back onto Jackson and heads east that was the direction Z was heading, and then turns left on Presidio and left onto Pacific and meets up with Zelms. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t immediately head right back to where you saw the guy. to go the long way, around Arguello in the direction you know for sure this guy can’t be has never made sense to me.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:19 pm

My guess is that Zodiac, if he returned to the area and observed the manhunt, did so in his car. Nobody would’ve paid him any attention; the cops were looking for a guy on foot.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:24 pm

Yep, that’s what they should have done. Probably figured Arguello was the quickest way to drive into the park, not to mention sending rookie Zelms out on foot alone.

What about this portion of the Chron article next day? Reporter embellishment?

patinky, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:32 pm

I’m curious as to how the K-9 units could search for Zodiac unless there was an established scent made at the scene of the crime. I know about the glove but how could they know for sure where the glove came from. Or were the dogs trained to sniff out any human within their range? If so, it is hard to believe that absolutely nothing was uncovered during the search, not even a direction or path?????

bayarea60s, Subject: Patinky Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:04 pm

My brother and I stood at Kahn Park with his buddy from the service, they were both in Southeast Asia during Nam Years. My brother’s buddy was part of the military K-9 group, and he had dogs. When we told him of the Z story, about hiding in the park he told us, this was around 70-71, that if he had only 1 dog he could cover the area, and if there was a human in that park he’d find him. He told us even without scent, the dogs would find a human hiding in this park. He said the difference in scent following dogs is the dog would simply walk right up to the guy, without it you may stir up some raccoons and skunks but the dogs would for sure find a human in the park.
Then he told us in Nam they used the dogs to find enemy hiding in underground tunnels. He said they had no human scent and tons of scent obstacles to overcome and those dogs worked great. He also told us that since Z fired a gun he’d have gunpowder residue, cop dogs are typically trained to find that out. At the end he said Z was full of it. He wasn’t in this park.
I watch my own dogs outside at night. We’re in the Sierras with tons of Pines. My dogs don’t know a thing about tracking and yet when their nose goes up in the air, you can follow it and always find a living critter. Many times can be skunk around here so I don’t follow often. When it’s a human their nose goes in the air and then they growl. I often wonder, how do they know the difference? And I’m talking a couple hundred yards away, that’s quite a distance.
A couple hundred yards and you’ve about covered the Julius Kahn Park Area.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Bay, when Z says he was in the park do you take that to me the JK playground or the Presidio? He had 35 or so minutes before the dogs got there to get somewhere else if he did cut through the JK playground.

I too saw a police dog catch a guy hiding in an empty movie theater in less than a minute. But even in the lead dog guy’s article I posted earlier (page 6) he says with all the other people and vehicles trouncing around, plus the foggy air, there was no way the dogs were going to find anyone.

patinky, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:24 pm

Thanks BayArea60s. That answers my question about the scent hounds.

bayarea60s, Subject: Z and the Park Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:41 pm

Bentley….

I take it to mean he was in the Julius Kahn Park Area, and not the Presidio. I don’t think he was in either. I think he had a place to go to.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:04 am

Fair enough. I was just reading your post on the Bates thread about PD response times. Makes me wonder if Z didn’t attempt to prop Stine up so passerbys might not notice anything wrong.

bayarea60s, Subject: Z Travels Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:29 am

Z travelling up to the Presidio? He could have. If he did get to Pacific he would have seen Foulkes coming from the west on Pacific, from the direction of the Presidio, so that may have detered him. Then again if he parked a car up there, he’d need to get to it. A much riskier hike, but who knows. It would mean that Z lied in his Nov letter when he said no one got within what, 150′ to the west of him? Something like that. Z caught in a lie, imagine that>>>>>

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:38 am

I misread your question, sorry….I believe he wanted us to believe he was referring to Julius Kahn Park.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:27 am

Foukes mentions when they went back to look for Z, they looked "over the wall"…he doesn’t mention that they went through the gate at Maple onto Pacific..although they probably kept a look out until the lights and dogs arrived, but unfortunately by this time, Z was somewhere safe. That whole area on Pacific at night is one dark SOB…and if fog rolls in..wow..it gets pretty dang hard to see…I walked along the back wall at pacific at night once you’re west of Spruce you run out of housing lights and hit pure darkness.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:01 am

And fog DOES roll in at night during that time of year. It is San Francisco’s built-in air conditioning system.

It is hard to say if Z was in the park or sat in his car and listened to the action.
Perhaps he had a scanner, crystal type, with SFPD’s main channel on. With darkness and fog, he could have been parked on Maple or nearby and just listened – then drove away.

There were several cab robberies that week and murders. San Francisco, then was a notorious high crime area, but NOT in Presidio Heights. That was a wealthy area. Hunter’s Point, Mission District, Tenderloin are most likely targets of murder cases. Although I would not go in those districts, Oakland has a lot more violent crime now then does S.F.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:13 am

I misread your question, sorry….I believe he wanted us to believe he was referring to Julius Kahn Park.

I left the City with my family when I was two years old (traffic was getting to me), so though I’ve been there 100s of times, the boundaries and nomenclature of the various areas are still unclear to me. Might also help those foolish enough to be following this thread, and perhaps give us a little more insight into Z, to clearly understand what "I was in the Park" means. I’ve always heard the Julius Kahn area referred to as a ‘playground’ by LE accounts, and as it’s referred to by Google Maps. It does more resemble a park though, with ball fields etc., unless that is not considered part of the Julius Kahn area. Then we have the Presido, the entire green area below, which is often referred to as the ‘Park Presidio’, and indeed the whole place is park like, luscious trees and greens everywhere. Then we have 19th Ave, which runs through and connects the GG bridge to areas south of San Fran, which is also referred to as Park Presidio.

The way Z describes the fire trucks, prowl cars and motorcycles running around I have taken it to mean the streets of the Presidio, not a Julius Kahn area specific search, and I agree, if Z and the search were confined to that area, they should have nailed him.

Again as most of you know, the crime took place approximately where the P in Presidio Heights is located, and the Presidio is the entire green area.

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg… Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:03 pm

My brother lived nearby in ’68-’70, about 6 blocks from Stine scene, and many times we’d find ourselves late at night over in the Marina Area, and so we’d walk home and cut through the park, usually stoned, and given what had taken place nearby and that darkness & fog your mentioned it would really freak me out. I wouldn’t say anything, but if someone had emerged even remotely resembling Z I’m sure I would have dropped dead on the spot. It could get downright spooky.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:20 pm

If we follow what Z says in his November letter, he was observing the cops the whole time, but he was to the east of them, and says they never got closer than 150′ west of him. If you go on maps and head along the Presidio due N. from say Jackson St. and then you’ll pass Pacific, then in between Pacific and Marina on the left side is the back end of Julius Kahn Park.
I don’t know what route the cops w/ dogs took but I would think since they were going through the wooded area (and it was heavier back then than today), they would have taken their search all the way out to Presidio Ave. If they didn’t then what Z says could be true. Someone is in communication with one of the Canine cops that was on site that night. The guy lives in Montana I believe. I’ve never heard them describe exactly where they searched. I’ve always assumed they’d search that entire area. I wouldn’t call it a small area, but it’s not Central Park either. Definetely doable within a couple hours by yourself, so with 4-5 other cops/canines, and who knows how many other cops were on foot out there I don’t see where it would take them more than an hour.
Now if they didn’t go into where it was thicker brush then they could I suppose miss him. I’ve just always thought if he was that close, he’d have seen the dogs, and mentioned them in his original letter from Oct. 12th.
I was reading through some Presidio stuff last night and it brought back to mind that, Oct. 11, 1969 was the one year anniversary of the great Presidio Stockade Uprising. One guy was killed in that uprising. I’m sure just a coincidence. but?????

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:27 am

I don’t know if this comment has anything to do with the above information, but there are public areas of the Presidio which includes Julius Kahn Playground, consisiting of tennis courts, ball fields, etc.

Then, the former military compound. Today, all buildings of the Presido Army Base are gone and George Lucas has bought the property and built more of his Skywalker Movie Studio sets on the old site.

However, the public Presidio sites remain the same.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:21 pm

I am glad there is more things going on now at the Presidio..Lucas and the Walt Disney Family Museum being there…it is a beautiful area…I recomend anyone who has not been there to come out and visit it. It’s pretty spectacular with views of the Golden Gate Bridge, the hills and the scenery of the Bay, a really, really nice place that one should visit. The homes in Presidio Heights are an attraction themselves..although..I think the neighborhood likes it’s quiet nature. They only allowed limited filming for Zodiac (movie) and they had to reconstruct that corner for the film, but i really love the area..wish I could move back.

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:33 pm

Hey Grag you keep advertising for the city like that, they’d be stupid not to hire you as an Ambassador for SF. But what Greg says here is absolutely true. You won’t find a more beautiful city anywhere in this world. And the Presidio area to me is as beautiful as it gets. If you haven’t ever been to SF put it on your list and bring your camera, and if you come in the summer, bring your jacket.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:02 pm

Thanks BA60s I could use the work…I have tons of stories I could tell about living there..but I’ll spare everyone…lol
Driving in the city is a different story, haha..Sandy Betts can attest to this…lol
Where I lived at Green and Laguna, I used to wait for the bus at Union Street in the morning to take me downtown..
I used to see Melvin Beli being driven to his office in his Rolls Royce…I got to visit the Belli office on Hotaling place..(the Montgomery office was being retrofitted for earthquake safety) and got to wait in his front office which looked much like a monument to himself..very cluttered.. with newsclippings on the wall of his exploits including some Zodiac references…weirdly..it kind of felt like I was in the Addams Family home…it gave off that kind of aura…

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:37 pm

In my early 20s I managed an auto parts store on Mission near Geneva, and commuted from Petaluma. I used to buy a 6-pack for the crawl home over Ocean to 19th and up 101 through Marin, with a doob on top. I know, bad news, but I never ran into anything.

trainmaster, Subject: PRESIDO Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:39 am

I might add to this that the Lucas Skywalker Ranch, built on the site of the former Presidio, is/was working on the 3-D version of "Titanic." I am not sure if Lucas had his Studios expanded to the Presidio in 1997 – I doubt it, as I saw the Presidio buildings in 1995 still standing – place was like a ghost town.

The public areas of Presidio are, of course, open to the public and actually a part of the U.S. Parks and Recreation, Department of the Interior. Those areas included the part where it is reported Zodiac fled (though I doubt it).
Julias Kahn playgound is part of it. Next to the Presdio public areas is Baker Beach, again Federal property because it consists of a family section and also a nude sunbathing section. (State of California prohibits nude sunbathing, but Federal law allows it – both Muir and Baker Beach are part of the Department of Interior’s Parks and Recreation areas).

bayarea60s, Subject: Train & Bentley Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:34 am

Train….
There’s nude sunbathing on Baker Beach? I wasn’t aware of that, of course it is SF, so not that surprising….

Bentley you probably had company on your commute, that kept everyone from crashing into each other….That can be a fun ride on a Friday afternoon, in both directions

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:47 pm

The beach and the nude sunbathing has been there for at least 40 years.
The nudies are much further north near the Golden Gate Bridge, but cannot be seen from any commute roads. To get straight down to the nudie section requires a steep walk down at least 200 feet, or one can walk on sand in the family section for about a half-mile. There are plenty of them there on a warm day. It is "clothing optional." A lot of "tourists" come there to take in the sights – even fishing boats! (About 300 feet out in the water).

Park Rangers are always present, in case a "sunbather in the buff" wanders into the family section; in that case, they are redirected back to the nudie area.

The beach is all flat with a warning sign about 50 feet before one hits the nudie area. All the sign states is that one will encounter nude sunbathers.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Just had lunch with a friend who spent 4 months in the Stockade at the Presidio in 1960 for going AWOL. Says he loved it! Get this, he said they had to mow the Presidio grass, a whole group of prisoners under armed guard, with HAND mowers! Even funnier, he said they mowed side by side, in a circle. So the guy on the inside walked around the center in a 3 foot circle, and the poor guy on the outside had to mow whatever circumference that was. Weird. He said they also had to wash and wax the military buses often.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:16 pm

You mean, they didn’t give them the "drive around" powered mowers?

Just kidding – in those days, the push-pull hand mower was the standard for everyone – the wierd mowing pattern was probably part of the punishment.
If they were confined with the base, there was not that much grass to mow, but the public park part would keep anyone busy.

When we speak of Zodiac escaping into Presidio, one must remember the difference between the military complex and the public park area. If he did go there, it certainly was the latter.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:58 pm

Cool, a lawn mower thread! Power mowers were actually around after WWII but yeah, I did all my mowing in the ’60s with a hand mower, and it certainly makes sense on a chain gang. My friend down the street took his parent’s power mower, the old reel style that also drove the wheels, took the handles off and built a wood go kart onto the front of it. Wasn’t hard to get him to mow the lawn, or the neighbors’ lawns. Y’know, that might have been the first riding mower.

Anyway, to add something Z related, I asked my friend about the rather low stone wall that surrounds the Presidio. He said yes, it would have been easy to hop over, but fooling with the MP was not something one wanted to do.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:06 am

"I asked my friend about the rather low stone wall that surrounds the Presidio. He said yes, it would have been easy to hop over, but fooling with the MP was not something one wanted to do."

As a former NIS agent, I would say DEFINITELY NOT!!!

Even though there are ball fields and a tennis court, the old excuse, "my ball went over the fence" won’t work. Anyone who goes into a restricted area is subject to intense interrogation, and even in the 1980’s such an intrusion might be regarded as a terrorist attempt. I might add in the 60’s and 70’s, there was always alert for espionage and anyone without a badge was suspect. I also might add any intruder would be subject to be placed under intense observation by government authorities.

Rule of thumb – stay away from military installations, any of them, unless you have proper military or government-issued identifications.

Another reason Z would NOT have gone through the military complex.

Another factor: the blood on him or his clothing would certainly get the attention of MP’s and civilian patrol there.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:54 am

Just an off the wall theory, but what if Z WAS an MP with ID, security gate access, etc?

The blood might be an issue but there’s every chance he could have ditched or concealed a bloody jacket, etc. Perhaps he had an extra layer of clothing on? After all, we know he covered himself in a hood, bib, etc at Lake B for a messy, up close job…

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:15 am

LOVE your opening statement, just an "off the wall theory" when Bentley was talking about "hopping" over the wall.

I agree with you 100% – it is an "off the wall theory." There is more risk in getting caught – military personnel know the consequences of the UCMJ.
The case would become a military one with the death penalty on the table, regardless of what the state would do.

Z would have to go through a security gate, in which military guards would possibly see the blood-stained shirt, or recognize the drawing later. There would be a paper trail of who had liberty that night, not to mention a set of fingerprints.

I will correct one part – usually most personnel have liberty if either (1) they don’t have watch or duty or (2) they have no restrictions. The people who had duty is where the records would be kept-not liberty.

Any military suspect could be traced to all the dates involved to see if
he was on duty or watch. Too much at stake for a military person to be a serial killer – I am not saying it has never happened (to be best of my knowledge it hasn’t) but very, very unlikely. There have been some murders
commited by military personnel, but not serial killers.

bayarea60s, Subject: Presidio Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:56 am

I’m sure SFPD checked with Presidio Gate MP’s for anyone who entered the area that night.

bentley, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:41 am

For those who don’t know or remember, Richard Bunch was shot and killed on the Presidio exactly one year to the day prior to the Stine killing. Connection? Who knows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidio_mutiny

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 am

LOVE your opening statement, just an "off the wall theory" when Bentley was talking about "hopping" over the wall.

I agree with you 100% – it is an "off the wall theory." There is more risk in getting caught – military personnel know the consequences of the UCMJ.
The case would become a military one with the death penalty on the table, regardless of what the state would do.

Z would have to go through a security gate, in which military guards would possibly see the blood-stained shirt, or recognize the drawing later. There would be a paper trail of who had liberty that night, not to mention a set of fingerprints.

I will correct one part – usually most personnel have liberty if either (1) they don’t have watch or duty or (2) they have no restrictions. The people who had duty is where the records would be kept-not liberty.

Any military suspect could be traced to all the dates involved to see if
he was on duty or watch. Too much at stake for a military person to be a serial killer – I am not saying it has never happened (to be best of my knowledge it hasn’t) but very, very unlikely. There have been some murders
commited by military personnel, but not serial killers.

Trainmaster,

Thats not entirely true. Not USA but still, a Colonel in a Major Command position who was a serial killer!!! Not in 1968 before DNA but modern day as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Williams

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:03 am

Interesting – what to expect when in the Canadian military.

I stated to the best of my knowledge, not no one in the military was ever convicted – it does not happen that often, but as the article shows, anyone can be a serial killer or commit other serious crimes.

I would HOPE SFPD checked with the guards at the gate. In the Navy, Marines hold that duty, at least at most bases.

bayarea60s, Subject: Bona Fides Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:26 am

Russell Williams….Talk about a strange dude….Least likely guy to suspect of being a Serial Killer

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:46 pm

Come on, man. Look at that face. That boy ain’t right.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:52 pm

There’s a programme about him where you get to see him being questioned by the detective right up to him admitting his guilt. It’s like he’s trying to avoid the embitterment of a DUI rather than murder. Creepy.

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzh3adTWZOg

part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah51vPzcVEM

part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mQA2yQFZ8o

bayarea60s, Subject: Nach Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:13 am

He fooled all the Canadian Military, and beyond, all the way to the top.

greg, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:42 am

He fooled all the Canadian Military, and beyond, all the way to the top.

He fooled them all the way to the top..as he was on his way to the bottom ! lol

bayarea60s, Subject: Greg Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:16 am

So True….

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:03 pm

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum … ams-63889/

What do you think – is he divorced now?

QT

bayarea60s, Subject: Creepy is right Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Traveller you’re right there….The guys story is so bizarre, so odd for a person in that position. There’s a whole lot I need to learn about crazy. He handled all the girl’s clothing, panties and such in a very meticulous manner. then dresses up in them and takes his own pics, then downloads into files that he hides. but keeps it all very orderly, like a commander of the military would. Weird…..

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Stine crime scene witnesses Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:46 pm

He fooled all the Canadian Military, and beyond, all the way to the top.

He fooled them all the way to the top..as he was on his way to the bottom ! lol

That is something similiar with Richard Nixon – he fooled everyone and lied until his own tapes caused him to leave office.

Nixon did not kill anyone, but assassanation was talked about – especially for Jack Anderson and John Dean.

Just goes to show that anyone, regardless of importance, can kill or commit
serious crimes, though Nixon said he "was no crook."