Re: The Witnesses
by Zamantha » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:51 pm
FYI:
A lot of the posts in the old history of this thread were made by James Dean. JDean was with the Vallejo Police Dept. And he was assigned the Zodiac Cold Case in the 70’s. I’ve spoke to him via emails & some meetings. He is very knowable on the Z case. Mike R. has also spoke to him numerous times.
Most the posts with no posters name are by JDean whom interviewed the children at the Stine Scene & so much more research. I wanted to make everyone aware, regarding these informative posts by JDean. We were lucky to get him to come to our former site & share some of his information with us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I’m sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam’s/Quote
, Subject: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:51 pm
Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:08 pm
Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
Heres the link:
http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac2.pdf
Even if they showed a DOB or age, that may be helpful
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:38 am
What I think is this, there are rumours that a man was placed in the back of a car and was observed by the witnesses. Ages we can now see to be ,13, 14 and eight years old. I have also read that when the police arrived the kids were on the street trying to tell the police what they saw and were ushered back into the house.
In his first letter he describes LHR as the two teenagers. Darlene and Mike are described as the boy and girl. Kathleen Johns was described as woeman. Other than that he talks of killing couples. In the Stine letter which he must have written the following day, he talks of killing the kiddies, that school children make nice targets. Well the Stine witnesses were school children and eight years old is def a kiddie.
We have I think a few of scenarios. He phoned up the SFPD or knew someone within the police department and got the information (they did not know he was the Zodiac at this point) or he doubled back and saw the witnesses himself, therby hanging around the crime scene or he was the guy in the back of the car being seen by the witnesses and poss seeing them himself if that story is true.
I find it too much of a coincedence that immediately after this killing he is describing his witnesses in a letter. Also certain people can be ruled out as they were never suspects at this time and their photograph would not be shown.
If he was ruled out because of the fingerprints then that’s not saying much as none of the crime scene fingerprints match each other and I do believe he was faking prints, and surely even if he had no criminal record if the eight year old id’d him then they would have printed him.
I think he potentially saw the witnesses or was told himself by the police/contacts within the police who the witnesses were and in the Stine letter he basically threatens them.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:47 am
Yeah Solar, even though it’s speculative, I’ve also thought for while that the "kiddies" reference might well have been a thinly veiled threat. If not then it’s another crazy Z coincidence.
Must have been scary to be a child eye-witness and then hear that the Z said he’d target kids next... and that he knows where you live!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:20 pm
I agree Rufus, speculating might just get a few different scenarios going. If he did backtrack then I believe he either had a car/van in the area, he was renting or he lived and I would have to say in the immediate vicinity.
He would be covered in blood, just how much is anyones guess. He would need to dump his gun/Stines shirt,wallet etc and change his clothes, all of them. If he only had a car that might be a tad difficult. Also to wash off the blood access to water so a house/apartment would be better. Change and then go to watch the crime scene unfold.
In order to do that and get back in time to poss see the kids still outside or glimpse the cops going into their house I reckon he couldn’t be away from the scene longer than ten to fifteen minutes. I think we’re looking at def within the Presidio heights area, mostly the first few streets. Running would probably attract attention. There were apparently quite a few people starting to gather around and watch (as happens) so he would just blend in as one of the curious. The cops wouldn’t be expecting him to show up and watch. I wonder if there are any photos of the crowd, they would be most interesting.
Obviously this would bring into play the notorious Mr X, didn’t he live in Pacific heights, and did he actually own a dog/actually have a dog with him. Marshall lived nearby also. I read a bit on Z.Com from Ed Neil about Hunter poss still owning a house on Jackson but renting it out.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:59 pm
….. He would be covered in blood, just how much is anyones guess. ……
Well, based on the crime scene photos on the Fincher DVD disc2 doc, I’m still of the belief that Z wouldn’t necessarily be covered with blood (when you freeze-frame it, it looks to me that Stine bled mostly into the passenger side floor-well, there is very little blood evident on the seat)… so Z could have returned quickly to blend in with the crowd and gain crime-scene/witness info.
, Subject: The kids Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:25 pm
Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
I have talked to the Robbins kids extensively and they are a remarkable couple of kids. …Some background… This is an upperclass neighborhood (Duh!) The Robbins father was (maybe still is) a renowned surgeon. At the time of the murder, the senior Robbins was about a block away attending a formal dinner at the Belgian Embassy. You can begin to get the status and education of the family. The kids (Lindsey and Rebecca were 16 and 13 Respectively) were having friends over for TV, Popcorn, games, etc. There was no alcohol as some have suggested.
As both Robbons kids were the oldest, their statements were the given the most weight. Also they were the least traumatized by the event. One of the kids (not sure which) noticed a cab parked outside (in that now famous spot) with the interior lights on. (I have to insert my personal experiences here.. In the late 60’s the American cars were large and roomy. I drove an identical police car many years ago and can tell you the interior dome light was very bright. It was even brighter when you removed the opaque plastic lens that covered the bulb. We (police) did it so we could more easily read/write reports in the car, and I noted that cabs also removed these lens covers for the same reasons: to be able to read/write reports, trip tickets, make change for passengers, etc.
So when Lindsey told me that the light inside the car was like a spotlight, it was so bright… I knew what he meant (even though he didn’t).
To continue…the first kid at the window sain the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he’s stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place. (No shots were heard by anyone)
We know now that Z was cutting off a large piece of Stein’s shirt with the knife.
At this time, lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the Police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Z pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North.
Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and beleiving the susp to be armed with only a knife) ran out his door to see where Z was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Z continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Palesetti, approached Lyndsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Palesetti asking questions, Lyndsey was trying to explain that the susp was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Palesetti got the point, they both looked and the Z was gone.
The assumption was Z continued North into Presidio Park and the resultant search extensively covered this area.
Palesetti followed a different path East on Jackson in the event Z had turned East. What happened next is for another story.
But, I want to tell you how the sketches came about. Within 48 hrs of the murder, Tochi had recruited a young uniformed cop named Juan Morales, who was said to be a good artist. He asked him to talk to the kids and see if he could work-up a composite of the susp. Morales sat down with all the kids and slowly developed the first sketch. Most of his input he took from the two oldest (L&R). Within a day or so, someone (not sure who) decided it was a bad idea to have multiple people contribute to a composite. So Morales sat down with the kids again and after a time, determined that Rebecca was the most artistically inclined, and the most observant of facial features. So, he did the final sketch from only Rebecca. When done, all the kids looked at it individually and agreed that was VERY close to the man they saw on that night.
I hope that helps somewhat in clearing up lots of speculation and rumor about the "eyewitnesses." This is the best info taken directly from the kids themselves, albiet, some 40 years later.
Both kids (L&R) are remarkable people. Rebecca is a fashon designer in S.F. (artistic eye) and Lyndsey is a successful building Contractor in Marin County.
They claim they don’t often think about that night, but will never forget it.
P.S. Morales quit SFPD a few years later. From my best info, He went through a nasty divorce and moved to Mexico to get away from Alimony & child support. he is believed to still be in Mexico.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:43 pm
Thanks for posting the full story, jdean. It confirms several things I had heard about that night, which I had been previously unable to verify. Very enlightening stuff.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:55 pm
Thanks for posting the full story, jdean. It confirms several things I had heard about that night, which I had been previously unable to verify. Very enlightening stuff.
Thanks JDean for this post. I hope there will be more from you. As most of us here on this site, really want to hear and know the truth. (So, glad we found you, 
I know there are other areas you will also be able to help us in. Looking forward to your posts.
Zincerely, your newest Z Pal, Zam*
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:06 pm
Great information. This clears up a number of things people have speculated about for decades. Thanks!
, Subject: Stein crime scene Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:45 pm
What I think is this, there are rumours that a man was placed in the back of a car and was observed by the witnesses. Ages we can now see to be ,13, 14 and eight years old. I have also read that when the police arrived the kids were on the street trying to tell the police what they saw and were ushered back into the house.
I have heard that story about the susp in the police car several times. When I asked the Robbins kids about that neither had been asked to ID anyone in a police car, nor were they taken from the house that night. As Solar Pons stated, SFPD had their hands full keeping the kids in the house. The Robbins father heard the sirens from his dinner about a block away and ran to the house to see if there was a problem there, only to find this horrific crime scene right across the street from his house, and his kids involved. He took charge of the kids and everything calmed down for the evening.
The fact that this rumor persists about the susp in a police car, suggests it may have happened, but not with the kids involvement.
I have confirmed from palesetti that he did indeed stop and ID Mr.X that night, two blocks from the killing. He said he did not consider him a viable susp for 4 reasons. It is still not clear if Mr. .X was placed in a police car or not that night.
1 Location: (PH resident out walking…not a likely robbery susp.—Still looking at robber, not Z case)
2 Appearance: Susp wouldn’t have had time to change bloody clothes before the contact. —Here we have a very gray area about time lines. I can expound on this later. He was stopped less than two blocks from his home.
3 Circumstances: Susp was walking his dog.
4. Motive: Again, being a wealthy resident of PH this guy would not be robbing some cabbie, plus you don’t mess around with PH residents, they have friends in high places… His words, not mine.
For what it is worth, Mr. X denies ever being stopped by SFPD that night.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:23 pm
Well, those are the most interesting posts to happen around here in awhile
Welcome JDean,
Very interesting on the interior light and the missing lens. One, it adds a lot of credibility to what the kids saw going on inside the cab, as we have long wondered how they could see things clearly. And two, if the light was on and doors closed then someone (presumably Stine) had time to twist the light switch on the far left of the dash, and it should have remained on until the police arrived unless Z turned it off and wiped the print after he went to the driver’s side and opened the door. I don’t recall reading that the interior light was on when the Pelissetti arrived.
Or perhaps the front passenger door was open while Z took the shirt piece?
BTW Mr. X was on the local news a few months back promoting the auto show at the Moscone Center and he did look terrific, sounded great as well.
mike_r, Subject: HI Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:47 pm
Hi-
This is the same man who said that his memory was not so good anymore at Jim’s and my 2006 meeting with him, in which he could not recall being stopped by Pelissetti or getting small arms training in the military. Both of which did, in fact, occur according to the research Jim and I have done since 2006.
From interviews he has done since 2006, it is clear that his memory is just fine and he is in good health. We should all look so good if we live to his age! My father has early memory loss and Jim happened to have had to care for two people in his family who had Alzheimer’s. So in 2006, Jim knew what it was like to be in the presence of someone with that problem and, in his opinion (which he can now voice personally here!), X was being deceptive, not failing to recall facts. X recently wrote a blog on the Net, for goodness sakes. Alzheimer’s? I seriously doubt it.
Whatever his motive, his answers were not due to his memory being bad that day. And you’d think that a law abiding citizen would recall being stopped by the police and spoken to on the most famous night in the history of an otherwise boring neighborhood where the worst thing that usually happens in that Jacqueline Suzanne’s domestic help takes up too many parking spaces on the street! Pelissetti sure remembers spekaing to X and wrote out his name (spelled correctly) in a letter to Jim in 2008!
But don’t tell Dr. Larry that Mr. X’s memory is fine. He seems to think X can’t recall what he had to eat this morning. LOL!
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Posts Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:21 pm
Thank You so much for posting this info. Pellessetti always said he got there quickly, that was very quick. I wonder if Stine’s front doors may have been locked and thus Z had to jump over the seat to get access to Stine? I’ll never understand why Z would sit with Stine’s head in his lap. You would think Z would enter from the driver’s side push Stine towards the passenger side and then cut his shirt without getting so personally involved, esp. with Stine’s head area. Look forward to hearing more from you….
, Subject: Reply to Bay Area60’s Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:34 pm
You’re absolutely right. I would not have taken Steins bloody head on my lap simply to cut of his shirt tail! It’s tough trying to reconstruct the crime with only the details of Z’s actions AFTER the shooting, and tougher to get inside his head for his unusual actions. We can only guess as to the, "WHY", but at least we have some detail as to the "HOW…"
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:43 pm
Thought I posted this earlier, but it’s gone. ??
SP–regarding Zodiac knowing about the kids. Probably just read about them here:
SF Chronicle 10/12/69 –from another post from Bentley.
Never thought of his later remarks as a threat to them, but it makes perfect sense!
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:56 pm
I’ll never understand why Z would sit with Stine’s head in his lap. You would think Z would enter from the driver’s side push Stine towards the passenger side and then cut his shirt without getting so personally involved, esp. with Stine’s head area.
I hate to say it, but Stine would have been dead weight. Moving him from where he was sitting wouldn’t have been a simple task. Would make sense imo to hop in the passenger side and do what he needed to do and get out.
The steering wheel would have been in the way big-time.
bayarea60s, Subject: By Tahoe Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:06 pm
Tahoe…
I always figured that Z got out of cab opened driver’s door and would just push Stine towards passenger side. You’re right in that he obviously figured out for himself what his best approach would be. He sure wanted some of that shirt, badly. Could have just taken Stine’s passenger log book for evidence and sent a page at a time. Bet Z wishes he had my 41 years of hindsight.
, Subject: Stine’s body Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Tahoe…
I always figured that Z got out of cab opened driver’s door and would just push Stine towards passenger side. You’re right in that he obviously figured out for himself what his best approach would be. He sure wanted some of that shirt, badly. Could have just taken Stine’s passenger log book for evidence and sent a page at a time. Bet Z wishes he had my 41 years of hindsight.
In a sort of related area, the question will eventually arise as to why was Z proping Stine up, anyway?
Just a guess, but we feel that Z was "setting a stage" in that, a cab with driver behind the wheel would not draw much attention as opposed to an empty cab, or worse, a limp body spotted in said cab.
So, unless there is a really sicker twist to Z, I’m thinking he was setting the scene to be as "normal" as possible, so as to ensure his stress-free walk from the scene without worry of nosey neighbors…Oops.!
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:29 pm
Interesting stuff for sure!
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:32 pm
JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine’s killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
, Subject: 8-yr old Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:49 pm
JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine’s killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
Hi Tracers. My experience is only what I gleaned from the Robbins kids. They never mentioned any other kids that they are aware of, that were talked to seriously by LE.
The feds may have stepped in days later to scan for loose ends and talked to one of the other kids present, but I’m not aware of this.
Sorry.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:55 pm
Did the kids ever mention if they thought Z noticed them in the window? Maybe why he gave up the idea of leaving Stine in a sitting position? It has always amazed me with so many windows facing the street that no one else witnessed anything. Luck played a role in Z’s favor there.
Do you know if that dinner Mr. Robbins went to was a big neighborhood thing, or just happened to be invited to a small size dinner? It kind of sounded like a big deal, but maybe wasn’t at all.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:51 am
JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine’s killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
I just read the entire FBI file you refered to and as far as I can tell, it is a massive list of every dead-end lead that was developed in the few months after the stine killing, by both SFPD and the FBI, who seemed to be questioning their jurisdiction in the matter. I noted that each request for print comparison requested a palm print and each reply stated "no palm prints (PP’s) on file." During that time only finget tips were taken when a person was arrested, unless there were unusual circumstances requiring palms. this suggests SFPD had a palm print which could not be matched, or was subsequently declared unreliable. Recent info indicates there are no viable prints in the Z case.
If there was any credence to the 8-yr old, I’m sure Voigt would have jumped on it a long time ago..!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:04 am
Thanks for the replies JD, so we can rule the man in the back of the car shpeel as garbage probably. Were the Robbins kids shown pictures at all, the FBI memo is dated 6th Nov so we can take from that that the eight year old, presumbly one of the other kids at the party was shown a line up and actually picked someone out.
Also I presumed there was a few minutes to work with in the Z getting away the time scale lends itself to Pellesetti meeting Fouke and Zelms almost as soon as he got there, armed with the info that this was a white man. After informing them of this they don’t tell Pellesetti that they just saw one seconds earlier and left him to continue on around the block on his own.
If there was not enough time for anyone to get a good look at this guy it begs the question, who did the eight year old see? There would only be so many suspects at this time and someone was picked out. For the SFPD to mention it at all they must have lent some weight to it. He would be about fifty now I wonder if anyone has ever tried to find out what the other kids saw.
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:07 am
Recent info indicates there are no viable prints in the Z case.
What…?
, Subject: Z Local..? Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:54 am
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z’s description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z’s letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought…
, Subject: Re: prints Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:13 am
To: "Nachtsider"
I should qualify the "non viable" prints remark. First, the cab prints have never been shown to my knowledge, to be from anyone other than a cab customer, or other innocent print. The story of bloody prints I believe refers to bloody prints probably left by Z, on or about the drivers door, they may be bloody, but they do not have any ridge pattern for forensic use. I base this on information from a Forensic worker familiar with the case, and a pecular lack of SFPD trying to eliminate anyone based on prints, for at at least 15 years. I also met with DOJ about two years ago and they said they had no prints, but they did have DNA. They may have DNA, but I don’t believe it is viable. If you want a really technical discussion about DNA, I can refer you to a great source who would love to explain it in relation to this case.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
It has always amazed me with so many windows facing the street that no one else witnessed anything. Luck played a role in Z’s favor there.
I personally think Z was NOT from that area, and he showed this by choosing that location. He got really lucky that night. If he was from that area, he would have known how populated it was there, and about all the windows. In the Paul Stine section here, I have made a thread called ANOTHER CABBIE MURDER. This cabbie, killed a few years after STine, I think may well have been a Zodiac victim! This time, Zodiac did everything right.
*Called the cab company and requested a cab sent to an address
*Cabbie got there, and no such address existed, but Z was there to signal to him that he needed a ride (we know this because the cabbie radioed this in)
*The road was a dead end street, less chances of witnesses or traffic
*cabbie shot in back of head
*no sign of robbery, no real motive
*After the shooting, attacker took off in a car.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
jd,
I’ve started a new thread to discuss the prints and other evidence so as not to take this one off topic:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … e-t208.htm
Carry on, guys.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:04 am
JD, I was also going to ask that about the info he gave he even specified to the north etc, where the police motorbikes /fire trucks etc. If the police were crawling all over the scene, police dogs especially should have sniffed someone out, not to mention personnel from the Presidio, where was he viewing this from. If you were hiding in amongst the foliage and trying not to get caught you are not going to see much at all. A lot of the houses along Jackson are quite elevated probably also houses on Pacific, there are probably others with a better view. I don’t think we can rule out at all that he was staying with someone/renting/living nearby.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:09 pm
I believe there was another newspaper article that described the fire engines and dogs. I may be wrong..
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:32 pm
Great report jdean!!! Would like to see you get in touch with the Rayfield boy who saw Zodiac at Lake Berryessa. By the way if Zodiac was craddling the bloody dead body of Stine in the passenger seat doesnt this eliminate Mr. X if he was questioned that night or he would full of blood. This whole case would be solved if the police hadnt come as soon as the teenager was following zodiac down Cherry Street, he proably would have followed at a distance and been able to find out where he went or if he jumped into a car and gotten the license plates. Also Zodiac was very calm taking his time in the middle of San Francisco with a dead body. For those who say Zodiac stopped killing after Stine because he was afraid he was almost caught. I disagree Zodiac never showed in any of the murders that he was in a rush showing that he was a clever psychopath. Good worl Jdeanagain!!!!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:42 pm
Morf that may have been a zodiac killing as you say………….Solar if he did live there i doubt it would be someone else because dont you think that person when he heard of the zodiac murder the next day would have remembered that his friend came home about that time. Also wouldnt the sniffing dogs if he went into a building would have followed his scent to there but if he hopped into a car then the dogs would have come to a dead end in their search.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:51 am
I suppose it depends where they were using the dogs Salus, In his bomb letter he lists locations, like the dogs were to the West, motorbikes 150ft away going South to North West. If he got this info from the papers, would they have listed the locations of the dogs and the motorbikes. We can possibly try and work out where he could have been from those descriptions. But to be seeing 150 feet away and also watching for officers on the ground with the searchlights also active I reckon he would need a good vantage point. Begs the question where in the park was he supposed to be?
If he entered from Jackson or along Pacific or anywhere near Julius Khan (which being a kids play park would be hard to hide in) then with the locations he says he saw the dogs and vehicles from within the park, we can perhaps work out where he was. If not quite a few officers etc there that night reckon they had the park sewn up with the dogs and the spots and men on the ground so to have seen the exact locations of certain groups of searchers the only other place he could have been would have been a nearby house.
Staying over with someone is probably the least likely although it was Saturday night doesn’t mean two people had to be in the same house together at the same time, also were there any vacant houses in order to hide within the grounds or if he was someone that worked/ lived on the base, would he get the positions correct. He seems quite sure of himself in naming the locations.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:56 am
If he lingered (which I don’t think he did), Presidio employee/garrison member is my best bet.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:21 am
It’s a good possibility Nacht he could have worked/ been on the base. With my limited knowledge of maps/orientation = sod all I’m going to look over the Presidio area to try and hedge a bet where he could have been. The results shall no doubt be dynamic and absoloutely spot on :lol!:
bayarea60s, Subject: The Dogs Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 am
Solar…
Z doesn’t mention the dogs in his first letter, only until it was released in the press. I believe in a Nov. letter does he mention the dogs. I’ve always thought he was working at a residence in the area where he could hear the park noise but couldn’t really see what was happening on the ground.
If was in the park and breathing the dogs would have nailed him. We’re not talkin Central Park here.
Nin, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:10 am
..
If was in the park and breathing the dogs would have nailed him. We’re not talkin Central Park here.
If the search went on rather chaotically, say the dogs came in after LE officers were all over the park, it could have been very difficult for the dogs to find the perp.
I know dogs (especially trained ones) can smell fear/adrenalin and many other distinct odors caused by various emotions of a person. When we are in fear of something we sweat and dogs can smell that. Even if you are just a bit nervous, adrenalin pumps and the sniffer dog can detect that.
However, if the park was contaminated with a bunch of "excited" LE personnel all pumping adrenalin prior to the arrival of the dogs, the sniffers would have had a field day ..If the perp was say even disguised as a LE officer, heck, not even the chief sniffer of the sniffer dogs would have earned any credibility for possibly identifying a fellow policeman..Remember, they did not know they were hunting the Zodiac back then. They thought they were searching for a robber and cab killer, not a disguised high profile maniac.
-Nin
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:10 pm
Remember, they did not know they were hunting the Zodiac back then. They thought they were searching for a robber and cab killer, not a disguised high profile maniac.
I have been wondering about this for a long time…would the police really mobilize such a huge search for a cab robber ?
According to the police report; Several police officers/Lt.´s, two homicide inspectors, police motorbikes /fire trucks w/spotlights, seven dog units ect
They called the crime lab, coroner, Yellow Cab officials, "room 100" was notified (what is that?)
Officer Armond Pelissetti
Lt. Frank Peda
Homicide Inspector Dave Toschi
Homicide Inspector Bill Armstrong
Lt. Paul Kiel
Inspecror Kracke (Dog units)
"Other units were requested for an imidiate search of the area"
"Description was boadcast and several untits responded to intitute a search of the area"
Don Fouke
Eric Zelms
Others?
The military police headquarters of The Presidio was notified and participated in the search
Other CP and Richmand units
Deputy Schultz and Kindred
By the way the description of the suspect in the police report, dated Oct 12 6.29 AM was
"in his early fourties"! so the higher age was a fact already within the first 12 houres!
Police report page 1: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html
Police report page 2: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html
So was there somthing, from get go, that made LE suspect that it was a Zodiac murder???
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:21 pm
I have been wondering about this for a long time…would the police really mobilize such a huge search for a cab robber ? …………… So was there somthing, from get go, that made LE suspect that it was a Zodiac murder??? ….
The report was changed to homicide with officer Pelisetti’s arrival on the scene, so the search wasn’t for a ‘cab robber’.And the killing of a cabbie in a prestigious area would warrant substantial LE attention. Reports of the perpetrator absconding on foot into the Presidio no doubt made for a more dramatic search than usual.
bayarea60s, Subject: Nin and Foreigner Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:36 pm
They knew they were looking for a murderer. I wouldn’t think, mass or otherwise, would matter. They were told, and not based on anyone seeing Z, that perp went into Park. It was assumed that’s where he went, maybe he did, and kept on going. He didn’t stay in the park, this I’ve known since July 1970.
I was with my older brother who lived but blocks away from Stine scene and a good buddy of his from the service named Jimmy. Jimmy worked the K-9’s in the military, did his time in Nam, etc. We were walking through the park talking about Z. Jimmy knew of the case but was from Va, Tenn, somewhere back there, so he was interested. When we told him Z’s scenario of the events and how he hid in the park, and SFPD, along with Presidio had some 5-7 dogs in the park his reaction was, "No way, dude’s blowin smoke".
He explained the process in detail with the dogs. He said first there’s limited places to look within the park, that’s where they would have taken the dogs, everyone clears out of the dogs way. If they had a scent tracker (something from Z) the dogs would have walked right up to him, period. If they didn’t have that it would take the dogs a little while, but they’d find him out. Dog’s don’t miss. He then looked off towards the Bridge and felt the prevailing wind. Put his nose up in the air and said hell I could have probably smelled him out.
He said that there would be dogs there that would hit on blood, on gunpowder, all sorts of crime related stuff. He wanted to go over and find the kennels and speak with the dog handlers at the Presidio we just didn’t have the time. But he said if it were a monkey up in the top of one of these trees the dogs would have hit on it.
I’ve always wanted to find some of those handlers that were on the scene and get their input.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:41 pm
I’ve often thought that TF for an unknown killer they had an awful lot of presence that night. Another thing that would be on him would be the smell of blood. Given that he may not have been saturated with it if he got some on him at all and he had a large section of Stine’s shirt the dogs should have smelt the blood in the air. I know there were descriptions in the paper of the fire trucks etc but I found it strange that he gave locations.
Looked at Google maps today and I feel that if he was inside the park then he wouldn’t have a clue where anything was. I tell you though a great view of the entrance to the Presidio and the J>Khan playground and Jackson street is from Hunters old property 2255 Lyon Street http://img714.imageshack.us/i/snapshot2 … 73733.png/ to the left and behind about 2 or 3 houses is his property it sits perches right at the top of the hill. Great view from there, for someone that lived all around this area, even if he sat in a parked car from there. Get the bins out.
I seriously doubt he was in the park I really do think the dogs would have got him.
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm
I agree with that assessment. That’s basically what Jimmy was sayin back in ’70. No Way. And we didn’t discuss Z sitting in a car outside the park watching. I would think as he went through the park to the car he would be leaving that blood/gunpowder sent behind and again dogs would walk right up to car.
There were many things happening in the park that night, but Z only mentions motorcicles. You can hear and see motorcicles from a distance. You probably wouldn’t be able to see the dogs. He doesn’t mention the dogs until Nov. ’69 letter after that’s been publicized in the news. So he didn’t see any dogs that night, cause he wasn’t close enough to the park to see them. If he were there he would certainly have mentioned them, they would pose a much greater threat to him than the cops.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:04 pm
I’ve got a couple of Springers BA great sniffer dogs, I’ve stood many a night outside and they stare at something off in the distance with the nose going, you can’t budge them, great little hunters and they aren’t trained. Trained dogs would be right on him, thats why I feel if he hung around at all to see anything it would be at a distance, they were crawling all over the Presidio by all accounts and even had the dogs go around the nearby blocks as well.
, Subject: Re: the witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:48 pm
My earlier post: "I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z’s description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z’s letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought…"
I put this post out there because Mr. X has a commanding view of the entire search area from his second story picture window overlooking the park and the area of Maple and Jackson. It also means he was just a few hundred yards on foot, from the crime scene, where a change of clothes and a dog leash would be only a short time frame.. This is where the time-line gets interesting…
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm
Very True. My dog freaks me out sometimes at night. We live in a heavily wooded area, I’ll have her out on leash and she just stops has her nose in the air sniffin away and pointing her nose in a certain direction. I know she’s picking up on something.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:44 pm
The initial letter from Z on 10/13/69, doesn’t give any detail. He speaks of motorcicle races and cop cars that should have just parked and waited for him to come out of hiding. He speaks of no other knowledge of what went on.
He does in his Nov letter, but by then the local news media had told the whole story for him about their search efforts. He was just re-gurgitating what he, like all of us, had read & heard on the news. It was non-stop news on this guy, obviously.
He doesn’t speak of Foukes encounter either, not until Nov.
Drew, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:40 pm
Jdean, I’ve really enjoyed reading about your unique insights into the Zodiac case, especially regarding the Stine case — lots of valuable information. Do you recall if any of the young witnesses mentioned anything about Zodiac having an unusual gait or style of walking? I know Fouke mentioned this detail in his report, and a possible Z witness at Lake Berryessa made note of Z’s awkward gait (if the person spotted was actually Zodiac). Thanks again for your contributions to the forum.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:21 am
I ditto Drew’s sentiment here. There’s nothing like getting a Bay Area LE input on this case. I wish more of you would come on board. But please keep posting, your input is so valuable here…
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:33 am
My first walk-through the park with my brother back in ’69, I was amazed how many vantage points there are overlooking the park. Many times the rich folks go off on vacation and they have people watch their houses for them. Or he may have been doing work within a home for absent home owners and had access. Or he may have lived in the neighborhood, or had firends who did. So many possibilities, for me the least likely is what Z told us. I look at what he stated as more of his supporting his case that cops are too stupid and he’s just too smart for them. Well we know that cops in search of a perp in a given area are not stupid, and with 5-7 dogs to aid them, well I just don’t believe Z’s version there. From above, inside a house, that I can see. I’ve never liked the car sitting scenario either. you know the lookey loo’s had to be out in the neighborhood watching the cops activities. If Z was just sitting in a car someone may get suspicious of him and question what’s that guy doing? Why won’t he come out here like the rest of us. Just my thought….
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:54 am
I don’t think the search encompassed more than the nearest blocks and the presidio (where they thought he actually went) here is a better link to the picture of the view near Hunters old digs http://sf.blockshopper.com/property/097 … yon_street go to the googly view thing and pan around the house covered in netting is 2255 Lyon the entrance being on the other side on Lyon Street as you look downhill you can zoom in and see J.Khan playground/ Jackson and the areas of the park that he mentions. Click on the user pictures and you get the picture I first posted and can zoom in better. A great vantage point and also park/live/rent/stay over I doubt the police would send more than 1 guy at best up this far, and by all accounts once people started to come out and see what was happening change or peel off your clothes, watch mingle and then leave.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:11 am
Would Zodiac be able to see anything from the property that Fouke (eventually) said Zodiac walked up to?
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:28 am
Tahoe here is 3765 Jackson Hunters old house (lived around here a lot) it was roughly here I think the house next door that he was spied, they look like townhouses to me and I think the top floors would def overlook the areas viewed. On my other images I’ve pinpointed on maps some of Hunters digs. I’m not saying this was him with that just pointing them out. 
/ according to Ed Neil who researched Hunters homes, Sandy may know as well, there may be a possibillity he rented this, Ed would probably know.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:45 am
The initial letter from Z on 10/13/69, doesn’t give any detail. He speaks of motorcicle races and cop cars that should have just parked and waited for him to come out of hiding. He speaks of no other knowledge of what went on.
He does in his Nov letter, but by then the local news media had told the whole story for him about their search efforts. He was just re-gurgitating what he, like all of us, had read & heard on the news. It was non-stop news on this guy, obviously.
He doesn’t speak of Foukes encounter either, not until Nov.
Hi Bay Area,
you have a point there. I’d have to look over those dates to refresh my memory. Not sure exactly which details were revealed in the papers. It seemed to me, Z gave more detail than the papers submitted. Maybe he fabricated, Maybe he was there. Does anyone have the news account handy?
sandy betts, Subject: Stine crime scene Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:57 am
It is true that Ed N and I went to the Stine scene many times. How ever Ed wouldn’t agree with my idea that the killer stayed close by, and watched everything from possibly one of those flats that over looked the park.
I never felt that he left a car near the scene to escape.
I spoke to a woman who lived in that area at that time, She told me that there were rooms that could be rented for a very short time. on Pacific Ave and on Jackson.
I was challenged by a few, who didn’t check it out, but went on what they thought about my comment.
To prove what I had posted, I looked at the news paper to make sure it was true.
Sure enough there were adds for rooms to rent on those streets.
Remember that part of what the Z liked to do, was to watch the squad cars head for the crime scene. He did this when he phoned the police in Napa, and in Vallejo. Both times he was very close to the police dept or Sheriffs dept.
Ed even walked from the corner of Washington and Cherry towards Jackson to see just how many minutes he could do it in. It was thwarted because a dog started to go after him LOL.
Ed and I did a lot of investigating on Mr.X and Hunter.
We found that Hunter didn’t live at the address on the corner of Washington and Cherry, after all. Ed felt that Stine’s cab rolled from Maple to Cherry after Stine was shot. I again didn’t think that could be what took place. I believe that the Z had planned on stopping at Maple, but felt that it was a bit too close to his true destination. He needed to throw the police off of the intended direction, so he asked to go one more block. It is still my contention that the wallet was taken because the killer looked just like Paul Stine. That the killer needed to use Stines ID for some other nefarious things he wanted to do. It wasn’t for the money.
Something else that went through my head, was that the killer could have been in the other car a few days before, that Paul Stine hit with his cab. (I would like to read that report). That could have been when the killer saw just how much Stine looked like him, and was about the same age. It was then that he planned to kill the cab driver. I am just throwing some thoughts out there.
mike_r, Subject: WASH/MAPLE Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:05 am
Hi-
There is an old thread on the Net in which Ed lays out his excellent research on Hunter’s house. It apparently shows that the owner had died in 1968 and that if the mansion was not empty in October 1969, it was being occupied by her former gardener or chauffeur (name: Schiantarelli), etc.! There was a servant’s quarters attached to the home on Maple Street but by the edition of Polk’s from 1970 that Ed looked at the name attached to the main house was of the help.
I believe that Z may have known the previous owner for a reason that may become apparent if you read through the thread and see one of the items she left to her servants in her will. I believe that it is likely she obtained that item from X. If that is the case, I believe that he may have know that the house was empty after her death and chose that intersection initially (Wash/Maple) for that reason and for the poor sight lines to the corner from two of the three other homes (other than Augsbury’s old place, where Hunter would later live) there. And for its proximity to a "safe haven" in the neighborhood which is close to Wash/Maple then to Cherry.
To find the thread search on the address of Hunter’s home.
Mike
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
bayarea60s, Subject: Mike R., Sandy Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:12 am
Do either of you know who lived in the large house on the NW corner of Wash. & Maple? It has a heliport on the roof. I worked for a husband/wife tax team @ HR Block back around ’02. The wife’s name was Gail ?, married to a Dan Hicks. I know Gail’s mother re-married some attorney mogul from the city who lived in Pacific Heights. Belli was one of this guy’s buds, as were the rest of the rich and famous I guess.
In the 2 years I knew them I never asked Gail anything about Z. Why I don’t know. I know they still live in Healdsburg and so I could find them easily. Just wondered if anyone knew who owned that home?
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:51 am
Jdean327,
In light of the new information you’ve provided us, the Robbins kids getting a good look at Z working over Stine under the bright interior light of the cab and also as he walked down Cherry, and Pelissetti positively identifying Mr. X as the dog walker, I would like your take on Mr. X’s hair. Clearly the Robbins kids and Fouke describe a crew cut with no side burns, and the indications I’m aware of are that Mr. X had short to medium length hair and sideburns to the bottom of the ear. Did Pelissetti describe Mr. X’s hair to you? The prior explanations I have heard are that Mr. X had his hair combed back, slicked down or disguised in some way and the kids and Fouke simply got it wrong, however with your new info I’m having a little more trouble with that.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:21 am
Thanks for the info Sandy, when looking at some of the houses along Pacific and Jackson some of them are massive, Hunters Lyon St house has nine bedrooms, looking along the row there are even bigger looking houses, why people rule out that he could have been renting a room is beyond me. The attack happened on a Saturday night he could have been staying over the weekend and left on the Monday after posting his letter.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:45 pm
Thanks for the info Solar.
While I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility, I still doubt he hung around in a building close by. I think the dogs would have led officers somewhere. But, a good question is "how come they didn’t"? How come the dogs didn’t follow Zodiac’s trail? Were they too overwhelmed with Stine?
Still pisses me off Fouke supposedly saw the guy walk up to a house, but felt it wasn’t his job to tell anyone…it was up to the detectives to figure out??? WTF? 
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:20 pm
Mike R., is this the Ed Neil post you are referring to?
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/1093.html
The House on Zodiac Corner
Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Other Suspects: The House on Zodiac Corner
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc43b42.ipt.aol.com – 172.196.59.66) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 – 06:04 pm:
The house at the corner of Washington and Maple streets in Presidio Heights, San Francisco, has been the object of some investigation regarding the Z case because it was, at one time, the residence of Robert E. Hunter Jr, one of the worst Z suspects ever developed. Apparently, he was identified based on the following assumptions:
1) The killer of CJB, believed to be Z, is also assumed to have written the Desktop Poem, which was signed with what was assumed to be the author’s initials, "rh."
2) Z hailed Paul Stine’s cab at the intersection of Mason and Geary, and presumably requested Stine to drive him home, as evidenced by the location "Washington and Maple" logged on his trip sheet.
Therefore, anyone with the initials "RH" who lived at that intersection must be Z, according to the logic employed by Ed Rosaia and Dana Best. And, it just so happens that Robert E. Hunter Jr. lived at 3799 Washington, at that very intersection. That is how he became a suspect.
Now, I came across something yesterday while doing Z-search in the city that I had somehow missed before (I think because the volume of Polk’s in question was not possessed by the Civic Center library in Marin County where I had done my initial research; the Civic Center was Gattaca in the movie by the same name, btw). The little tidbit was that there was a certain Victor Schiantarelli who lived there after Mignon Augsbury died in June 1968 (she is listed in the 1969-70 Polk’s, but had in fact died by the time it was published), and before Hunter moved in sometime during 1970.
It must be noted that he’s listed there only in the 1971 Polk’s, which canvasses neighborhoods some 6 months before publication; in other words, in mid-1970, he was living there, and therefore appears in the 1971 Polk’s. However, the 1970 phone book, which was apparently published in September that year, lists Hunter as living there, which suggests that Schiantarelli moved out shortly after Polk’s did their research, and that Hunter moved in sometime after May 26th, 1970 (according to "House of Zodiac: Killer’s clues may have been telling the police exactly where he lived," The Napa Sentinel, 11-15-1991), obviously before the phone company did theirs. Harry Martin claimed that Hunter moved in to 3799 Washington as early as 10-4-1969, based on the claims of a neighbor, one Henry Solorzano ("Zodiac: the man who owned the house", The Napa Sentinel, 11-19-1991); very basic research showed that Solorzano was actually a janitor at a downtown hotel, so that little "factoid" has zero credibility. The reason for fabricating it was obviously to place Hunter one block away from the Stine murder at the time in question, even though he moved there 7 or so months later; this is another instance of guilt by association, something that Martin frequently engages in.
A little more research uncovered the following facts concerning Schiantarelli: it seems there were 5 of them who appeared in San Francisco in late 1957 (since they first appear in the 1958 Polk’s). There was Guillermo, a chauffer, who lived at 222 Maple Street, an H.M., who was a gardener at the same address, a student named Victor H. and his wife Bessie, and William R., also a student, who lived at 1378 19th Avenue.
Guillermo and H.M. disappeared after that, as did Victor and Bessie by 1960. However, Victor and an Erika A. Schiantarelli returned sometime in 1961; it’s apparent that he divorced and remarried, and he’s listed as being a "helper" (presumably an apprentice) at Schlage Lock Company. They lived at 3887 18th Street, while William lived at 3799 Washington as a gardener.
Interestingly enough, Victor is listed as living at 28 Shelbourne Avenue in Daly City in the 1968 phone book; he’s no longer listed as of 1970 (there is no 1969 phone book at the library, unfortunately). By 1968, Victor was a teamster, and William was living at 222 Maple, as did Guillermo and H.M. back in 1957-58. When I physically checked the address, it turned out that 222 Maple and 3799 Washington are in fact the same house; I would imagine that Mignon Augsbury sectioned off a part of the house that fronted Maple Street, so that her chauffer and gardener could live there at their own address.
Hunter, meanwhile, lived with his wife Sylvia at 2255 Lyon Street, literally a few blocks away, and moved away sometime in 1967 or 1968. Sandy’s research places them in Pennsylvania around that time (she wasn’t positive, but is checking her notes); James L. Newman moved into 2255 Lyon sometime in 1968. Hunter and his wife returned by 1970. None of the Schiantarellis were listed as being in San Francisco after 1971.
Now, what’s all this mean, and why does anyone even care? First of all, because Hunter is part of the case, it’s imperative to prove whether he was in California or not at the time of the Z murders (he doesn’t appear to have been), and secondly, it shows just how sloppy and inaccurate Rosaia’s, Best’s and Martin’s research was, and indicates that, basically, take it with a grain or two of salt.
Another thing is, how is it that a presumably middle-class teamster and gardener were able to afford to live in a house in a very wealthy part of town after the previous owner died? It’s impossible to say at the moment, so I won’t venture to guess, but it turns out that Hunter did not live at 3799 Washington Street when Paul Stine was murdered; that much is absolutely certain. I’m not certain how much more research into this is warranted, however, but it certainly is odd that the Schiantarellis lived there for as long as 2 years unknown to researchers, just before another man who would later become a Z suspect did.
By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com – 12.224.139.118) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 – 06:12 pm:
Kudos, Ed.
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (aca7dde2.ipt.aol.com – 172.167.221.226) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 – 12:43 am:
A little followup on Hunter and the Schiantarellis: Robert E. Hunter Jr. and his wife Sylvia first show up in the SF Polk’s directory in 1951, meaning they had moved there sometime in 1950. They lived at 2867 Green St, and he was a clerk at Crocker First National Bank. In 1952, they moved to 3765 Jackson Street, literally just around the corner from where Paul Stine would be shot by Z 17 years later; by that time, Hunter was an assistant cashier for Crocker Bank. It’s interesting to note that one of the places that Robert Graysmith claims Foukes and Zelms spotted Z in front of is 3769 Jackson, immediately next door to Hunter’s old digs.
In 1954, Hunter was assistant vice president of Crocker Bank, and in 1957, he was vice president. They moved a few blocks east to 2255 Lyon, where they remained until 1968 (although, rather curiously, he’s listed as living back at 3765 Jackson in the 1960 Polk’s, and does not even appear in the 1961 edition; since I have found the occasional error in Polk’s, I suspect they still owned that house and simply rented it out, and something got mixed up while preparing the volume). James Newman moved in sometime after the papers were signed on 10-16-1968.
As far as John and Mignon Augsbury go, he died on 2-14-1947 (just reverse those last two digits, and it’s the date the SLA letter was mailed), and there was a private service the next day. A short funeral notice appeared in the Chronicle on 2-18-1947, page 11; considering he was buried the day after he died, he was probably sick for quite a while, and his wife was prepared.
There were legal matters after Mignon died on 6-5-1968, which were sorted out in December 1969. In Book B390, p. 169, we find:
NOW, THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY ORDERED as follows:
(a) That there be and there is hereby distributed to
THE CALIFORNIA ACADEMY OF SCIENCES said decedent’s house and lot
in San Francisco, California, more particularly described as
follows: (then followed a lengthy physical description I didn’t bother to copy)
commonly known as 3799 Washington Street.
So, it appears that Harry Martin was actually correct on this count, except that the Academy of Sciences could not possibly have allowed Hunter to move into that house some 8 months early on 10-4-1969, because they did not even take possession of it until 2 months later on 12-4-1969, when the papers were filed!
Henry Solorzano, who Martin claimed was a neighbor of Hunter’s, actually lived with his wife Lily at 3653 16th Street. He was a janitor at the El Cortez Hotel at 550 Geary. Interestingly, only his wife is listed in the 1971 Polk’s as a janitor at the El Cortez, still living at the same address; it’s not indicated that she was widowed or anything, so it’s impossible to say at this time what happened to Henry.
Now, as far as the Schiantarellis go, in Book B390, p. 170 we find:
(b) That there be and there is hereby distributed to VICTOR
SCHIANTARELLI the sum of $30,000 and said decedent’s Jaguar automo-
bile.
Why he got the money and the car, I won’t even speculate, because it was William who lived with Mignon Augsbury for a few years, not Victor. And, there’s no mention of either William or Victor’s second wife, Erika. Those are perhaps some loose strings to be tied up at some other time, but, for the moment, things certainly look interesting. And, there is no question now that Robert E. Hunter Jr. cannot be connected with Z in any way, shape or form, because the "logic" that was used to discover him is faulty. As far as I can tell, based on the documentation, Victor Schiantarelli was living at 3799 Washington Street in October 1969, not Hunter. And the initials "vs" were not found at the end of the Desktop Poem.
By Tom Voigt (Tom_Voigt) (12-224-139-118.client.attbi.com – 12.224.139.118) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 – 02:37 am:
Ed, I usually sleep in pretty late. Which soap opera was this again? LOL!
Just kidding, buddy. Good job. Attention to detail is the key to successful Zodiac research. Some people have it, some people don’t…and you’ve obviously got it in spades.
By Kendra (Kendra) (pluto.cds1.net – 216.174.197.132) on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 – 08:32 pm:
One thing that I was curious about was to why Mrs. Augsbury willed her home to the Academy of Sciences. Turns out that at one time, there was a "John C. Augsbury room of Heads and Horns" at the Academy of Sciences. This bit of info has lead me to believe that at some point, Mr. (and/or Mrs.) Augsbury, having had lots of $$$, made a large donation to the Academy (hence, the naming of the room after him). This establishes a connection between the Academy and the Augsburys.
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc49012.ipt.aol.com – 172.196.144.18) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 – 06:02 pm:
Victor and Erika Schiantarell (they appear to have dropped the final "i"), ages 62 and 59 repsectively, both live in San Bruno, according to ussearch.com (but their phone number is unlisted). Since there were no others by that name listed as living in the US, and since their ages would be about right, I suspect they’re the same two I discovered regarding the house on Zodiac corner.
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc49012.ipt.aol.com – 172.196.144.18) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 – 06:04 pm:
BTW, Kendra: good piece of detective work! That explains why Mignon Augsbury willed her house to the Academy of Sciences (that, and that there doesn’t appear to have been any other Augsburys in SF at the time, children or otherwise).
By Sandy (Sandy) (12-233-119-238.client.attbi.com – 12.233.119.238) on Thursday, May 22, 2003 – 08:31 pm:
Great work!! Well for sure that lets Hunter out of the picture. Not that Augsburys had anything to do with the Z case but I wonder how did they come by so much money and not have any s.s. number ? Wouldn’t they have to pay taxes? The only other Augsbury was in L.A.
By Howard Davis (Howard) (host-66-81-183-88.rev.o1.com – 66.81.183.88) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 – 01:11 am:
BatEd…and Robin did it again!My mask is off to ya!Fine research.
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc457af.ipt.aol.com – 172.196.87.175) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 – 12:24 pm:
Howard: I’d like to talk to the Schiantarellis if possible; even though I’ve proven it through the documentation, I’d like to get it straight from the horse’s mouth that Hunter did not move into 3799 Washington on 10-4-1969. If Victor Schiantarelli says something like, "Yeah, we moved out of that house in the spring of 1970," that will once and for all prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Hunter is innocent of the Z crimes, because Harry Martin’s entire "case" against him hinges on that. I do kinda like overkill…
By Howard Davis (Howard) (64.30.222.112.lcinet.net – 64.30.222.109) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 – 08:33 pm:
Ed,
Have you tried US Search?Overkill is good…
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (pluto.cds1.net – 216.174.197.132) on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 – 10:28 pm:
Already did, Howard. They live in San Bruno, but I didn’t pay the $9.95 to get their address or phone number.
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc32cd4.ipt.aol.com – 172.195.44.212) on Friday, May 30, 2003 – 12:25 am:
In addition to mentioning Hunter in Zodiac (p. 299), though not by name, Graysmith gives a few more details in Zodiac Unmasked (p. 108), but, as usual, gets a few facts wrong:
1) RG claims that Hunter "lived a block away when Paul Stine was murdered," although I’ve proven conclusively that Victor Schiantarelli lived there at the time;
2) He claims that Hunter lived in southern California when CJB was murdered, and yet, there’s no question that he lived in San Francisco since 1950;
3) He makes the claim that Hunter owned property at LB, even though I proved that he did not own anything in Napa County until the late 1990’s.
Three incorrect statements in one paragraph. Amazing, even for Graysmith!
By Ed N. (Ed_N) (acc32cd4.ipt.aol.com – 172.195.44.212) on Friday, May 30, 2003 – 01:37 am:
I found Robert E. Hunter Sr. and wife Gwendolyn in Pasadena in the 1914-15 Thurston’s directory, living at 505 Orange Grove Avenue, and they remained there as late as 1955. Also in 1955, there appears a Robert E who lived in Santa Barbara but had an office at 234 East Colorado Boulevard, room 227, but whether he was Hunter Jr. or not, I don’t know at this time; whoever exactly he was, he was no longer listed after 1956.
The only other Robert E. Hunter listed in Pasadena was married to Barbara and lived in Rosemead. He worked at Burton’s Ice Cream Store, which became a Baskin Robbin’s in 1956. Clearly, he’s not the Hunter who came to live in Presidio Heights.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:55 pm
Jdean327,
In light of the new information you’ve provided us, the Robbins kids getting a good look at Z working over Stine under the bright interior light of the cab and also as he walked down Cherry, and Pelissetti positively identifying Mr. X as the dog walker, I would like your take on Mr. X’s hair. Clearly the Robbins kids and Fouke describe a crew cut with no side burns, and the indications I’m aware of are that Mr. X had short to medium length hair and sideburns to the bottom of the ear. Did Pelissetti describe Mr. X’s hair to you? The prior explanations I have heard are that Mr. X had his hair combed back, slicked down or disguised in some way and the kids and Fouke simply got it wrong, however with your new info I’m having a little more trouble with that.
Hi Bentley,
My only insight into his hair, (and appearance in general) Contemporaneous to that period, is a photo of Mr. X taken showing a very similar hairline. In the photo the hair is thick and combed straight back. It appears like the sketch, which is somewhat vague as to the height of the hair… Is it a short crew cut, or just thick hair combed back? I can’t tell from the sketch. And that’s one question I never asked the Robbons kids about. I know the two look pretty much alike. (He still has a very thick head of hair).But so do many other POI’s
bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe27 Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:30 pm
Yeah that attitude of let the detectives figure it out apparently was shared by more than just Foukes. But I hear what you’re sayin. When my uncle was out here from NYPD, 30+ year detective, I asked him if he ran into that same attitude. He told me flat out no, cops know better than that. He said someone might pull that once, if they’re real stupid, but they’ll never do it a second time. He about came out of our couch when he watched the DVD and they came to that portion. I didn’t think he’d like that.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:26 pm
Jdean327,
In light of the new information you’ve provided us, the Robbins kids getting a good look at Z working over Stine under the bright interior light of the cab and also as he walked down Cherry, and Pelissetti positively identifying Mr. X as the dog walker, I would like your take on Mr. X’s hair. Clearly the Robbins kids and Fouke describe a crew cut with no side burns, and the indications I’m aware of are that Mr. X had short to medium length hair and sideburns to the bottom of the ear. Did Pelissetti describe Mr. X’s hair to you? The prior explanations I have heard are that Mr. X had his hair combed back, slicked down or disguised in some way and the kids and Fouke simply got it wrong, however with your new info I’m having a little more trouble with that.
Hi Bentley,
My only insight into his hair, (and appearance in general) Contemporaneous to that period, is a photo of Mr. X taken showing a very similar hairline. In the photo the hair is thick and combed straight back. It appears like the sketch, which is somewhat vague as to the height of the hair… Is it a short crew cut, or just thick hair combed back? I can’t tell from the sketch. And that’s one question I never asked the Robbons kids about. I know the two look pretty much alike. (He still has a very thick head of hair).But so do many other POI’s
Hi Jdean,
Having been banging around these forums for awhile now I can safely say the composite is always a subject of great debate. Doesn’t help any that the North Bay composite about the exact opposite of the SF. Again now knowing the kids saw him in the cab with the interior light on, that they were older than I previously thought, had at least some basic artistic ability and even watched him from the back as he made his way down Cherry has bolstered my faith in the SF composite, for his appearance on that night anyway. The certainty of a crewcut would be a great question to ask the Robbins kid if the opportunity again presents itself. They state "crewcut" specifically in their statement to Pelissetti, as does Fouke’s scratch a month later. Seems to me a crewcut is a great indication of non-disguise (on that night), as a ball cap or wig would be the usual method of hair disguise, with the ability to revert back to another look in a hearbeat versus having to wait for hair to grow back out.
Just out of curiosity, if you’d care to share any of the mistaken NMA broadcast details I’m sure we’d all love to hear it.
sandy betts, Subject: Hair of zodiac Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:56 pm
The hair is so different each time this guy has been seen, makes me wonder if he was using wigs ?
1968, I see who I believe was the Z with very curly brown hair. Lyndon’s suspect was seen with the same brown very curly hair, and making the same scary face at both he and I ( At different times).
Then we have Mike M. who said that the shooter had his brown hair in a pompadour in July 69.
Lake B. Sept 27th 69, Bryan Hartnell see’s dark brown curly wet hair through the eye holes of the hood.
Now we have the PH shooting witness’s not much more than two weeks later, seeing the killer with blond hair in a crew cut ? Yet the SFPD bulletin has him with short brown hair, possibly with a reddish tint, 5ft 8in ,heavy build, 35 -45 yrs old.
I can see a dome light and street, lights, making the hair look lighter than it really was. But to take very curly hair, like kinky curly hair , and then get it so straight that it can be combed into a crew cut ? Not that easy ! We either have two killers or one that had many wigs.
bayarea60s, Subject: Sandy… Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:24 am
You know I’ve looked through Brian’s statements and while I see he says killer had brown hair, I’ve never seen where he said it was curly. But wigs? Sure I could see Z wearing wigs. Do they have flat top type wigs? They probably do huh!
The only problem I’ve ever had with more than one involved in the Z crimes is the old addage if you have a secret, and more than one person knows about it, it’s no longer a secret.
mike_r, Subject: LINK Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:36 am
Hi-
That would be the post.
Mike
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:43 am
Jdean327,
Just out of curiosity, if you’d care to share any of the mistaken NMA broadcast details I’m sure we’d all love to hear it.
That’s all it is…Dispatch put out a mistaken description of a black man, instead of a white man.
If you were to put a nefarious edge to it, I’d be hard pressed to do so. Third-hand info has it that there was a cab robber (black) active in the city and dispatch made an assumption it was him. Don’t know if it’s true, but it is simple, and it makes sense.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:48 am
That poor dispatcher is forever going to be known as the guy who blew the Zodiac case.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:13 am
That poor dispatcher is forever going to be known as the guy who blew the Zodiac case.
I think poor Fouke has that Albatross around his neck…
bayarea60s, Subject: Dispatcher error? Yes, but…. Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:23 am
We all know of the famed dispatcher or kid error in speaking, but here’s one we haven’t pondered on too much.
Pellessetti roles up on scene, kids apparently still see Z on Cherry, he hasn’t reached Jackson yet. Pellessetti escorts kids back to their house, goes over to cab, see’s a White Cabbie and is pretty sure he’s dead by the amount of blood he sees inside of cab.
Why doesn’t he call it in? Or while he’s leaving to chase after Z, have Peda call it in? We know Dispatch made one error (maybe), but no one ever accused them of making 2, and the 2nd is far greater than the first. Changes a robber into a murderer from black to white. Cops in pursuit I’m sure would take that as valuable and necessary info, but it doesn’t happen.
So Pellessetti heads off down Cherry, looking for a white murderer, gets to Jackson, heads east to Maple, runs into an old? guy walking a dog, speaks with him, goes back up Jackson heading west, again on South side of street that he’s already cleared, why wouldn’t he cross to north side of Jackson and go back that way to totally clear Jackson? He doesn’t. Probably a good thng for him that he didn’t.
He gets to Cherry and Jackson and here comes Foukes and Zelm’s. They’ve just seen a white guy who fits description, but ignore him cause he’s white, and they’re still looking for a robber, not a murderer.
At least 6-7 minutes had to pass from the time Pellessetti knows, white cabbie dead, and yet no call into dispatch. And to date, no one has questioned him on this? I’m sure Foukes has thought of it, he and Zelms were kind of hung out to dry. This sort of supports Foukes, cause I think if they had stopped and spoke with Z, he would have opened fire on them, catching them unprepared. Just imagine if they had stopped and actually gotten out of car, for sure there would have been trouble.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:12 pm
I never blamed Fouke or Zelms for what they did. Perfectly normal.
It’s what wasn’t done after (later that night and the days & weeks to follow) that bugs me.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:06 pm
I never blamed Fouke or Zelms for what they did. Perfectly normal.
It’s what wasn’t done after (later that night and the days & weeks to follow) that bugs me.
Oh, I’m not blaming Fouke, either. But he took so much heat for being, "the cop who let Z get away" it has haunted him to this day. He knows he didn’t do anything wrong, but he has been badly ridiculed for his role. Probably there is so much frustration by the LE community, that he is an easy target for them.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:18 pm
So Pellessetti heads off down Cherry, looking for a white murderer, gets to Jackson, heads east to Maple, runs into an old? guy walking a dog, speaks with him, goes back up Jackson heading west, again on South side of street that he’s already cleared, why wouldn’t he cross to north side of Jackson and go back that way to totally clear Jackson? He doesn’t. Probably a good thng for him that he didn’t.
He gets to Cherry and Jackson and here comes Foukes and Zelm’s. They’ve just seen a white guy who fits description, but ignore him cause he’s white, and they’re still looking for a robber, not a murderer.
Are we sure that’s the sequence? It’s what I too thought but last time I brought it up someone said no, Pelissetti didn’t talk to the dog walker until after he spoke to Fouke.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:15 pm
So Pellessetti heads off down Cherry, looking for a white murderer, gets to Jackson, heads east to Maple, runs into an old? guy walking a dog, speaks with him, goes back up Jackson heading west, again on South side of street that he’s already cleared, why wouldn’t he cross to north side of Jackson and go back that way to totally clear Jackson? He doesn’t. Probably a good thng for him that he didn’t.
He gets to Cherry and Jackson and here comes Foukes and Zelm’s. They’ve just seen a white guy who fits description, but ignore him cause he’s white, and they’re still looking for a robber, not a murderer.Are we sure that’s the sequence? It’s what I too thought but last time I brought it up someone said no, Pelissetti didn’t talk to the dog walker until after he spoke to Fouke.
I could use this in Bullet Forum Mat to understand the sequence. Like everything numbered in the correct order to completely follow…. Sorry, but I keep trying to a visual of the whole thing.
bayarea60s, Subject: Chronicle order of Stine scene… Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:22 pm
Zam…
I’ll take that on since I brought it up. Hopefully have it done by tonight…
Zamantha, Subject: Chronicle order of Stine scene… Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:51 pm
Zam…
I’ll take that on since I brought it up. Hopefully have it done by tonight…
Excellent, Bay* Much Thanks….. now get to your busy work!
The Zam* :star:
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:02 pm
So Pellessetti heads off down Cherry, looking for a white murderer, gets to Jackson, heads east to Maple, runs into an old? guy walking a dog, speaks with him, goes back up Jackson heading west, again on South side of street that he’s already cleared, why wouldn’t he cross to north side of Jackson and go back that way to totally clear Jackson? He doesn’t. Probably a good thng for him that he didn’t.
He gets to Cherry and Jackson and here comes Foukes and Zelm’s. They’ve just seen a white guy who fits description, but ignore him cause he’s white, and they’re still looking for a robber, not a murderer.Are we sure that’s the sequence? It’s what I too thought but last time I brought it up someone said no, Pelissetti didn’t talk to the dog walker until after he spoke to Fouke.
I could use this in Bullet Forum Mat to understand the sequence. Like everything numbered in the correct order to completely follow…. Sorry, but I keep trying to a visual of the whole thing.
AaaHaa..! This is where the time-line gets interesting. Every participant I have talked to sees the time line through a lens that is 35-40 yrs old. You would, in my view, have to assemble all the participant cops in one room and let them tell their story. Then, you would hear something like the following;
“No, wait a minute, I got there before you!”
“Hey, you’re right, because I didn’t start down the street until I heard the broadcast about the black guy.”
“Oh yeah, I remember now, you were there before me and after Don.”
“Remember how we ran to the corner of Jackson before that broadcast?”
And on, and on…
So because it is vague, everybody has a vested interest in “correcting” the timeline to bolster their particular POI.
Mike R. has, I believe, the most accurate time-line yet assembled. We acquired it by talking one-on-one to Fouke, Pellessetti, and the Robbins kids (they were watching, too). And, of course Mr. X, who was not there… Is spite of that, there is still doubt about the sequence of events that night.
Like I said, the time line is sort of fluid, but I think we have the best info on that topic without the aforementioned unlikely meeting of the participants, who could refresh each other’s memories.
mike_r, Subject: WHY A DIFFERENT TITLE FOR EVERY POST IN A THREAD? Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:46 pm
Hi-
This really isn’t rocket science. Pelissetti met Fouke on Cherry but exactly where (close to or far from the corner–"far from" being half-way up from Washington– Fouke can’t recall now). The description is changed over Fouke’s radio just as they meet and discuss said change face-to-face. Pelissetti then goes on his journey and runs into X near Maple and Jackson. (Jim is being facetious when he says that X wasn’t there. That is X’s version of it from Jim’s and my 2006 meeting with him and is a product of his "bad memory." That same "bad memory" now has a blog on the Net and was interviewed in an article last year about a major business merger. Someone also apparently spotted this man in public recently and emailed me out of the blue to say that he appears very spry for a man his age.)
Speaking of memory loss, there was an article on sfgate.com last week about a 94 year old woman finishing up her college degree. Not everyone over 80 has dementia. That is Dr. Larry’s view of the world…
Mike
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:57 pm
THis has been a very interesting thread. If the officer goes after Zodiac after 6-7 minutes and runs into Mr. X walking his dog wouldnt he be filled with Stines blood if X was Z. Theres no way he changed that fast.
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:06 pm
Hi-
You get yourself in trouble when you try to recreate the speed at which events took place that night, especially when there are variables of which you may not be aware. That was tried several times by folks on the Voigt board in saying that there wasn’t enough time for Fouke to speak to Z, etc. There are many factors involved here, including how fast some of the principals could run, etc., which may surprise some people, especially Pelissetti!
There is not one detective I’ve spoken to who feels that AP can give an alibi to X based on how fast he did this or that. He did not have a stopwatch on himself and he had to proceed cautiously down Jackson, which has a lot of "nooks and crannies," lest he risk getting his own head blown off.
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: Timeline Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:37 am
Just a couple of points….I’m going off of what Pelessetti says were his movements, coupled with Foukes statements of his. Where on Cherry, or Jackson P and F meet is really not relevant as a timeline issue. We know Foukes was in his car, so if he went up 50′ on Cherry then we’re adding about 1 1/2 secs. Foukes has always stated he saw Armand as he approached Cherry and Jackson, AP also states that’s where he saw Fouke’s. AP states that he saw Fouke’s upon returning from Maple and seeing the dog walker. He would know that.
I think we must go with what the principles have stated publicly on tape. Cause quite frankly every interview I’ve heard of, always contradicts the other guys interview information. So to me there’s not a lot going on there to hang one’s hat on, sorry.
I believe this, on Oct. 11, 1969 every individual involved did their job, most wrote their reports that night or the day after. And if nothing ever came from the case, just another SF murder unsolved and you asked those guys involved 40 years later exactly what took place there could be lots of room for error on their part. That all changed for each of them on Tuesday Oct. 14, 1969, from the moment each of them became aware this was a Z murder they relived their every movement of that Saturday night, and will for the rest of their lives. And they’ve told it to their friends, neighbors, peers, superiors, interviewers, family members 10,000 times over.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:41 pm
AP states that he saw Fouke’s upon returning from Maple and seeing the dog walker. He would know that.
That’s the way the DVD transcript reads alright.
http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.co … lated.html
If this is true, obviously it rules out Mr. X as Z since he would have been seen in his new clothes with dog by Pelissetti prior to Fouke seeing him still dressed as Z. No way he dashed home, changed into new clothes, walked the dog, the ran back and changed back into Z clothes.
However, it would also mean that Pelisssetti called in the revised description from the crime scene, went all the way to Maple, talked to the dog walker and went back to where he met Fouke, and in that amount of time the revised description had still not been broadcast, since Fouke had not yet received it. You would think they would have gotten it out sooner than that, unless there was some lingering confusion or long confirmations going on.
So either it happened this way or Pelissetti is just a bit foggy after all these years and he really saw Fouke first.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:09 pm
I believe this, on Oct. 11, 1969 every individual involved did their job, most wrote their reports that night or the day after.
Why such a delay with Fouke’s "scratch"? Why type that up if he gave a report the next day?
And wouldn’t Fouke and Zelms be the two most important people to give their description of Stine’s killer…and a couple days later Zodiac? Why not go to them for their opinion of the composite? Would seem like the logical thing to do.
If Fouke & Zelms professional input truly WAS NOT considered for the composite, it makes me wonder if Fouke did not come forward with his possible Z encounter until his scratch was written.
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:28 pm
Hi Tahoe-
At this point, we’d need a third party to sort out the whole "did Fouke contribute to the sketch or not?" question. I can make a case either way but having spoken to Fouke and heard him tell the same story over and over in his own words, I have always given him the full benefit of the doubt. A well-practiced face-saving concoction? Can’t rule that out 100%. Jim is more certain that Fouke is telling the truth than I am…
Certainly Fouke’s actions with regard to the timing of the scratch leave him open to second-guessing. Clearly, the story about it being related to when the sketches were released cannot hold water AT ALL. And when you consider that it came out right after Z may have spilled the beans on the actual nature of their encounter that night, it natually makes one suspicious. Bad memory or evasive statement? Can’t say for sure.
It would be redundant to say that this particular topic is the most hotly debated in the case. Be assured that I am trying all the time to locate the artist. However, other than Z, he is the most elusive person in the entire Z case! But slow progress may–and I repeat may– be being made. I’ve learned not to get my hopes up. However, leads are being followed.
If we locate him, we’ll see what the artist has to say about how the sketch was drawn up–and by whom–and whether or not any alterations were made to the "Revised" sketch after it was (presumably) made by the artist and just one of the Stine eyewitnesses.
Plenty of questions but few solid answers–except that the kids swear the sketches are all theirs.
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: Mr. X Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:02 pm
The problem I see here with what I know of this Mr. X theory is that….X shoots Stine, X avoids police and makes it home, safe….X then decides hey lets go back outside where the cops might be and walk the dog. Why would he leave his house? Perhaps I’m missing something here…It’s very possible….
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:44 pm
Hi-
Not trying to be rude, and I can answer the question for both scenarios (seen up close/spoken to by Fouke and Zelms or not seen up close by Fouke and Zelms) but I believe that if you think this through and put yourself in Z’s position for both scenarios, you can figure this out for yourself.
Z didn’t "duck" or "elude" Fouke and Zelms that night; Fouke looked straight at him and simply drove past him as if he were not interested. What would that make Z think about the person they are looking for? The second scenario is even easier…
Mike
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:03 pm
The Second scenario, Mr X is brazen, and felt he was above it all. What a Game, adrenaline running high, why not get it higher. So, lets go out and walk the dog, which is also a good alibi in case someone did know or see him out of the house ! And a first hand, birds eye view of what is coming down.
(( I’m NOT saying MR. X is MR.Z… but just saying…… what if. As I like to look at all the POI’s like this IF they are in the gray area!))
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:13 pm
Hi Zam-
Is that last part a legal disclaimer? 
Mike
Zamantha, Subject: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:21 pm
Hi Zam-
Is that last past a legal disclaimer?
Mike
H____ yeah, something like that! But I’m also on the fence. I love hearing the debate. And I concur there is a HUGH debate here. I guess that’s mainly becuz of who Mr. X. is. What you need to find is people willing to tell you the other side of Mr.X. Like is he controlling, did he have a temper, mood swings, a game player, a pathological lair, sneaky ….are just a few questions that pop in my head. Honestly, I find the posts on Mr. X fascinating, and I want more. I hope you continue to dig. I’m also fully aware of someone being able to present themselves as the perfect person. I worked with someone like that, a VERY charismatic personality. Everyone loved the person…..but you really had to know the person…to see the dark "other" side. Where can you find the peeps that saw his dark side??
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:28 pm
Hi-
Been there, done that. He is very mysterious. A couple of people who "know everyone" in SF high society have never heard of him. A person I spoke to who belongs to an exclusive club that X told me personally he belongs to…never heard of him! An article from the 1960s states that he has been aloof and removed from others all his life…as did someone who knows him. What you project to the world is not necessarily what you get behind the scenes. Many people who post about him on boards like this one seem not to appreciate that fact.
Mike
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:42 pm
Hi-
Been there, done that. He is very mysterious. A couple of people who "know everyone" in SF high society have never heard of him. A person I spoke to who belongs to an exclusive club that X told me personally he belongs to…never heard of him! An article from the 1960s states that he has been aloof and removed from others all his life…as did someone who knows him. What you project to the world is not necessarily what you get behind the scenes. Many people who post about him on boards like this one seem not to appreciate that fact.
Mike
Ok, so one lie. by Mr. X ??.. he said he belongs to an exclusive club ( B. Club ??) and he does not? Does everyone in that club really know or heard of everyone? How many people belong to that club? Could you post the article for us that says he is aloof? I would assume people like him belong to a few clubs. What about his wife and family…what do they say.. if anything? I honestly believe that what some people project is not the whole package of the person. All people are very complex. He appears that HE must be a winner. A winner at everything he does. Wonder what his mood is like if he fails at something. Maybe something was going on bad in his life at that time, if it’s really him…. just an idea… He leaves a lot to ponder….
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:19 pm
Hi-
I have no doubt that he belongs to that club but my point was that he is so mysterious that even another member–and the club is EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY exclusive (i.e., not many members) –seems to know who he is!
No, I won’t post the article because it obviously mentions his name. But it was in a large and popular magazine many years ago–before the Z era.
As for the other stuff…I’ll defer comenting for now.
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: Z Brazen Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:22 pm
What Z did was (like the coward he was), divert his walk up a stairway when Foukes slowed his car up and just looked at him? So because Z feels like he got away and the cops don’t care, therefore he’ll show them, and go back outside and walk his dog. He doesn’t stay inside and get away with murder. This could happen I guess, why not.
I was just askin about something that made no sense to me how it worked. First the timing, for him to change his clothes (that’s always what everyone seemed to focus on), maybe he didn’t bother changing his clothes, why should he do that?
To me that seemed minor next to the question of why would he go back outside? Because he’s bold? Z’s a coward!
At LB a boy looks at him and he turns and walks in the other direction, at PH a cop simply looks at him and again he walks in the other direction. To me Z didn’t ever want any confrontation, and when it did appear to him he quickly turned from it. Tells me he just wants to get away from confrontation, not purposely run towards it.
Zamantha, Subject: Z Brazen Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:32 pm
Mmmm I see you like my Z Brazen term! I think Z could be more complex then we give him credit for. Sometimes you get high, sometimes you get low. Maybe a multiple personality thing happening. He is a coward …..but somehow decides to look fear in it’s eyes….and be Brazen.He got a HIGH after the killing and went on auto pilot.
Thought, maybe he just threw an over jacket on his clothes to hid any spats.
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sat May 01, 2010 4:36 am
Hi-
I don’t think it would be a case of him just deciding on the spur of the moment after encountering Fouke and Zelms to go back out on the streets. I believe this would have been part of the plan for that night that was not going to be thwarted by the encounter. He was going to go back out under completely innocent circumstances, blend into the crowd, and watch the police investigation for details for his letters.
My understanding is that when he was stopped he was wearing casual clothes that you could just "throw on" very quickly. The norm for that time period in that type of neighborhood, according to someone I’ve spoken to, was to wear a suit and tie even when you went out to walk the dog. If you notice in the famous photo of the cab with the artist (I presume) standing there sketching the scene, there is an onlooker in the background on the right wearing a suit and tie at 10 PM on a Saturday night. That was supposedly how even walking the dog was done in PH in 1969…from what I was told, anyway. (I was just a kid in jeans or shorts then, but if you look at the old footage of baseball games, like the Mets winning the 1969 Series at the time of the Stine murder, you’ll see that many people even went to the afternoon games in white shirts and dressed much, much more formally than we’d ever dream of dressing at such events today.)
Mike
, Subject: Z Brazen Sat May 01, 2010 5:13 am
Mmmm I see you like my Z Brazen term!
Thought, maybe he just threw an over jacket on his clothes to hid any spats.
My personal take on "brazen," is this: Z’s power trip is not in the killing, but in the game with the press and the police. I believe he is like an arsonist, who usually melds into the crowd to watch the thrill of the fire that he "created." Arsonists actually get a sexual gratification watching their "work." I think Z planned to watch the carnage he created by blending into the crowd and gathering details for his "press releases" and gets the same sort of kick an arsonist would get. Just my take on motivation…
sandy betts, Subject: blood Sun May 02, 2010 4:35 am
Mmmm I see you like my Z Brazen term!
Thought, maybe he just threw an over jacket on his clothes to hid any spats.
I would think that holding a mans head in your lap after blowing his brains out, would leave more than just a few spats of blood on your clothes.
The people who lived in that time did dress up when ever we went to S.F. It was the big city,and everyone was dressed to the 9’s ,except for the hippies on Height St. I remember how I loved going to the city, because I could get all dressed up even in the mid 70’s. Now it is very different, I get all dressed up when I go to the symphony in SF for a play, but the rest of the time I am in jeans.
The man I believe is the Z is bold at times, but will walk in another direction to avoid confrontation, unless he has a gun in his hand, then look out he won’t run then ! He actually ran from me once, and I am only 5ft2in ,well 5ft 1 and 3/4 inches to be exact. He ran like a duck side to side, in a fast pace with his head down. Limping the first few steps then not so much of a limp.
That was at my work in Oakland late 80’s, on the weekend ,in the late afternoon. My hand went in front of him to empty his ash tray. He leaped off of that bar stool ,as if I got him with a cattle prod in a place where the sun won’t shine.
Some of you are thinking who is she kidding ?
If that was the Z man he wouldn’t run. Who ever he is, he has chased me and I have chased him, until he shot at me for doing that !
Now he waves at me as he drives by, knowing that I won’t follow him ever again . I was born on a Sunday, but not last Sunday ! His hands are pretty shaky now, that might be how he just missed my head by about 2 inches.
When he would sit at the far end of the bar, I didn’t notice any shaking, but when he was next to me, it was as if he was in a .7 earth quake. That was kind of scary, because I felt his hate for me at that moment. And I wasn’t sure what he was getting ready to do ? When he looks at you up close, its as if he looks right through you. You are only a object to him, and you feel like a small bug about to be crushed at any moment. He enjoys the power he has at those times.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
bayarea60s, Subject: Z Timeline at PH Tue May 04, 2010 2:48 am
We all know of the famed dispatcher or kid error in falsely reporting that there was a robbery by a black male adult, but there’s another dispatch problem or RO problem one we haven’t pondered on too much. And this one has far larger consequences to Z escaping that evening.
I’ll take this from the time RO’s Pellessetti and Peda arrive at Washington and Cherry streets…
1.Pellessetti roles up on scene, kids apparently still see Z on Cherry, he hasn’t reached Jackson yet.
2.Pellessetti escorts kids back to their house, goes over to cab, see’s a White Cabbie and is pretty sure he’s dead by the amount of blood he observes inside of cab.
3. Pel. states he couldn’t get back to his car quick enough to report in the perp update and the condition of victim. He never says he does this, and I believe evidence from dispatch shows he didn’t.
4. So Pellessetti heads off down Cherry, looking for a white murderer, gets to Jackson, heads east to Maple.
5. Pellessetti runs into a much older gentleman than kids described (I wonder if P ever placed an age on this guy, 40, or 65)? This gentleman is walking his dog, Pel. speaks with him, goes back up Jackson heading west.
6. Foukes and Zelms are heading north on Presidio, just south of Washington when dispatch comes on and tells them of black robbery suspect. Foukes says he turned on squad car running lights (overhead lights), goes up 1 1/2 blocks to Jackson and turns left, heading west. From the time Foukes receives that dispatch, he was about 45 seconds from running into Z. About 1 minute from meeting up with Pellessetti.
7. Foukes states he was travelling between 35-40 MPH heading west on Jackson Street.
8. As Fouke’s and Zelms approach Jackson and Maple St. intersection Sgt. Foukes sees a white male adult walking east on Jackson on the north side of Jackson straight towards them. Foukes begins to slow down to check out perp, perp goes up steps towards a house and stops. Foukes and Z are face to face. Foukes sees man is white and immediately hits the gas and moves on heading west on Jackson.
9. Foukes is about 15 seconds from running into Pellessetti, and getting updated on perp.
10. Pel. gets to Cherry and Jackson, turns left on Cherry and begins making his way back up to the crime scene.
11. Foukes and Zelm’s pull up behind Pel. In speaking with Pel. Foukes becomes aware that perp is actually white, not black, as he heard from dispatch.
12. Foukes and Zelms become aware that cabbie is dead. Now they know they’re looking for a white murderer. They just past a white perp on Jackson matching description about 15 seconds earlier.
13. At least a minimum of 6-7 minutes has passed from the time Pellessetti knows, white cabbie is dead, and yet no call into dispatch.
Please feel free to rip this apart. I’m taking this information from the DVD that was put together by the folks who made the Zodiac movie. These were the statements shared by the RO’s Foukes and Pellessetti druing the interview. I know there are lots of other scenario’s out there. Some of them supposedely from these 2 LE offciers who were there, Fouke’s and Pellessetti. I don’t know about any of those private interviews except what’s been reported by the folks who did said interviews. I can only go by what these 2 LE officer’s shared publicly about what took place in the Presidio Heights murder of Paul Stine on Oct. 11, 1969.
My goal is to get a very accurate timeline. Some may think that’s not possible. We’ve already done this with regards to the exact location of Z and Fouke’s, from when they first saw each other, until Fouke’s car passes Z. We found through this investigating, despite what police reports told us, that it was impossible for LE to see Z heading in any direction, other than east on Jackson. In other words it’s impossbile for Fouke’s to have seen Z get to Maple St., let alone turn north on Maple and head towards Julius Kahn Park. Impossible.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 04, 2010 12:18 pm
It has been stated many times by the despatch that night that they were getting so many calls that the actual details were never put out properly. Despatch acknowledge that they screwed it up that night. Pellesetti called it in, what would be his reason not too. He then also on his own went out to locate the killer on foot and with no back up.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 04, 2010 12:18 pm
My biggest question is when did Fouke and Zelms tell fellow officers about the white man they had JUST seen?
??
And why didn’t the dogs follow HIS trail to the house Fouke reported…..(many, many years later)
bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe27 Tue May 04, 2010 12:33 pm
From what I got off the DVD, I don’t believe Foukes told anyone about the house where he saw Z. He stated something to the fact of "Let the detectives figure it out". I’d like to ask him how would they do that if they had no idea where he saw Z? Pellessetti says something to the same tune, "Let the detectives do their job". Again that’s true if you shared everything with the detectives. But if you don’t tell them everything you encountered kind of makes their job much harder, if not impossible.
As for the dogs. It would be great to get some of those dog handlers from that evening to speak on what exactly they tracked. From where to where.
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar… Tue May 04, 2010 12:56 pm
Dispatch has always admitted that there was a screw up in the initial message of the perp being black vs. white, it being a robbery vs. a murder. It has never been concluded if that was on the teens side or theirs.
As for Pellessetti’s call, no one has ever addressed that. How many calls would dispatch have been getting on this crime? There were more witnesses? No. So it’s the kids and the cops on the scene, they would be the only one’s calling. If you take all of the city at large that night there was but one murder, one murderer at large with a gun. That trumps all other activities cause their police on the streets are in grave danger.
There was so much heat on SFPD from this crime, if the Chief could have sold Dispatch down the tubes for totally blowing it, he would have, in a heartbeat. I could see Pellessetti realizing he’s on the heels of this guy, can’t let him get away, he’ll just go and get him. Maybe he left word with Peda to place the call. Peda’s gone now, I don’t think we’ll ever get an answer to it. But Pellessetti has never stated, "I immediately called dispatch to report the perp and crime update".
I will go back and re-read the report for the 10,000 time, but I believe that the ambulance/coroner received their call around 10:10pm. I think I’m recalling that correctly. If that’s true, shooting occurred around 9:55pm, 15 minutes later, after Pellessetti returns, call is made.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 04, 2010 12:59 pm
Another thing that is strange is if Pellesetti walked around the block and then back again till Fouke saw him makes no sense. There are only so many houses between Cherry and Maple, and the house they apparently saw Zodiac near is only about 3 or 4 houses from the corner where Pellesetti was supposedly. That would mean that Pellesetti walked past the Zodiac twice whilst he was hiding there and then came out of hiding only to run into Fouke and Zelms. It would also mean why did he talk of two cops pulling a goof when Pellesetti must have walked slowly past him twice. Unless he couldn’t see Pellessetti because he was in the house itself getting changed.
I always thought Pellesetti set off and Fouke and Zelms had their encounter and then encountered Pellesetti (who they fail to tell about the man they just saw and let him walk off on his own) who informs them of the WMA and they then proceed to the area of the cab.
One scenario poses not many problems the other opens up a whole new set.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 04, 2010 1:54 pm
"If you take all of the city at large that night there was but one murder, one murderer at large with a gun. That trumps all other activities cause their police on the streets are in grave danger."
The fact that the police on the streets were in grave danger is something that I had never thought of before. My father and my older brother used to live in San Francisco in the late forties. At that time, my brother was a teenager and he was free to roam the city alone during the day. I remember him telling me later that the city was only 7 square miles and that he could cover most of it in a day. Not only that, but the city is surrounded by water on three sides and there are only a few ways out. They include two bridges, the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay Bridge. They also included three freeways to the south, Bayshore, Highway 1 and the Great Highway. So, the police, as well as citizens, were pretty much pinned in with a killer.
bayarea60s, Subject: The House on Jackson Tue May 04, 2010 5:43 pm
Solar….
Actually the house where Foukes saw Z standing on the steps is the last house on the north side of Jackson before you get to Maple. So Z was hiding in all likelihood from Pellessetti’s view at one of the houses more in the middle of the block on Jackson, or maybe behind a car parked there.
We know Z fit the dress description the kids had already given. So prior to Foukes seeing Z, I don’t think he changed his clothes.
Foukes and Zelms never proceeded to the crime scene. They proceeded to head west on Jackson, turned right onto Arguello, and another right onto Pacific and then sped down Pacific to Julius Kahn Playground/park area.
I don’t think anyone has ever gotten Foukes and Pellessetti to agree on the series of events. Yeah we can easily come up with other scenarios, and some pose very complex assumptions, and some are perhaps believeable.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri May 07, 2010 12:46 am
Solar….
Actually the house where Foukes saw Z standing on the steps is the last house on the north side of Jackson before you get to Maple. So Z was hiding in all likelihood from Pellessetti’s view at one of the houses more in the middle of the block on Jackson, or maybe behind a car parked there.
We know Z fit the dress description the kids had already given. So prior to Foukes seeing Z, I don’t think he changed his clothes.
Foukes and Zelms never proceeded to the crime scene. They proceeded to head west on Jackson, turned right onto Arguello, and another right onto Pacific and then sped down Pacific to Julius Kahn Playground/park area.
I don’t think anyone has ever gotten Foukes and Pellessetti to agree on the series of events. Yeah we can easily come up with other scenarios, and some pose very complex assumptions, and some are perhaps believeable.
Thanks Bayarea for this info. and your posts on putting together a time line. I for one appreciate it! I have been to the location and tried to get a sense of the events and where Z could of gone. Thank you for the info on the house where Foukes saw Z. I still keep pondering. This thread captures my interest….. they were so close …yet so far away…. It plays with my head……I really MUST have the facts!
Thanks to JDean for the truths, as it is very seldom that we get someone here with the real stories. I’m hoping you will stick with us, and help us out on some of the other threads (Like the Time Line of LHR) Or geeeze start your own thread….and just let us from day 1 of working on the cold Z case…where you began and what you did. I will be more then happy to start a thread for YOU*, just
give me the word!
AND MIKE R. What can I say, you present a VERY interesting case. I hope you continue to tell us more…….
Zincerely, Zam*
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri May 07, 2010 1:16 am
Here are the steps at the address Fouke, on the DVD, states Z walked up. Beyond is the corner of Jackson and Maple where he originally stated he observed Z.
bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Fri May 07, 2010 4:55 am
Great Pic.
It’s all in the movement of Fouke’s/Zelms in car at 35-40 MPH, and Z on foot say around 4 MPH. I’m doing this from memory, I have it all documented in my files, but if you look at those steps to Maple St. I believe it’s around 78-80′. So at 4 MPH it would take Z about 13 seconds to get to Maple. In 13 secs. Foukes/Zelms car would have travelled 663′. Foukes would have already been speaking with Pellessetti by the time Z could get to Maple. St. So it all hinges on the phantom witness who said they saw a man running into the park. If that witness never existed, then there’s nothing more than assumption that places Z going into the Park.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri May 07, 2010 5:30 am
Great Pic.
It’s all in the movement of Fouke’s/Zelms in car at 35-40 MPH, and Z on foot say around 4 MPH. I’m doing this from memory, I have it all documented in my files, but if you look at those steps to Maple St. I believe it’s around 78-80′. So at 4 MPH it would take Z about 13 seconds to get to Maple. In 13 secs. Foukes/Zelms car would have travelled 663′. Foukes would have already been speaking with Pellessetti by the time Z could get to Maple. St. So it all hinges on the phantom witness who said they saw a man running into the park. If that witness never existed, then there’s nothing more than assumption that places Z going into the Park.
My understanding from talking to all of the witnesses, there never was a witness who saw Z enter the park. He was last seen at the corner of Cherry & Jackson, Either at the SE corner, or crossing North to the NE corner. This was witnessed by Lindsey Robbins, who was the last to see Z, until Fouke saw him on Jackson.
As far as Pellessetti is concerned, he said he didn’t just walk straight down Jackson, but he was checking each stairwell. dark area, nook and cranny along Jackson to be sure he wasn’t missing Z.
If Z was hiding within the block, he could emerge behind him, with a surprise..!
With no one to cover him, that is a deliberate and somewhat time-consuming task.
So that should add a minute, or more likely two, to the time-line.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Fri May 07, 2010 12:29 pm
So it all hinges on the phantom witness who said they saw a man running into the park. If that witness never existed, then there’s nothing more than assumption that places Z going into the Park.
Or you could take Zodiac’s word for it. :joker:
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Fri May 07, 2010 6:27 pm
"My understanding from talking to all of the witnesses, there never was a witness who saw Z enter the park. He was last seen at the corner of Cherry & Jackson, Either at the SE corner, or crossing North to the NE corner. This was witnessed by Lindsey Robbins, who was the last to see Z, until Fouke saw him on Jackson."
This has been my understanding. I’ve never found that "other" witness who saw Z in park. I’ve always wondered if such a witness ever existed. Z had to really be flipping out when he saw Pellessetti’s unit role up on Washington, right behind him.
"As far as Pellessetti is concerned, he said he didn’t just walk straight down Jackson, but he was checking each stairwell. dark area, nook and cranny along Jackson to be sure he wasn’t missing Z."
Yeah I’ve never done a timeline taking that into account. But it would take Pellessetti far longer than my timeline to make his trek from Wash/Cherry to Jackson/Maple . He earned his pension that night. I really feel given all the info we have, if Pellessetti crosses Jackson on his way back from Maple back up to Cherry that he would have found Z. I don’t think it would have come out good for Pellessetti being Z would be surprising him. And with Foukes/Zelms coming right up behind him something would have had to give. Wonder if Z would have ever been linked to Stine killing? Wonder if Z would have taken down an officer? I would think the answer is yes, but I don’t know.
bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe stated Fri May 07, 2010 6:31 pm
"Or you could take Zodiac’s word for it."
Tahoe, with those dogs I have a hard time believing Z on that one.
I’d sure like to hear from some of those dog handlers. did they ever start from Stine’s cab? If so, then why would dogs lose trail. In reading through the police reports it sounds like all dogs were focused on Park area only. That would be another break for Z.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sat May 08, 2010 3:19 pm
I contacted Armond Pelissetti this week and asked him:
"Did you go down Jackson St. in search of Zodiac (he didn’t know who it was at the time of course) prior to officer Fouke arriving on the scene?"
His answer: "Yes". Confirms what we hear on the DVD interview, and at least we know there was no editing of the conversation that made it come out that way.
bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley Sat May 08, 2010 4:12 pm
I’m sure you don’t want to bother Armand, but the next time you speak with him, if you could ask him to give us the approximate age of the dog walker he spoke with. I know Armand refers to him as a much older gentleman. That always made it seem to me a guy well up in his 60’s or older. Now that’s my assumption. I’d appreciate it. We’ve got to get any loose ends from these witnesses closed while they’re still wish us. None of us last forever, and once they’re gone the world will have no one to ask. I believe with all the police work done, and all these boards over the years there has been an incredible amount of information garnered. I think somewhere in all of it lies Z and we’ve just got to figure out how to uncover him.
bayarea60s, Subject: Bentley… Sat May 08, 2010 4:34 pm
With Armand re-affirming that he went to Maple and saw the dog walker before Armand sees Foukes, then the timing doesn’t bode well for the dog walker = Mr. X = Z…. Armand saw the dog walker before Foukes runs into Z. Foukes never mentions a dog. The clothes of the guy Foukes sees very much matches the description by the kids. So the dog walker can = Mr. X, but Mr. X can’t = Z.
This isn’t a shot at Mike R’s. guy. Not meant to be. The idea should be if some evidence comes up that eliminates a POI, then that’s the way it is and should be. Why it would be important to get Armand to further ID the age of the dog walker he saw. If Armand estimates the guy was around 70, whoever that guy was, wasn’t Z, nor was he Mr. X.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 2:27 am
If we take it that Armand walks carefully all the way around the block whilst searching in every nook and cranny that he possibly can, spies the dog walker not only finds him suspicious but talks to him and asks for ID, then carefully walks back before encountering Z then how long is that, up to ten minutes or so, longer?
In his letter Z states,3 mins after he left the cab before the two officers pull the goof. In effect he makes it sound like he walked away and when on Jackson ran into Fouke and Zelms. We have been led to believe the officers were on the scene quickly, with not much time for Z to get away. I said in another post here that why did the Zodiac not go on about the cop who pulled a goof? You would think it would amuse him more that a policeman walked past him twice as he hid than two that supposedly just drove by him in their squad car. If it took so long then he would have had time to change his clothes, and if he was still on Jackson, where was he hiding? Surely he would have seen Armand passing either the first or the second time he passed? If he didn’t it could only mean one thing to me, he was in a house changing/ hiding his trophys and thus failed to see Armand searching (which we know he did) it would also mean that he waited for him to go past, didn’t look and walks out and encounters the police car coming up the road.
To be searching the area, walking round the block and back again whilst also encountering the dog walker and speaking to him, takes longer than 3mins, especially since he also did other things at the cab first before setting off on foot. Very odd.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 9:28 am
Where is it written that Armond Pelissetti did anything more than walk carefully down Cherry and Jackson trying not to get his head blown off?
At that point the motive was cab robbery. Cab drivers normally just flee the scene. It was not someone who was trapped, nor a psycho bent on hanging around.
Maybe AP had it wrong after all these years, don’t know.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 9:37 am
I contacted Armond Pelissetti this week and asked him:
"Did you go down Jackson St. in search of Zodiac (he didn’t know who it was at the time of course) prior to officer Fouke arriving on the scene?"
His answer: "Yes". Confirms what we hear on the DVD interview, and at least we know there was no editing of the conversation that made it come out that way.
Hi bentley
Great work !
If you talk to Pelissetti again could you please ask him; were exactley he was located when Fouke encountered him?
I ask because due to what Pelissetti have stated, it sounds like he encountered Fouke right after he met the man with the dog (a bit south on Maple St), and on his way back (just around the corner) to Jackson St.
So that means somwere just around the corner of Maple St on Jackson st.
But Fouke stated he met Pelissetti at the corner of Cherri St and Jackson St and that Pellistti was walking NORTH on Cherry St at that time!
I mean why would Pellissetti walk north?
IF he was at Cherry St, he was on his way BACK to the murderscene and would have been walking SOUTH on Cherry St.
Also I would like to know if he knows were Fouke went after the search for the suspect at the presidio/playground? Did Fouke and Zelms go to the crimescene and kind of tell that they had met the suspect?
And does anyone know wether Fouke ever gave the EXACT time when he recived the very first call/info on that a crime was commited at Washington/Cherry? and that the suspect was a black man?
And did Fouke ever explain EXACTLEY when and by whom he got the additional info that the suspect was a WHITE man?
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 9:53 am
Thanks TF.
I will ask if the opportunity presents itself. AP was brief, not sure he would appreciate further contact. He has my number..
I see what you mean on AP’s location when DF showed up, however, without watching the DVD, the transcript appears to have a break just prior, perhaps some less relevant material is not included, such as his walk back towards Cherry. Or perhaps AP omitted it as not relevant. DF’s statement that AP was walking north does not fit, unless he turned around when he heard the patrol car or something. Hard to say what’s right and wrong with these details after all these years.
I would think that in the days or weeks afterward, when AP learned that Z was spotted on Jackson, he would have had a chilling memory of having walked past that point prior to Fouke arriving, and wouldn’t have forgotten it but again who knows.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 12:04 pm
Hi Bently I do not mean it odd that Armand was taking his time, more that we are led to believe mostly from accounts given from both RG and others that all officers were there quickly etc, I always believed that AP met Fouke on his way around the block first time and not on the way back. It’s the time element. If we go on what he says then there is a lot more time involved, possibly ten minutes or so. More than enough time for Z to change out of bloody clothing etc, I also don’t see why Z would rag on the two cops in the car when one had walked past him. So either he was in a house/car or he was further down the road when Fouke and Zelms encountered him. If he was further down the road that would explain why he did not see AP and also why AP did not encounter him. There is also the question of did Fouke see him go towards Julius Khan which is also further down or into a stairwell on Jackson. In Unmasked Toschi is adamant that Fouke told him the Presidio. If that is the case then he must have been further down when he met Fouke for them to see him cross over and head for the Presidio/JKP. As in possibly along Jackson between Maple and Spruce.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 2:00 pm
Thanks TF.
I will ask if the opportunity presents itself. AP was brief, not sure he would appreciate further contact. He has my number..
I see what you mean on AP’s location when DF showed up, however, without watching the DVD, the transcript appears to have a break just prior, perhaps some less relevant material is not included, such as his walk back towards Cherry. Or perhaps AP omitted it as not relevant. DF’s statement that AP was walking north does not fit, unless he turned around when he heard the patrol car or something. Hard to say what’s right and wrong with these details after all these years.
I would think that in the days or weeks afterward, when AP learned that Z was spotted on Jackson, he would have had a chilling memory of having walked past that point prior to Fouke arriving, and wouldn’t have forgotten it but again who knows.
Sound great bentley:)… and yes a brake in the interview might be the reason.
Another possible senario?:
What if Fouke in fact encountered Z at the intersection of Spruce St and Jackson St ? and NOT Maple!
And Fouke stoped Z, talked to Z for about 30-60 seconds, and then belived he saw Z turn north down Spurce St which lead directly into the Julius Kahn Playground
Fouke then continued to the intersection of Maple and Jackson were Pelisetti had just talked to the man with the dog, and was now walking north on Maple reaching the corner of Maple/Jackson when Fouke drive his car over to Pellissetti ect ect.
This scenario would make the whole thing fit nicely, except why would Fouke say that it was at Maple/Jackson he met Z and that he met Pellissetti at Cherry/Jackson if it in fact was Spurce/ Jackson and Maple/Jackson???
One thing to ponder is that this scenario would make Z´s possition, "at the stairways", right at Mr X´s house!
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 6:47 pm
Hi Bently I do not mean it odd that Armand was taking his time, more that we are led to believe mostly from accounts given from both RG and others that all officers were there quickly etc, I always believed that AP met Fouke on his way around the block first time and not on the way back. It’s the time element. If we go on what he says then there is a lot more time involved, possibly ten minutes or so. More than enough time for Z to change out of bloody clothing etc, I also don’t see why Z would rag on the two cops in the car when one had walked past him. So either he was in a house/car or he was further down the road when Fouke and Zelms encountered him. If he was further down the road that would explain why he did not see AP and also why AP did not encounter him. There is also the question of did Fouke see him go towards Julius Khan which is also further down or into a stairwell on Jackson. In Unmasked Toschi is adamant that Fouke told him the Presidio. If that is the case then he must have been further down when he met Fouke for them to see him cross over and head for the Presidio/JKP. As in possibly along Jackson between Maple and Spruce.
Hi Solar,
I too always thought AP met Fouke first, at least until I got the DVD.
For anyone that hasn’t seen it, here is some video of Fouke (and Paul Avery) again recounting the event. On this one he doesn’t mention stopping to see AP at all, only that he heard over the radio of the new description and off he went into the park.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3kD-j25jQ
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 7:20 pm
Hi Bently I do not mean it odd that Armand was taking his time, more that we are led to believe mostly from accounts given from both RG and others that all officers were there quickly etc, I always believed that AP met Fouke on his way around the block first time and not on the way back. It’s the time element. If we go on what he says then there is a lot more time involved, possibly ten minutes or so. More than enough time for Z to change out of bloody clothing etc, I also don’t see why Z would rag on the two cops in the car when one had walked past him. So either he was in a house/car or he was further down the road when Fouke and Zelms encountered him. If he was further down the road that would explain why he did not see AP and also why AP did not encounter him. There is also the question of did Fouke see him go towards Julius Khan which is also further down or into a stairwell on Jackson. In Unmasked Toschi is adamant that Fouke told him the Presidio. If that is the case then he must have been further down when he met Fouke for them to see him cross over and head for the Presidio/JKP. As in possibly along Jackson between Maple and Spruce.
Hi Solar,
I too always thought AP met Fouke first, at least until I got the DVD.
For anyone that hasn’t seen it, here is some video of Fouke (and Paul Avery) again recounting the event. On this one he doesn’t mention stopping to see AP at all, only that he heard over the radio of the new description and off he went into the park.
Thanks bently that was a great video!
here is another one with Fouke and Pellisetti explaining about Oct 11, 1969:
"This is the Zodiac Speaking"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdVuxXLr … re=related
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 8:30 pm
Hi-
I’ve been trying to stay out of the fray as much as possible but I just want to say that from my research Solar has it 100% right. Regardless of the impressions that anyone may have, I don’t see how it could be any other way than Fouke seeing the man who was Z, Fouke going to Cherry and turning the corner and encountering AP as he was on his way from the cab up Cherry, and then AP heading eventually to Maple where he meets X AFTER, AFTER, AFTER meeting Fouke.
And folks, please do not try to rewrite history. AP has confirmed to Jim on three separate occasions that is was X that he met. He was cagey but we eventually got him to WRITE that perosn’s name in a letter he sent to Jim. He spelled it correctly, too. He knew how old X was, who he was, how to spell his name, and where he lived because he asked him to ID himself and to account for what he had been doing in the time just prior to the encounter.
Mike
, Subject: STINE SUSPECT WITNESS RENDERING Sun May 09, 2010 9:56 pm
So, awhile back I ran across an artist rendering of a POI of mine, drawn in the last several years. When I saw it, I thought, I’ve seen a drawing just like that! I asked if someone would post the MysterQuest age-progressed drawing of the Stine murder witness’ suspect rendering, and I was right. Tell me what you think…
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun May 09, 2010 10:07 pm
Hi Mike,
How do you account for AP stating he went down Jackson prior to seeing Fouke? Was he mistaken, did he not remember going down the street in search of a killer, a street that Fouke and Zelms had just driven up, without remembering he had talked to them prior? Or is he lying, what would be the reason?
" I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn’t get my head blown off. Got down to the corner of Jackson Street, had to make a choice. I was on the east side of the street, so I turned right to the east, went up in that direction. I couldn’t see anybody in either direction, nor could I see anybody scaling a wall into the Presidio. I got all the way down to the next corner which was Maple. Decision number two, which way to go? Looked to the left, toward the Presidio, saw absolutely nothing. It was much darker there. I figured the chance of finding somebody was almost nil. I turned to the right and I saw a man walking his dog. He was somewhat older than the description I had, a whole lot thinner, and he had absolutely no blood on his clothes. I asked that gentleman if he saw anybody walking in the area and he told me, "No."
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 3:16 am
Thanks TF and Bently for the links. If AP is correct and he encountered Fouke and Zelms after speaking to the dog walker then the dog walker cannot be the same man that Fouke encountered as AP and the dog walker would have to have walked from Maple onto Jackson more or less at the same time for Fouke to see him, then drive on and see AP. The problem being that Fouke does not describe the Zodiac having a dog. So if AP’s version is correct and he saw Fouke after the Dog walker then I don’t see how the Dog Walker can be the Zodiac.
If he encounters Fouke before he sets off for his encounter with the dog walker then it is a possibillity. AP arrives at the cab he first speaks to the kids and checks on Stine, then calls in and sets off for Cherry, I think we have two minutes there for a start, checking carefully along Cherry probably another one and a half to two minutes, along Jackson which is a longer street at least a couple of minutes, gets to the intersection with Maple and spots dog walker and talks to him at least two minutes if not more, asks if he has seen anyone he states no, goes back along towards Cherry, another minute and a half (and this is a quick version), so before he encounters Fouke I reckon minimum at least 9 minutes. I don’t think there is any way he would fail to see or hear the cop car behind him and a suspect sneaking out at that area of Jackson between Maple and Cherry, I think if this happened the way AP stats then Fouke must have encountered Zodiac between Maple and Spruce, with Spruce we know it continues down more or less right into JKP. Fouke states on the DVD they first saw the Suspect as ‘they’ approached Maple so ‘they’ were between Maple and Spruce when they see him and not Maple and Cherry.
Also even if the Zodiac had scoped the area, would he really be so positive about going into the park about a block and a half away from his encounter with the police officers, and is Maple and spruce not nearer a block and a half compared to Cherry and Maple. I don’t think he’s telling the truth about going into the park though but his position and time scale is interesting.
If AP met Fouke before the dog walker then he is at the cab still two minutes perhaps more, going down Cherry a minute and a half, meets Fouke at the intersection probably at least a minute and a half talking to him, he carries on Jackson another two minutes carefully checking before he spies the dog walker. I’d say minimum a potential seven minutes. If three minutes after he leaves the cab he is spied by Fouke and Zelms (who for seeing him for 5 to 10 seconds give an awfully good description) then that would leave him 4 minutes to go into a house change clothing and grab a dog. AP is quite confident that the dog walker had no blood. And if it was possibly three and a half to four minutes before he sees Fouke and the Zodiac states he was ‘seen’ by the cops about three minutes after he left the cab then they roll up to Cherry the time scale fits.
I can’t think of any other scenarios at this time (you all sigh with relief) but if AP meets Fouke after the dog walker then it has them getting to the scene probably ten minutes or so after getting the call and that to me seems longer than we’ve been led to believe before, and certainly longer than the Zodiac states in his letter, unless the time lapse can be resolved by them getting out of the car and talking to him, in which case I would rule out the dog walker.
BTW. In the link that TF put up when Fouke talks about seeing the composite at the station, they put up another drawn composite, was this drawn for the DVD or does anyone know when this was done. Possibly with assistance from any of the witnesses?
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 3:56 am
Hi-
I don’t know why AP says this but common sense dictates that it happened the other way. When Fouke turned the corner on Cherry he saw AP working his way UP Cherry towards Jackson from the crime scene. Unless you want to argue that AP went around the block twice before Fouke could make it from where he was to their meeeting point, AP ran into the dog walker after he met Fouke.
I spoke to Fouke for an hour and a half recently and he tells it the same way every time and never has to catch himself or correct himself no matter where in his story he picks up the narrative.
AP changed the description before he left the crime scene, as per his words about "not being able to change the description fast enough." (Does that mean that he walked around the block and spoke to X and then went back to the cab and changed the description? Common sense says no.) It got changed on Fouke’s radio just as Fouke encountered AP on Cherry, maybe 2/3rds of the way up to Jackson. For your scenario to be true, it would have had to take a hell of a long time for that description to be changed over the air, right? Are you saying that AP walked around the block to Maple, spoke to X (and he spent some time with him, BTW), walked around the block to Cherry again (or backtracked to Cherry on Jackson) and was coming UP Cherry a second time when he met Fouke?
Did you ever consider the possibility that AP did not know that Fouke had encountered anyone because Fouke muttered his "expletive" under his breath and just took off without another word? Time was of the essence and he apparently did not wait around to explain to AP that he had seen someone at Maple. He just took off to find the guy because he was getting away, presumably into the park!
When you post a quote like the one about AP walking quickly around the block, where is the quote about the rest of AP’s story about that night? It would have to go something like this, "I got back to the crime scene and saw the ambulance driver, Inspector Walt Kracke of the Homicide detail and then, a few minutes later, Inspectors Dave Toschi and Bill Armstrong, two of the best, arrived on the scene. I then went to my car and changed the description of the suspect over the air so everyone else would know and I proceeded to work my way back up Jackson to Cherry. That is when I ran into Officer Fouke."
It doesn’t seem to make any sense when you flesh it out like that, right? Or what are you proposing for how he met Fouke?
Mike
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 4:27 am
Hi-
What this leaves us with then are two possibilties:
1) Either AP walked around the block twice and in doing so was for some unknown reason searching the bushes and stairwells carefully on his way up to Jackson long after Z had fled the area (i.e., on AP’s SECOND trip around the block) when he runs into Fouke or…
2) AP for some reason simply forgot to add the fact that he encountered Fouke on his first and only trip around the block in the quote that Bentley posted.
The reader has to decide which one makes more sense to him or her.
Mike
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 9:55 am
Thanks TF and Bently for the links. If AP is correct and he encountered Fouke and Zelms after speaking to the dog walker then the dog walker cannot be the same man that Fouke encountered as AP and the dog walker would have to have walked from Maple onto Jackson more or less at the same time for Fouke to see him, then drive on and see AP. The problem being that Fouke does not describe the Zodiac having a dog. So if AP’s version is correct and he saw Fouke after the Dog walker then I don’t see how the Dog Walker can be the Zodiac.
Hi Solar,
Yes AP’s version (not mine, I wasn’t there) rules out the dog walker as Z, in case that isn’t becomming painfully obvious. I have done what I can by contacting AP and confriming what he says on the DVD, and it really makes no difference to me one way or the other, there are too many other things ruling out Mr. X for me.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 12:24 pm
Mike the scenarios are for him encountering Fouke, if he was on his way back from supposedly meeting the dog walker then it takes a helluva long time. I have always believed and feel it fits a time frame better that he met him after he started out, so that there was only perhaps 4 or 5 minutes spent at best. If AP doesn’t meet him till he’s coming back from the dog walker than it could be as much as ten minutes, which I actually believe is far too long.
To be honest I think the Zodiacs version of events are correct and unless he was some close confident or relative of Fouke, Zelms or an SFPD superior that they may have related these events to, then shortly after he left the cab he gets stopped by Fouke and Zelms about 3 mins from leaving the cab and then takes off (although I doubt he used the Presidio,) more likely he headed towards a waiting car/apartment. In every other crime scene he got away in a car so I don’t doubt this one would be too different. I also believe that Fouke and Zelms must have shouted out or asked him if he had seen someone. I don’t believe Fouke got that great a look at the Zodiac to give the description he did which also includes I believe a widows peak from a 5 to 10 second drive by.
I think amendments were made to that composite from someone that got a good look at the Zodiac, someone close enough could only mean Fouke and Zelms. Unless the amendments were made to represent the person that the eight year old picked out as a suspect, which means they probably used a photograph. It could be a possibillity but it’s slim.
mike_r, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 5:35 pm
Hi-
I asked Fouke the other day how he got as good a description of the guy in such a short period of time and how some people construe that as circumstantial evidence of his getting a much better look than he is letting on. He said to me that when someone asks you what someone looks like the way you do it is to look at clothes-what color and style jacket?, what color pants?, what type of shoes?, etc. All of those things can register quickly, as well as an impression of the face.
Who is more believable? The kids stared at the guy under great lighting conditions for a minute or two or more. Fouke is a trained observer but only got a brief glimpse. I was hopeful that the changes to the sketch came from F and Z because four of them are features on X’s face (especially the furrow next ot the left eye) but the more times you speak to Fouke, the more he sounds like he is telling the truth. Like I said, I’m looking for the artist.
As for the widow’s peak, for those who know the difference between the two, Fouke and I worked it out the other day that what he believes is a "widow’s peak" is what the rest of us call a receding hairline. Eddie Munster had a widow’s peak. That is not what he was describing.
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: Armand’s Search & Mr. X Mon May 10, 2010 6:22 pm
There are 2 scenarios. One I believed for some 40 years until I saw the DVD, the other is based on what Armand said on the DVD.
So let’s take the first. Armand begins his search for Z walking down Cherry heading North towards Jackson. Fouke’s is responding to robbery call looking for a BMA, he’s heading west on Jackson. Fouke’s sees a WMA coming down Jackson heading east directly towards him. Foukes sees the man, observes that he’s a WMA and continues west on Jackson. Within 15 seconds Fouke’s sees Armand at Cherry and Jackson, they converse, Fouke’s backs out back onto Jackson and continues west towards Arguello. Armand heads east on Jackson towards Maple. Time elapsed since Fouke’s saw Z until now, 30-45 seconds.
Z has continued on down Jackson heading east towards Spruce. It will take Z 90 seconds to 2 minutes to get to Jackson and Spruce. Armand is already heading east on Jackson towards Maple. It will take him 3-4 minutes to get to Maple St. (this is giving him ample time to go carefully), otherwise he covers it in about 90 seconds, ok. So Z goes into his house, changes his clothes and gets his dog, and now walks back up Jackson heading west (uphill by the way, all the way to Maple), takes him again about 90 seconds to 2 minutes if he’s really humping it uphill. Z turns left onto Maple goes up about 100′ maybe, turns around and heads back down Maple St. heading North and runs into Armand.
Minimum time elapsed for Z after leaving Foukes to be back on Maple at that position, in changed clothes with dog, is a minimum of 5 minutes. How does Armand not see this dog walker coming back up Jackson from Spruce? Armand could easily be at Maple within 2 minutes time, Z cannot. Not following the going home, changing of clothes, walking back with dog and meeting Armand scenario.
The other problem with this scenario is Armand would be running into Foukes with gun drawn. Doesn’t it make common sense that Foukes may get a little confused, and question Armand why he has his gun out? Cause Foukes still thinks he’s looking for a robber, not a killer. Does he think killer is right there? Should they get out of their car and draw their guns also? No guns mentioned by Fouke or Armand, cause Armand has already holstered his weapon. And if he’s just starting on search for Z, he’d have his gun drawn, as he stated he did.
The second timeline where Armand has already gone to Maple St., seen and spoken with dog walker and is heading back to Washinton when he runs into Foukes at Jackson and Cherry, totally eliminates dog walker as Z. So if dog walker = Mr. X then X can’t be Z no matter how you try to fit it.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon May 10, 2010 6:45 pm
The biggest mystery/problem IMO is, WHY didn´t Fouke make sure to inform Pellisetti that he had just, less than a minute ago, encounter a white male, when Pelisetti told him that it WAS a white male suspect they were looking for???
bayarea60s, Subject: Foreigner Mon May 10, 2010 8:20 pm
So True….
You know after 41 years you would think we’d have at least been able to iron down without any doubt the movements of LE on that evening. I don’t think that’s being unreasonable.
It’s makes me wonder if all the interviewer’s to some degree get jerked around, thinking they’re getting the real scoop, but all the while the RO’s attitude really is, "I don’t need to talk to you, you’re nobody, let the detectives handle the case". And thus they become real cavalier in their answers. Cause there seems many caring people who have legitamittly interviewed the principles in the SF and yet get totally different stories from them. This has never seemed to happen in the Vallejo or LB case, but nailing down LE from SFPD actions seems like pulling teeth.
Like Mike R. stated J Dean had to speak for a while before getting a straight? answer out of Armand. What’s so hard, you’re asked a question you give your answer, done.
I also question the relationship the Patrol Officer’s had with SF detectives. Both Armand and Foukes stated they did their patrol duties and left the rest up to the experts, the SF Detectives. They both seemed to be sounding very sarcastic to me. Armand made his statement with a smirk on his face, like "I was done with my Patrol duties", so nothing more for me to do or say.
But there’s like no consistency from SFPD, well there is on some issues, like Foukes speaking with Z or not. Foukes from the beginning has been consistent with his response. Ok he didn’t speak with Z. Doesn’t really matter if he did or not I guess. But to get Armand and Foukes to agree on anything beyond that is like impossible. Something just isn’t right there. One day these LE guys won’t even be around, so the confusion that’s left will be there forever.
I just have a feeling when doing a one on one with these guys, they may just give any answer they feel like at the time. Knowing whats the worst that can happen, someone says "Hey you didn’t say that to me", "Oh you must have misunderstood me". End to that story. But if on tape, knowing you’re being recorded, a whole different story. I don’t know, but somethings not right there at all.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 2:40 am
I agree with TF, why didn’t Fouke tell anyone that they had seen the white male, and also why if he had seen him go up the steps to a private residence did they tear off in the car without speaking to anyone and head for the Presidio. Why was there no ‘scratch’ from him until the Zodiac’s letter about his encounter with them came out. I think like the Zodiac states that they spoke to him. And what’s important about it is that we apparently have a sketch and an ‘amended’ sketch that supposedly looks like the Zodiac.
He wasn’t covered in blood and they were not looking for a white guy at that time, Don Fouke could do nothing about that scenario, but once they found out who he was, it looks to me like they set off on their own trying to get him. Why not tell some one. The crux of it is I think the amended sketch doesn’t look much different apart from the change to the hair and lifting the glasses off of the eyes more to reveal more of the eyes. Frown lines and the lines between the eyes. I’ve always thought he looks as though he is frowning or peering into a car.
Also five to ten second look and he described all that he did including Welsh Ancestry from a guy with his head down and looking away from them. We should remember that all this was dealt with by their superiors once they owned up to ‘seeing him’. Fouke doesn’t have to tell anyone anything but the same story. They are in receipt of Police pensions, they are not going to jeopardize anything by telling any investigator amateur or otherwise any more than they have to. They are not our mates and ultimately don’t care what we think. It’s obvious from AP’s body language and by what he says that he is at odds with Fouke.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 7:59 am
In this case, the Police officers involved, seem to have been less then thorough in their techniques, and police work.
Fouke in the documentary when asked why he didnt report the address the man walked up to said something like, "its the Detective’s job, let them figure it out". The same can be said of one of the guys on the scene that supposedly talked with Cecilia at Berryessa. He said she gave him alot of details, and he said he didnt put them in the report because he "didnt feel they were important".
I also think there was less than stellar police work on LHR after F&J were murdered. I personally think they could have nipped it in the budd after the first murders, but made mistakes, and allowed this guy to go on to gain infamy. How many lives could have been saved if the police did what they were supposed to do? I mean, come on, Fouke & Palisetti cant even get their accounts to coincide from that night.
I know back then that cops didnt have technology and tools that they have now, but come on, how do you not give full details in a report that may be crucial to the case? Its common police training 101.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 10:07 am
I see only a couple of points of value to the whole episode:
1) The length of time Fouke and Zelms spent looking at Zodiac, and how much it affects the composite. IMHO, Fouke did contribute to the second wanted poster, and it’s probably pretty good.
2) Can the movements of Pelissetti, Fouke and Zodiac somehow determine Zodiac’s path of exit and knowledge of the area. That’s a tougher one. Zodiac, if he is to be believed, gave us a few clues in the BB letter. He says he entered the park about a block and a half from his encounter with Fouke. This would mean entering on Spruce. Perhaps after F&Z passed on him, he felt free to saunter down Jackson another block. He says the dogs were to the west of him, indicating he may have been in an eastern area of the park. He says the motorcycles were passing by in a north western direction, possibly Presideo Ave or one of the smaller streets going in that direction. My guess would be somewhere in this area, with a car parked on one of the streets to the immediate east. Just a guess though, at least it’s in the direction he was last seen, and admits, heading. No idea why the dogs would not have followed his scent.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 11:32 am
That is my take on it too Bentley. He probably saw from afar what was going on. LE got there pretty darn quick, but Zodiac had enough time to get a bit down the street. Probably hopped on Divisadero to the 101 and he was outta there!
There is no doubt Zodiac saw Fouke & Zelms. Zodiac doesn’t have to make up stories. I think he was telling the truth too. If he was pissed LE was "lying about him", then it would seem to me he was making a point of letting LE know what happened that night.
Could Zodiac have known Fouke & Zelms didn’t come forward? Why point out the goof? Why confirm it was you who police saw? Was it worth confirmation it was him to point out their f-up?
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 1:11 pm
Boy, those are some excellent questions Tahoe, nothing I’ve ever pondered. Let’s see, LE concentrated their initial search near where he was seen heading by F&Z (the JK playground), possibly an initial indicator that Z knew that F&Z knew they had "pulled a goof". The Chron article next day tells of the kid witnesses and mentions him being seen running thought the playground. The wanted poster came out a fews days later with his mug and description. The only thing I can think of at the moment is that Z felt F&Z must have realized that was him, and with him being described pretty much the way he appeared to them had nothing to lose by confirming. Still a huge admission though, with probably with more underlying subtleties than I’m thinking of.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 1:33 pm
Boy, those are some excellent questions Tahoe, nothing I’ve ever pondered. Let’s see, LE concentrated their initial search near where he was seen heading by F&Z (the JK playground), possibly an initial indicator that Z knew that F&Z knew they had "pulled a goof". The Chron article next day tells of the kid witnesses and mentions him being seen running thought the playground. The wanted poster came out a fews days later with his mug and description. The only thing I can think of at the moment is that Z felt F&Z must have realized that was him, and with him being described pretty much the way he appeared to them had nothing to lose by confirming. Still a huge admission though, with probably with more underlying subtleties than I’m thinking of.
Well, Zodiac did point this out in his Nov 9th 1969 letter :
"I look like the description passed out only when I do my thing, the rest of the time I look entirle different. I shall not tell you what my descise consists of when I kill"
Maybe that was his reason to identify himself because the composit looked SO much like him that he felt the need to tell this story in order to make som damge controle?
By the way I DO belive he used ONE kind of desquise: extra clothes and somthing to implying a belly bottom. WHY? because the slim face does NOT fit the description of a heavy set man with a bellybottom.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 3:17 pm
Does sound like damage control perhaps doesn’t it? I agree, the composite looks like someone lighter or fitter, no double chin or puffy cheeks. The only facial disguise I can guess might be the glasses. No hat, no facial hair, easy disguises. Again I do think he may have gotten the crew cut after the LB composite, maybe grown it back out some by Nov. ’69.
bayarea60s, Subject: Morf Tue May 11, 2010 5:14 pm
It wasn’t that RO Collins at LB got a bunch of details that he didn’t report, he could have always reported them later then. What Collins is asked is why he didn’t get more info of how perp looked from Cecilia. And his response was"At the time I didn’t think it important". A terrible answer I agree and I think by Collins facial expression he would agree too. But at least he was open in stating that he blew it. I think maybe, and this is just my thought, that he let his heart get in the way of his job. But under the circumstance we may have all made that decision. He knew she was in terrible shape and maybe didn’t want to push her strength level…..Again just my thought.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue May 11, 2010 5:42 pm
By the way I DO belive he used ONE kind of desquise: extra clothes and somthing to implying a belly bottom. WHY? because the slim face does NOT fit the description of a heavy set man with a bellybottom.
Mike Mageau described him as a stocky build and big head. No jacket.
I think he probably had an average to somewhat muscular build, and looked average and wore average clothes.
bayarea60s, Subject: Foukes Tue May 11, 2010 6:04 pm
I recall Foukes stating at some point that Z didn’t portray any significant physical attributes, was just normal looking, not especially threatening in any way.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
I think I pointed this out about a month or two back on the original site.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
You did WC which is why I moved this thread over because I thought you find a lot more thoughts on the question you asked in this.
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
If memory serves me, the FBI report just states an Eight year old witness had given a name in relation to the man seen that night. But the Two question’s are, who was this Eight year old, and what was the name he gave to police? It’s not stated weather this Eight year old was one of the ‘Teens’ at the party at the corner of W’ton & Cherry. It seem’s unlikely, at least to me, that he was one of the three witnesses at the party because of what the police report says. It states, quote: ‘Upon responding to the above location Officers Peda and Pelissetti found Yellow Cab No. 912 parked at the Northeast corner of Washington St. at the corner of Cherry St. The reportee, together with two other witnesses, _________ aged 14, and __________ aged 13, same address as reportee, stated that they saw the below described suspect in the front seat of the yellow cab’. So, based on that statement, the two other teen’s are mentioned by name and age, and the third, the one who reported the crime, would have to be Eight years old if he was the person to give a name. The third member of the party witnesses was older than the two mentioned above if I remember correctly, around 16.
So, question is: Who is this Eight year old? Where did he live? Where did he spot the suspect? What name did he put foreward? There’s been claims previously that say that someone reported seeing a male in dark clothes dash into the Presidio. I don’t know if this claim is correct, was ever varified, and who the claimant was.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
FYI:
A lot of the posts in the old history of this thread were made by James Dean. JDean was with the Vallejo Police Dept. And he was assigned the Zodiac Cold Case in the 70’s. I’ve spoke to him via emails & some meetings. He is very knowable on the Z case. Mike R. has also spoke to him numerous times.
Most the posts with no posters name are by JDean whom interviewed the children at the Stine Scene & so much more research. I wanted to make everyone aware, regarding these informative posts by JDean. We were lucky to get him to come to our former site & share some of his information with us.
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If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I’m sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam’s/Quote
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MODERATOR
Thanks for that Zam,
I would have changed the Author of the post but it unfortunately won’t let you change it to a member that doesn’t exist here. I’m gonna dupe this into the first post. 
“I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.“
On Tom Voigt’s site it states the teenagers at Presidio Heights said the suspect looked 25-30. Where is the official confirmation or police report they ever stated this. Where did Tom Voigt get this information from.
On Tom Voigt’s site it states the teenagers at Presidio Heights said the suspect looked 25-30. Where is the official confirmation or police report they ever stated this. Where did Tom Voigt get this information from.
The first composite says 25-30:
The revised one says 35-45:
This is what’s so frustrating….didn’t Fouke claim he never assisted in creating the sketch? Then why do we have a revised version? Maybe they changed it to match what he mentioned in his scratch? Then again, we have the possibility of other unknown witnesses. One thing that causes more questions than answers is that SFPD never released any of it’s reports about the case. SO Z was 25-45 & wore glasses,that’s all we really know
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
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http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
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Fouke’s memo is dated November 12, 1969, a full month after Stine’s murder.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html
The two composites were created October 13th and 18th, the last one was drawn three weeks before Fouke created the memo. The second composite apparently was not drawn with Fouke’s memo in mind.
The most frustrating thing about the Stine murder is the lack of available reports.
This is what’s so frustrating….didn’t Fouke claim he never assisted in creating the sketch? Then why do we have a revised version? Maybe they changed it to match what he mentioned in his scratch? Then again, we have the possibility of other unknown witnesses. One thing that causes more questions than answers is that SFPD never released any of it’s reports about the case. SO Z was 25-45 & wore glasses,that’s all we really know
I just read through this entire post. The older posts from JDean state that the first sketch took input from both the Robbins kids, and that the artist then decided it would be better to do it with just the input of the more observant one as opposed to multiple people (kids). The revision in age may have come from Fouke, but I am not sure from JDean’s account and interviews whether the sketch was actually revised per his input, or just the kids. The only thing I can think of regarding age input is that teenagers often think age 30 looks a lot older than it actually does.
I agree, Seagull – frustrating about the reports.
Could it not have been Fouke’s partner who assisted in the sketch?
Soze
