– Diane said that Eric closely followed the Stine murder on television. He told her that when he and Fouke saw a WMA they quickly decided to question him. He said that they spoke to this man "face to face!" The man was polite, calm and answered all of their questions. There was nothing suspicious about him. They then quickly left to continue their search for a BMA as had been broadcast in the APB.

Officer Zelms confessed to his wife that when they realized the man they had talked to was the Zodiac they absolutely did not know what to say or do. They understood what the full ramifications would be if it became known that San Francisco police officers had confronted but failed to capture the Zodiac Killer! She was told, in all confidence, that Fouke made the final decision to say they only drove by a WMA and he was not stopped because they were looking for a BMA.

It would seem that Fouke knew that he and Zelms had spoken to Zodiac "face to face" and he wanted to protect a rookie officer. It would be quite unthinkable that the senior officer did not know if his partner had seen the WMA as Fouke wrote in his memo and has said in some interviews. Zelms admitted to his wife in private that he cooperated with Fouke because he didn’t want to get a negative report and possibly lose his job. In light of the heavy criticism from some quarters about the failure of the SFPD to capture the Zodiac, if what had happened were to get out the effects would have been devastating.

Robert Graysmith in his book Zodiac writes, "The two patrolmen were shattered and filled with despair." In his book Zodiac Unmasked Graysmith says that detective George Balwart interviewed Fouke in the 1990s. Fouke "wasn’t real happy about being interviewed." And the sighting of Zodiac "was not the high point of his career and he didn’t want to talk about it. Who could blame him?"

Retired detective Dave Toschi is quoted as saying to Graysmith that they (SFPD) "felt that Zelms and Fouke had stopped Zodiac, and did everything we could to keep it quiet so they wouldn’t be hurt by the police commission or embarrassed." Toschi said that Fouke said, in tears, "it was the guy," and that they had both officers "do a sketch."

Former detective John Lynch, who worked the Zodiac case in Vallejo said in the same Graysmith book that "when they (Fouke and Zelms) were talking to him (Zodiac) a call came on the radio . . . to look for a . . . black man and they let this guy go . . . you can almost bet your boots the cops came out of that squad car with their guns in their hands. You’d have to." Lynch believed that they waited so long to tell the Chief because they were very upset over the incident.

The late Police Reporter and Zodiac Expert, Dave Peterson, told the author that he thought Zodiac did speak to the officers or that is what he had learned. He was the reporter that had the "scoop" on this story. The SFPD denied then, and still does to this very day, that any of it’s officers ever spoke to Zodiac.

Zelms did not indicate that he or his partner saw any blood stains on the man they questioned. This raises some questions about just how much blood was on Zodiac. Fouke did say that the man’s jacket looked "dirty" and in his 11.12.69 memo he describes the man as wearing rust colored pants. Perhaps the clothing did not show any blood stains. Then again it was night time and the officers were in a hurry.

Zelms also mentioned to his wife that Zodiac appeared quite ordinary in size and stature. He was not physically imposing enough to stand out in any way.

Diane said that privately her husband was deeply distressed about the entire matter. He carried the Zodiac composite with him, which was a good resemblance of the man he spoke to, in case he ever saw him again. He admitted to her that when he realized he had spoken to the Zodiac Killer "face to face" he became filled with fear. He realized then how close he had come to death. Young Eric Zelms did not know that the grim reaper was less than three months away. He was shot three times at around 1 AM on New Years Day 1970 and died a hero leaving a young widow, an infant son and family to grieve his passing. –

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.com/zelms_related.htm l”> https://web.archive.org/web/20070320182 … lated.html

Thanks for linking that.

-The SFPD denied then, and still does to this very day, that any of it’s officers ever spoke to Zodiac.

It appears there’s several layers of embarrassment here, that of the individual officers and that of the department (they already had egg on their face for wrongly pursuing a black suspect).

I’d read somewhere that Fouke and Zelms didn’t quite seem eye to eye on the matter. Clearly, Zelms was the rookie and deferred to Fouke’s experience. Pelissetti is on the record as saying Fouke was a respected policeman, yet Pelissetti in the Fincher DVD extra clearly wasn’t comfortable with the way in which Fouke stuck to his story.

If Zelm’s widow is right, they stopped somebody. Does anyone believe that there’s also a chance that they stopped someone totally unrelated? We’ve seen how much blood was on the shirt fragment and taxi doorframe; Zodiac would have blood on him and we know the street was well lit.

Furthermore, as I understand it neither Fouke nor Zelms contributed to the composite and merely confirmed its likeness. This irks me for some reason.

I also noticed in the DVD extra, Fouke conflates a receding hairline with a widow’s peak (he thinks they are the same thing–he says something to the effect of "a receding hairline or widow’s peak, as my parents used to call it"). None of this fills me with confidence. It just throws up more questions on my part. Cops lie, what’s new?

Please feel free to correct me here.

I think there’s little doubt that Zodiac was stopped and spoken to that day, if for no other reason than the responding officer’s timelines don’t match without a delay in response from Foulke and Zelms to Washinton & Cherry.

Richard Grinnell does a marvelous job fleshing this out on his website.

Thanks Chaucer, Richard’s website was my next port of call. His timeline evaluations are usually very helpful.

Toschi thinks they stopped someone and that’s good enough for me.

Thank you all for your responses. I agree it makes sense that he two officers did indeed stop the "man who would be Z" that night.
My critical self nags me that there is no provenance for interview where the Widow Zelm imparts these details. No confirmation assurance on it all. I have never seen a solid attribution to it.
I read these details through the filters of

So-and-so heard from Johnny Gumshoe… or, So-and-so knew her friend Sally Forth…

, which makes me wonder if the information itself is reliable. An unscrupulous person could invent such a story to sweeten the myth.
I am not claiming the information is false. I just have never seen or read of Widow Zelm being interviewed by anyone, anywhere first hand. If so, who and when?

Thanks Chaucer, Richard’s website was my next port of call. His timeline evaluations are usually very helpful.

Toschi thinks they stopped someone and that’s good enough for me.

I wouldn’t put too much stock into statements from Toschi. I know he’s treated like a legend with many on the Zodiac case, but there’s a fair bit of circumstantial evidence that he misled – either accidentally or on purpose – many amateur researchers on the case.

It’s merely my opinion that anything he says regarding the case should be greeted with a grain of salt. Again, many here will STRONGLY disagree with this, but I believe it so.

Due to the high stakes, its seems reputations were on the line. Fouke was somewhat at the bottom of the pile, yet there was also reputation management from Capt. Martin Lee who seemed inclined to spin things in the press whenever necessary. Cognitive bias around race was clearly an issue here; whether its Fouke positively profiling the suspect on Jackson or the SFPD as an institution. This was a period when ‘race relations’ were at an all time low. There was a perverse incentive to cover up at many levels, creating the opportunity for Zodiac make great mischief.

Under such circumstances its likely that Fouke’s superiors didn’t want to question his story too closely once the significance of the event emerged, since it was a further can of worms. Zelms being killed in the line of duty seals the deal, because no one would want to impugn the reputation of dead police office and colleague.

I think there’s little doubt that Zodiac was stopped and spoken to that day, if for no other reason than the responding officer’s timelines don’t match without a delay in response from Foulke and Zelms to Washinton & Cherry.

This was examined countless times when I lived in San Francisco and there can simply be no firm conclusion reached.

It comes down to this: Unless everyone had synchronized watches down to the second — which they didn’t — (let’s pretend all of them had at least the hour and minutes correct) — there could still be a 59-second discrepancy among the responders, well enough time for Fouke and Zelms to slow to a stop, ask the stranger if he had seen anything suspicious, and then take off back up to speed. Or, that discrepancy could show there wasn’t enough time for such a stop, it really just depends on how one wants to manipulate the various "time" elements.

I think there’s little doubt that Zodiac was stopped and spoken to that day, if for no other reason than the responding officer’s timelines don’t match without a delay in response from Foulke and Zelms to Washinton & Cherry.

This was examined countless times when I lived in San Francisco and there can simply be no firm conclusion reached.

It comes down to this: Unless everyone had synchronized watches down to the second — which they didn’t — (let’s pretend all of them had at least the hour and minutes correct) — there could still be a 59-second discrepancy among the responders, well enough time for Fouke and Zelms to slow to a stop, ask the stranger if he had seen anything suspicious, and then take off back up to speed. Or, that discrepancy could show there wasn’t enough time for such a stop, it really just depends on how one wants to manipulate the various "time" elements.

I’d be interested to hear your opinion on this Tom, do you think they stopped him or not ?

There’s nothing far-fetched in her story and no seeming motive for her to lie and little possibility of being mistaken on the large points.

I think it’s very likely Fouke & Zelms did stop and speak briefly to Z.

1. We have Officer Pelissetti stating that Fouke told him they did stop and speak to him.
2. Apparently Mrs. Zelms statement about the encounter is from a good source.
3. Fouke contradicts himself in video interviews in 1987 and 2007.
4. Zodiac writes in his letter "two cops pulled a goof about 3 minutes after I left the crime scene"

Add all this up and you have to come to the conclusion that Fouke & Zelms stopped and spoke to Z.

…
2. Apparently Mrs. Zelms statement about the encounter is from a good source.

Thanks Monarch. This is the area I roll over in my head the most. The ultimate source for the information seems to be a website making a claim. Unless I missed something entirely? Is/was that site run by a reputable investigator?

Many thanks for everyone’s contributions!

…
2. Apparently Mrs. Zelms statement about the encounter is from a good source.

Thanks Monarch. This is the area I roll over in my head the most. The ultimate source for the information seems to be a website making a claim. Unless I missed something entirely? Is/was that site run by a reputable investigator?

Many thanks for everyone’s contributions!

I can’t recall the source of Mrs. Zelms’ statement I just remember reading it’s from a respected Zodiac researcher.

Maybe Morf or Tom V. or someone who remembers the source of Mrs. Zelms claim can provide more details ?

Howard Davis.