One thing I neglected to mention:

There have been rumors that two letters were intercepted by mail carriers at the mailbox. These two locations were rumored to be at Van Ness & Union and Taraval & 23rd St. If that were the case, these letters would not have postmarks. However, ALL genuine Zodiac letters had postmarks. Moreover, none of the postmarks that we examined were from anywhere near these two locations.

This information seems to have originated from a 45th anniversary video on Tom Voigt’s site. I’m hoping Tom jumps in and can fill in some blanks for us regarding this information.

I’m hoping that Cragle can post a map, so that we can visualize this. (He seems to be much more adept with graphics than I am.) I’m not sure what conclusions we can draw from this info, but I’m eager to hear everyone’s ideas.

Here we are.

I don’t want this thread to spill into a discussion of PsOI. It should remain (in my opinion) a discussion of observations derived from the map and associated info. I say that as a reminder to myself as much as anybody else, because that’s my flaw.

What I see is travelling from the east side of the bay ACROSS I80 bridge and heading toward, or past, the Presidio area.

I also see travelling DOWN 101 toward SF State U.

Either 1) Z had a connection to these two areas, or 2) he had time and energy to wake up early or go home late and post these letters somewhere entirely foreign to him. Can anyone think or any other alternatives?

Does anyone see any other locations that are prominent in those areas?

This pattern makes me wonder if Z was a student at SFSU who worked part-time or sought medical treatment at Letterman Army Hospital.

I’m from a rural part of the world, so the time and spatial characteristics of SF befuddle me. Is this pattern one large commute?

I appreciate the work everyone has put into this. I contributed about 1%, at best. This is some of the most important stuff I’ve seen in a long while.

I don’t want this thread to spill into a discussion of PsOI. It should remain (in my opinion) a discussion of observations derived from the map and associated info.

Agreed. I personally don’t have a POI, and I hope people can take the info presented and process it objectively without filtering through their POI lens.

What I see is travelling from the east side of the bay ACROSS I80 bridge and heading toward, or past, the Presidio area.

I also see travelling DOWN 101 toward SF State U.

I think this is certainly possible. However, I can also see him coming across the Golden Gate into Richmond and then down 19th Ave. to Balboa Terrace.

Either 1) Z had a connection to these two areas, or 2) he had time and energy to wake up early or go home late and post these letters somewhere entirely foreign to him. Can anyone think or any other alternatives?

Does anyone see any other locations that are prominent in those areas?

I think he definitely chose these locations for a reason. It clearly wasn’t random. Was it work-related? Personal/family? Or just ease of travel?

I appreciate the work everyone has put into this. I contributed about 1%, at best. This is some of the most important stuff I’ve seen in a long while.

Far more than 1%. I think this is a great example of how motivated people with no egos or agenda can work together to find answers. I’d hesitate calling it a "break in the case", but it’s certainly valuable.

I’ve been following all of this with much excitement! I think we shouldn’t rule out the possibility that San Francisco wasn’t Zodiac’s home or destination, but a way-point between the two. This could help to explain the proximity of the drop-offs to major thoroughfares.

(A lot of wild speculation follows. Hear me out.)

Newspaper TV guides from San Bernardino, Santa Maria, Long Beach, Los Angeles, and Redlands show the Martyn-Green-as-Ko-Ko version of The Mikado playing at 2:00 A.M. on the morning of July 24, 1970 on channel 11, which was broadcast out of Los Angeles. Later this day, the Zodiac would send the Kathleen Johns letter from San Francisco. This letter contains his first reference to a "little list."

I don’t know how often this old movie was broadcast (a quick search I did shows 3 times in 1970 in California, although not all newspapers are indexed), but it does seem like an interesting coincidence. I could imagine him up late watching TV in a hotel room in southern CA, writing the Kathleen Johns letter, and stopping off in San Francisco to mail it en route to his home in the 707 area code. It was postmarked in the afternoon, which would have given him enough time to make the drive.

Whether or not you buy the above story, I think we should leave open the possibility that the Zodiac made somewhat regular trips between the "North Bay area" and other parts of California for work (or whatever other reason), and used this as an opportunity to write and drop off letters at locations other than his home. This could also help to explain some of the stranger drop-off locations, like Pleasanton, which you’d pass through if you were traveling to e.g. Los Angeles from e.g. Vallejo. (Maybe he sent that letter to the LA Times so he could grab a copy when he arrived.)

I don’t know how often this old movie was broadcast (a quick search I did shows 3 times in 1970 in California, although not all newspapers are indexed), but it does seem like an interesting coincidence. I could imagine him up late watching TV in a hotel room in southern CA, writing the Kathleen Johns letter, and stopping off in San Francisco to mail it en route to his home in the 707 area code. It was postmarked in the afternoon, which would have given him enough time to make the drive.

Makes sense that a late night movie would inspire the random weirdness in the creep’s letter.

Regarding Los Angeles and other southern points – why drive all the way to north to deliver the letters? Even if you were going to drive to SF from LA, why go to the most northern extremity of SF? Why not just mail it from Daly City or something?

The Mikado idea is interesting. I wonder if it was shown anywhere in the Bay Area around that time? Also, is the Martyn Green "Little List" song a different version from Marx’s?

Regarding Los Angeles and other southern points – why drive all the way to north to deliver the letters? Even if you were going to drive to SF from LA, why go to the most northern extremity of SF? Why not just mail it from Daly City or something?

Good question. Seems to me like he wanted to be linked to San Francisco, maybe because it gave him more press, maybe because there were more people to terrorize. He must’ve known that people were looking at his postmarks, right?

The Mikado idea is interesting. I wonder if it was shown anywhere in the Bay Area around that time? Also, is the Martyn Green "Little List" song a different version from Marx’s?

It would be good to look into whether it was showing in the Bay Area. And yes, the Martyn Green version is different in that it doesn’t have the lines corresponding to "There’s a banjo seranader and the others of his race and the piano orginast I got him on the list. All people who eat pepermint and phomphit in your face, they would never be missed They would never be missed." So the Zodiac was definitely listening to/remembering the Marx version when he wrote the longer Little List letter a few days later. I should note that there are also some small things that are found in both the Z version and the Green version, but not in the Marx version:

"for it really doesn’t matter…" (Marx version)
"but it really doesn’t matter…" (Green version and Z version)

"All persons who are shaking hands…" (Marx version)
"All people who are shakeing hands…" (Green version and Z version)

"what-do-ya-call-it…" (Marx version)
"whatchamacallit…" (Green version and Z version)

Actually, the source that I’m looking at ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th4c3TPPYwA ) cuts out around the peppermint line, so maybe that line actually is in the Green version? If that were the case, I’d say that the Green version is a slightly better fit for the letter.

Ah, I just realized that that video is from the TV show Omnibus, and not from the 1939 movie.

Yo yo yo – managed to find a list of mental health outpatient clinics in San Fran in 1966 and wouldn’t you know these possible drop off locations have a pretty similar pattern to where they were located?

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED012983.pdf

Pg 32-33 of the pdf

Regarding Los Angeles and other southern points – why drive all the way to north to deliver the letters? Even if you were going to drive to SF from LA, why go to the most northern extremity of SF? Why not just mail it from Daly City or something?

The Mikado idea is interesting. I wonder if it was shown anywhere in the Bay Area around that time? Also, is the Martyn Green "Little List" song a different version from Marx’s?

Great work Chaucer – great presentation using visuals. For me, the 1974 letters could skew the interpretation, with the S.L.A letter not Zodiac and the remaining three very questionable (so I’m glad you’ve left some out). The Zodiac Killer overwhelming mailed his letters from San Francisco, that could give us pause for thought regarding the Los Angeles, San Mateo/Clara, San Rafael and Eureka communications. Even the March 13th 1971 letter from Pleasanton could be challenged. Regardless, you’re doing a fantastic job.

Great work Chaucer – great presentation using visuals. For me, the 1974 letters could skew the interpretation, with the S.L.A letter not Zodiac and the remaining three very questionable (so I’m glad you’ve left some out). The Zodiac Killer overwhelming mailed his letters from San Francisco, that could give us pause for thought regarding the Los Angeles, San Mateo/Clara, San Rafael and Eureka communications. Even the March 13th 1971 letter from Pleasanton could be challenged. Regardless, you’re doing a fantastic job.

The visuals were all Cragle. I’m happy to have opened up a fresh line of inquiry, but many others including you, have done the heavy lifting.

I’d really like to learn more about the neighborhood "hot spots" and see if we can identify any relationships and commonalities that link them somehow.

I agree. I think the letters from 1974 are a bit dubious and the fact that they were mailed from way outside SF strengthens that belief for me.

I’m still hoping Tom V. can provide some more info/context regarding the two places he said the letters were intercepted at the mailbox.

Great work so far.

We need a map with every location that we can confirm Zodiac was at with the act and date. Can we do this with Google Maps?

Great work so far.

We need a map with every location that we can confirm Zodiac was at with the act and date. Can we do this with Google Maps?

I have done this with Google Maps, but I don’t know how to upload it here. Any techies want to give me a tutorial? lol