I again reiterate that while Ross certainly is a decent suspect in the CJB murder, there is absolutely zero evidence of Ross being associated with any of the Z killings. No one can place him anywhere near Vallejo or SF after Riverside.

1doctor: I don’t often post on this thread anymore because pretty much all facts and theories have been beaten to death many times over. But I disagree with what you are saying. Evidence can take different forms. There are several points of circumstantial evidence that Ross was Zodiac. See the pros and cons thread and especially the information that the librarian provided.

Also, this evidence supports the thinking that Ross could have been Zodiac:

Really nothing more needs to be said about the resemblance. Anyone who denies the almost exact resemblance is just being a naysayer for the sake of being a naysayer and for no other reason. And people who try to argue that it would be easy to find an equal match are not supporting their arguments with any example. It’s just a bunch of B.S. Ross looks almost exactly like the Stine sketch, and unless Ross had a twin brother that we don’t know about, he is the only POI who looks as much like the sketch as he does.

I completely agree with you that no evidence putting Ross in SF or Vallejo is a major problem.

Smokie

Anyone who denies the almost exact resemblance is just being a naysayer for the sake of being a naysayer and for no other reason.

By no means am I asserting that. I’m just saying that the biggest evidence that we need is Ross being in those areas at the time.

And while I’m not asserting this, here’s another technicality that needs to be factored in here. The Stine composite may not be accurate. Fouke saw him from a distance and late at night. The teenagers saw him from an even further distance at night. According to Z, he only looked like the composite when he was committing his crimes. Another point of note, the LB witnesses described him as a completely different person. LB witnesses and Bryan Hartnell said he had Brown hair. Mageau (Who in fairness, also saw him at night with a bright light in his face, but saw him from an arms reach distance) said he had light brown curly hair. If we were to listen to these couple of witnesses, then what do we make of that?

However, as far as the Stine composite goes, Ross is, by far, the winner-winner chicken dinner.

But then again, that’s all the complexities in this case. There almost is no solid, 100% concrete facts.

Doc1, what I don’t understand is how you discount Ross based on the supposition that he was not around San Francisco or that area of California during the Zodiac murders (although we do know he died in Santa Cruz which actually ain’t very far from San Fran. Ross’s brother lived in Berkeley). I take issue with this as we do not know at all where exactly Ross was during the murders. He could have been in San Fran or Vallejo or maybe he was not. No one knows for sure where Ross was, certainly not me and certainly not you.

So I ask, are you still positive that Ross was NOT around the San Fran or Bay Area during the Zodiac murders? Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

If Paul_Avery sourced his info correctly in his video I watched, Ross may have lived at the Y in SF that was 5 blocks from where the Stine Murder occurred. If true and not just a theory based on the fact that Ross stayed often at the Y in Riverside, then this is huge circumstancially and puts Ross in SF living near one of the crime scenes.

Stine composite is (more than likely give or take) arguably the most accurate (doc has a point though)…the others were from victims who suffered significant trauma..not so with stine composite..too bad we can not run ross photo by kj.. now if u can ever prove after cjb ross was committed for a few years and released spring 68 then i am on board (with greater z theory linking ross and not just cjb link to ross)

Stine composite is (more than likely give or take) arguably the most accurate (doc has a point though)…the others were from victims who suffered significant trauma..not so with stine composite..too bad we can not run ross photo by kj.. now if u can ever prove after cjb ross was committed for a few years and released spring 68 then i am on board (with greater z theory linking ross and not just cjb link to ross)

We don’t know if Johns was a real Z victim.

If Paul_Avery sourced his info correctly in his video I watched, Ross may have lived at the Y in SF that was 5 blocks from where the Stine Murder occurred. If true and not just a theory based on the fact that Ross stayed often at the Y in Riverside, then this is huge circumstancially and puts Ross in SF living near one of the crime scenes.

Not sure where Paul got that info from, I think it’s just speculation about the YMCA and the wedding, although it seems likely that Ross & Cheri could both be there

If Paul_Avery sourced his info correctly in his video I watched, Ross may have lived at the Y in SF that was 5 blocks from where the Stine Murder occurred. If true and not just a theory based on the fact that Ross stayed often at the Y in Riverside, then this is huge circumstancially and puts Ross in SF living near one of the crime scenes.

Not sure where Paul got that info from, I think it’s just speculation about the YMCA and the wedding, although it seems likely that Ross & Cheri could both be there

I could see Ross feeling comfortable staying at the Y quite often. I agree with Pink Panther that we can’t rule Ross out because we have nothing to prove he was ever in the right areas at the right times. Like she said, we don’t know his movements. The guy probably had very few friends and probably could have gone to a lot of these areas without being recognized.

Stine composite is (more than likely give or take) arguably the most accurate (doc has a point though)…the others were from victims who suffered significant trauma..not so with stine composite..too bad we can not run ross photo by kj.. now if u can ever prove after cjb ross was committed for a few years and released spring 68 then i am on board (with greater z theory linking ross and not just cjb link to ross)

We don’t know if Johns was a real Z victim.

No we dont..kinda irks me we have no definitive answer

Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

But on general principle it surely must be the other way around – no? I can’t document that my grandfather was not in the Vallejo area on July 4th 1969. But nobody in his right mind would consider this an indication that he was in the area.

The onus must be on the investigators/researchers/theorists to document that there is a valid connection – a valid proximity, if you will – to the relevant areas/crime scenes.

Yes Norse we need to put Ross there to try and make a better case that he could be connected geographically. My point was simply that NO ONE can confirm nor deny where Ross was – so anyone saying with complete certainty that he without a doubt WAS or WAS NOT in SF during the Zodiac murders confuses me. I don’t know how anyone could come to an absolute conclusion of his potential involvement based upon his geographic location at the time of the murders when no one knows his location or movements. Like I said, no one could prove he was there and no one could prove he was not. I’m not sure if this point was lost on you when you read my response to Doc?

Anyway obviously it just builds a better case for Ross if we can establish he was living near the crime scenes, but like I said many times before unless there is physical evidence tying Ross to the crimes we still will be wondering if he could be Z no matter how circumstancial his involvement seems to have been (and we would need DNA or prints for this likely and well Ross is ashes to ashes now so we need his brother to consent to submitting his DNA Bc I doubt any of Ross’s toothbrushes are still sitting around).

Well, he has to be placed in SF area eventually, yes. He also needs to be shown that he was not institutionalized at the time. But I would point out that if his brother suspected his involvement, then he did not consider distance or institutionalization to be impediments.

i agree wholly Nick – if Ross’s brother seems to believe he may have been capable of frequenting the Bay Area that is very compelling, but it’s still not concrete enough to establish a documented location for Ross on the days of the murders. I have said before and I will say again that one need not live in the Bay Area proper to commit these murders. It could have been someone who stayed an hour or so from SF who knows. Suppositions that the Zodiac must have resided in San Francisco confuse me being that I’m from CA and I know how people just up and make trips around here all the time. My sig other jumped in the car and drove up to Santa Cruz and decided to continue on up to SF for the heck of it 2 weeks ago – just Bc he was bored. Drove from Riverside up there. I agree that If Ross was institutionalized/incarcerated during the crimes that would be an excellent rule out.

Please provide documentation of him being anywhere (addresses/institutions/etc) during the time of the Zodiac murders and I will give you a feather for your sleuth hat.

But on general principle it surely must be the other way around – no? I can’t document that my grandfather was not in the Vallejo area on July 4th 1969. But nobody in his right mind would consider this an indication that he was in the area.

The onus must be on the investigators/researchers/theorists to document that there is a valid connection – a valid proximity, if you will – to the relevant areas/crime scenes.

I guess you are both right. People say Ross is not a valid suspect because you can not place him in Vallejo,Napa, SF,etc. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t there. On the other hand, to prove he could be Z, he must be linked to that area. That’s where we are stuck with him. A promising Suspect that matches the Z sketch and is linked to the RCC library where Zodiac is linked to, yet we can not verify his movements or activity during the Z years. I wish his Brother Tim was still alive. he had to have reasons for suspecting Ross of being Z

I’m not sure if this point was lost on you when you read my response to Doc?

Yeah, probably was – many points are lost on me, so that’s very likely.

However, you seemingly demanded documentation (from another poster) that Ross was NOT in the relevant areas at the relevant times. And my point was that this is different from demanding documentation that he WAS.

Proving non-existence isn’t necessary. That was my point – only that. I agree, of course, that we simply don’t know where the hell he was – and until we do, we’re a bit stuck (as morf says above).

I’m not sure if this point was lost on you when you read my response to Doc?

Yeah, probably was – many points are lost on me, so that’s very likely.

However, you seemingly demanded documentation (from another poster) that Ross was NOT in the relevant areas at the relevant times. And my point was that this is different from demanding documentation that he WAS.

Proving non-existence isn’t necessary. That was my point – only that. I agree, of course, that we simply don’t know where the hell he was – and until we do, we’re a bit stuck (as morf says above).

Lol I did not demand that He provide documentation. That’s silly. I said if he could track down documentation of Ross’s whereabouts (in general) during the time of the Zodiac murders I would give him a feather for his sleuth hat. I didn’t say if he could prove Ross was NOT in the areas in all actuality – just rhetorical point that again no one can prove either way if he was or was not near the crime scenes – yet – unless someone finds info and that would be great!!! In fact, and to belabor my point, I’ve said time and time again that no one can establish whether he was or wasn’t near the crimescenes – no one knows. I just wish we could figure out where he was even if it’s in general to put the debates to rest and rule him out if he is indeed innocent. Again I’m not sure you initially followed my rhetoric but that’s fine – I was responding to Doc1 assertions that Ross should not be looked at as closely as a POI because we can’t confirm he was around the crimescenes/SF. My point was that we also cannot confirm that he was not near the crime scenes. I think that’s where things got confusing maybe. My apologies if I didn’t dictate my point properly. Maybe I’m not understanding you, either way – apologies. Anyways, handwriting… Lol

I’m gonna try my best to see when I go to RCC if any handwriting is around for Ross. Not sure how I could ever possibly find this.