Hey morf,

Do you think that there should be a special thread for the RCC library?

Smokie

Not sure, what do you guys think? If so, should it be in the Cheri Jo Bates section?

Well, I think that Pink’s research and findings could be in a Ross/ RCC library thread because I noticed that it is happening now in the Pros and Conds thread. I don’t know if you can move posts from one thread to another. Either way, I will be reading it wherever it is found and very appreciative of Pink’s efforts.

Smokie

I will make a thread called, ‘ROSS & THE RCC LIBRARY"

Just to add to the height discussion in the other thread:

To put it in perspective, the average US male Caucasian is about 5’10. Might have been slightly shorter in 1969, certainly not taller.

Ross was a tall man, considerably taller than the average. According to the teens, who observed him upright, walking away from the scene (having the opportunity to compare him to the height of the cab too, one could add, but I’m not sure if they actually did that), Z was slightly shorter than average. If he was, in fact, considerably taller than average, they were completely off with their estimate – not just a little. They mistook a shortish/average man for a tall one. As did Mageau, whose height estimate matches that of the teens nicely. Bryan is seemingly not too sure how tall the attacker actually was, so he’s more problematic, but there is nothing in his testimony which positively contradicts MM/the teens (his lowest estimate is 5’8, his highest 6’2).

It’s hard to take the height descriptions as anything but a "con". Might not be a deal breaker, but it certainly isn’t a "pro".

Just to add to the height discussion in the other thread:

To put it in perspective, the average US male Caucasian is about 5’10. Might have been slightly shorter in 1969, certainly not taller.

Ross was a tall man, considerably taller than the average. According to the teens, who observed him upright, walking away from the scene (having the opportunity to compare him to the height of the cab too, one could add, but I’m not sure if they actually did that), Z was slightly shorter than average. If he was, in fact, considerably taller than average, they were completely off with their estimate – not just a little. They mistook a shortish/average man for a tall one. As did Mageau, whose height estimate matches that of the teens nicely. Bryan is seemingly not too sure how tall the attacker actually was, so he’s more problematic, but there is nothing in his testimony which positively contradicts MM/the teens (his lowest estimate is 5’8, his highest 6’2).

It’s hard to take the height descriptions as anything but a "con". Might not be a deal breaker, but it certainly isn’t a "pro".

Agree completely Norse.
And concerning Bryan Hartnell’s (and Cecilia Shepard’s alleged) Zodiac height estimate, those estimates are IMHO totally useless due to that Zodiac was wearing that paperbag-shaped (BH’s statement that it had shape as a black paperbag) hood which IMHO made it totally impossible for them to make a credible estimate of Zodiac’s actual height, due to that the paperbag-shaped hood was probably higher than Zodiacs own head, in any case none knows if it was 2 cm higher or maybe even up to 15 cm higher.

Agree completely Norse.
And concerning Bryan Hartnell’s (and Cecilia Shepard’s alleged) Zodiac height estimate, those estimates are IMHO totally useless due to that Zodiac was wearing that paperbag-shaped (BH’s statement that it had shape as a black paperbag) hood which IMHO made it totally impossible for them to make a credible estimate of Zodiac’s actual height, due to that the paperbag-shaped hood was probably higher than Zodiacs own head, in any case none knows if it was 2 cm higher or maybe even up to 15 cm higher.

Yes, the hood wouldn’t have made it any easier to judge his height, that’s for sure.

FWIW this is what Bryan says in the interview with Robertson (the relevant parts about height and weight):

BH: And I don’t know how tall he was. Maybe 5-8, or maybe 5-10, 6 feet, somewhere in there.

[Then adds that he’s a poor judge of height.]

(…)

JR: Now was he as heavy as I am?

BH: Well, I can’t say ’cause he wasn’t wearing those type of clothes [not a suit, like R, but sloppy clothes, making it harder to estimate body type] (…) How tall are you?

JR: I’m about five eleven.

BH: [States again that he was sloppily dressed]. He could be about the same. It’s hard to say. He was so sloppily dressed.

Funny thing is BH seems to be the only person who gave a detailed description of height. And he WAS standing right next to him… The only victim in fact to do so. I hardly think BH’s description was useless. He seemed to really try to understand this suspect and went as far as trying to look at th hair color inside the hood etc. The average height was probably 5’8" back then you think? Then suffice to say that the other kids who didn’t give a detailed description estimated his height according to the norm. Even BH says he was dressed sloppy which made it hard to tell his height. For me anyhow height is not a rule out – that is a common thing for people to screw up. And 6’0"-6’2" doesnt a giant make, that coupled with the unique body type of the wide frame could make someone appear a few inches shorter. Besides, height is the first thing that people screw up on when giving a description typically bc again, where was the victim in relation to the suspect? Uphill? Downhill? Was the victim unusually shorter or taller than the average person (like BH) and might this skew their perspective? Was the suspect known to slouch (as was described by Fouke and many others?). How many inches shorter can someone seem if they slouch when they walk? Sure Ross is around 6 feet when standing up straight to get a proper measurement for drivers license/doctor, but if he slouched (as Z was known to do) this could make him appear inches shorter. BTW Fouke seemed to think the suspect,even when slouching with his head down and walking, was closer to 5’10".

We’re there other kids at the PS scene that didn’t see him from a tiny window way up high? What other witnesses were there? They also thought he was black fwiw

And besides, maybe Z (Ross) had an accomplice in George Edward Gill which could account for the varying description. After reading about Gill I have to admit my hinky meter went baboom! Lol

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting: That the kids and MM simply assumed he was of average height because they didn’t see him clearly?

The reason we know exactly what BH said is that we have a transcript of the Robertson interview, we don’t have that for Mageau or the kids.

The kids went downstairs and observed Z from a first floor window – and the oldest of them even ventured outside and watched him walk towards Jackson St. How do you know the upstairs window was tiny, by the way? They were in the living room when they became aware that something was happening outside.

BH says the sloppy clothes made it hard to estimate his weight, not his height (but he does say that he’s generally a poor judge of height, being so very tall himself).

Lastly, the kids did not think Z was black. Give them some credit. They provided the info for the composite. If they thought he was black, I’m pretty sure they would have told Pelissetti so, and subsequently the sketch artist. The NMA/WMA mix-up was due to a dispatcher not being properly awake on the job. The very reason why Fouke went “%&**, I just passed the guy,” was that the kids informed Pelissetti that Z was NOT black, hence clearing up the misunderstanding.

One more thing: If those kids couldn’t even guesstimate properly how tall the man was – or catch whether he was black or white – what does that say about the composite? The one Ross is a dead ringer for?

Who’s composites are these and description of Z as being around 5’10"? Was this Fouke recounting info or Graysmith doing his crap?

I’ve seen the house. I had been told by many people online they were looking out the third story tiny window, but of course with anything in this case it could have been a misunderstanding on their part. Either way, those houses are built up on high foundations and are on rolling hills. To make an accurate description of height in San Fran seems difficult. Additionally, Fouke’s description is the one im most interested in as he was trained to notice a person’s physical stats as well as wasnt under emotional duress while profiling Z.

The Kids never said that Z was black. It was an error broadcast by the dispatcher.

If you are sitting in a car looking up at a Suspect, (Fouke or Mageau)do you really have the best perspective to guess a height? Maybe not, but it would not stop you from giving a good description of a face, or specifics about a hairline on the Guy. Hartnell said he was a poor judge of height. The mystery man seen by the Girl, who may have been Z(I don’t think he looked like the Stine sketch at all,or like Ross)was described as being as tall as 6ft2, 1" different than Ross. Again, I don’t think the mystery Guy looks like Ross or the SFPD sketch of Z, but he certainly may have been Z.

More fits with Ross than doesn’t, so I am willing to look past the height issue until Ross can be ruled out in another way

Who’s composites are these and description of Z as being around 5’10"? Was this Fouke recounting info or Graysmith doing his crap?

I’ve seen the house. I had been told by many people online they were looking out the third story tiny window, but of course with anything in this case it could have been a misunderstanding on their part. Either way, those houses are built up on high foundations and are on rolling hills. To make an accurate description of height in San Fran seems difficult. Additionally, Fouke’s description is the one im most interested in as he was trained to notice a person’s physical stats as well as wasnt under emotional duress while profiling Z.

I think those sketches are Sandy’s. Sandy is a long time Member here and on Zodiackiller.com

One more thing: If those kids couldn’t even guesstimate properly how tall the man was – or catch whether he was black or white – what does that say about the composite? The one Ross is a dead ringer for?

I’ll maintain once again that I’m not sure Z acted alone. There may be multiple people claiming to be Z as there were different accounts of how he looked. I think two victims didn’t even mention him wearing glasses right? He says he changed up his appearance so that no one could catch him, but could he just have meant that Zodiac "works through" more than just one person and makes his appearance through multiple people?

I like this topic in relation to Ross because we need to delve into it. I’m about to give up on the Ross connection bc yeah the height thing is varying too much. Sorry guys it is seeming to be a BS lead simply bc of his height despite all other circumstancial evidence seemingly tying Ross to SOMETHING here. Wishful thinking on my part. Real sad.

Plus, I haven’t even had coffee yet.

Peace.

The Kids never said that Z was black. It was an error broadcast by the dispatcher.

If you are sitting in a car looking up at a Suspect, (Fouke or Mageau)do you really have the best perspective to guess a height? Maybe not, but it would not stop you from giving a good description of a face, or specifics about a hairline on the Guy. Hartnell said he was a poor judge of height. The mystery man seen by the Girl, who may have been Z(I don’t think he looked like the Stine sketch at all,or like Ross)was described as being as tall as 6ft2, 1" different than Ross. Again, I don’t think the mystery Guy looks like Ross or the SFPD sketch of Z, but he certainly may have been Z.

More fits with Ross than doesn’t, so I am willing to look past the height issue until Ross can be ruled out in another way

So glad you refreshed me on this. Was about to give up on Ross just based off height.

But if one takes Fouke’s statement into consideration how do we account for weight? 180-200 lbs?

As it has been mentioned, this man was a trained professional and while they too are not error proof, a hundred pounds or more is a lot to be off about.

One more thing: If those kids couldn’t even guesstimate properly how tall the man was – or catch whether he was black or white – what does that say about the composite? The one Ross is a dead ringer for?

I’ll maintain once again that I’m not sure Z acted alone. There may be multiple people claiming to be Z as there were different accounts of how he looked. I think two victims didn’t even mention him wearing glasses right? He says he changed up his appearance so that no one could catch him, but could he just have meant that Zodiac "works through" more than just one person and makes his appearance through multiple people?

I like this topic in relation to Ross because we need to delve into it. I’m about to give up on the Ross connection bc yeah the height thing is varying too much. Sorry guys it is seeming to be a BS lead simply bc of his height despite all other circumstancial evidence seemingly tying Ross to SOMETHING here. Wishful thinking on my part. Real sad.

Plus, I haven’t even had coffee yet.

Peace.

That would be premature, hope you don’t give up so easily. If you look at everything else Ross offers(identical to Sketch, in the RCC Library, Knew Cheri Bates, writing similarity etc)it’s all pretty good stuff worth following up on. This is the ‘pros & cons’ section of Ross as Zodiac, so you must expect some criticism if you are going to support a Suspect as being Zodiac.