I don’t know what happened for sure regarding the sketch, but one major thing that changed is the addition of the widow’s peak hairline as witnessed by Fouke. I think it’s safe to say, that based on the sketch and Fouke being gung ho about the Widow’s peak, that Z had a widow’s peak, and was wearing glasses when witnessed. Anything else seems to be up for debate.For what it’s worth, I mailed copies of Ross’s photos to each of the Kids that saw Z, and simply asked if they could say simply YES or NO as to whether Ross could have been the Guy they saw. Not one of them even replied.

PP: Nobody knows exactly who talked to Fouke. But his memo was written a month after the Z encounter, so it doesn’t pertain directly to the sketch no matter how you look at it.

The general consensus is that the memo was written after Z taunted the police about having talked to them on the night. Someone in the department wanted it on record that this was a lie on Z’s part, hence the memo.

I don’t know what happened for sure regarding the sketch, but one major thing that changed is the addition of the widow’s peak hairline as witnessed by Fouke. I think it’s safe to say, that based on the sketch and Fouke being gung ho about the Widow’s peak, that Z had a widow’s peak, and was wearing glasses when witnessed. Anything else seems to be up for debate.

Good point! It’s about what Fouke was INTENT or hung ho in getting across with the description. The barrel chest, glasses, hair, widows peak, lumbering gait, odd pants seem to be defining features in Fouke’s account that coincide with Ross. The actual test the officer did to see how much the killer weighed in comparison to his own weight (210 lbs) showed the suspect was over 200lbs as the print sunk deeper than the officers. How much more than 210 we don’t know exactly, but I would think it would have to be significant to notice a difference. And yes height can vary based upon the perspective of the victim/witness IMO. Still the height difference between Ross and Z annoys me and I can’t ignore that fact. I’ll have to just get over it. I know often times height is a factor that varies by accounts in many investigations.

PP: Nobody knows exactly who talked to Fouke. But his memo was written a month after the Z encounter, so it doesn’t pertain directly to the sketch no matter how you look at it.

The general consensus is that the memo was written after Z taunted the police about having talked to them on the night. Someone in the department wanted it on record that this was a lie on Z’s part, hence the memo.

Thanks Norse! Don’t know what I would do without you guys. Probably run around in circles just smashing stuff.

So was it a lie on Z’s part? Wow I did not know that either! I thought he legitimately spoke to one for a second. So Fouke’s account is merely an afterthought? What made him so sure it was Z? I’m going to PM you Norse if you don’t mind. I don’t want to booger up Ross’s thread. Thanks for teaching me this stuff!

Agree completely Norse.
And concerning Bryan Hartnell’s (and Cecilia Shepard’s alleged) Zodiac height estimate, those estimates are IMHO totally useless due to that Zodiac was wearing that paperbag-shaped (BH’s statement that it had shape as a black paperbag) hood which IMHO made it totally impossible for them to make a credible estimate of Zodiac’s actual height, due to that the paperbag-shaped hood was probably higher than Zodiacs own head, in any case none knows if it was 2 cm higher or maybe even up to 15 cm higher.

Yes, the hood wouldn’t have made it any easier to judge his height, that’s for sure.

FWIW this is what Bryan says in the interview with Robertson (the relevant parts about height and weight):

BH: And I don’t know how tall he was. Maybe 5-8, or maybe 5-10, 6 feet, somewhere in there.

[Then adds that he’s a poor judge of height.]

(…)

JR: Now was he as heavy as I am?

BH: Well, I can’t say ’cause he wasn’t wearing those type of clothes [not a suit, like R, but sloppy clothes, making it harder to estimate body type] (…) How tall are you?

JR: I’m about five eleven.

BH: [States again that he was sloppily dressed]. He could be about the same. It’s hard to say. He was so sloppily dressed.

Right, BH is kind of all over the place with both height and weight.

And IMO it seems like he also kind of indicated that the killers possible stomach pouch could have come from that he had something in his pouch:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html

"Maybe he had something in his pouch."

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview8.html

"His pants real tight up and his stomach kind of pounched a bit, you know. I don’t know…it’s hard to say"

And I KNOW for sure that I have also read somewhere that, either Bryan Hartnell, or some of the witnesses at the Stine murder, said that the either barrel chested look or stomach pouch Zodiac seem to have could also have been that he was carrying something under his jacket on the frontside, my take is it could be like his gun, Stine’s partly shirt, Stines wallet & keyes, maybe another weapon like a knife?
Additionally, pleated wool pants and that Derby Jacket design also make you look heavier/beefier than you are.
Why do I believe this? well simply because BOTH Zodiac sketches from the Stine murder, without a doubt, show a person with normal/slim face and absolutely NOT an overweight OR beefy persons face.

Look at this guy how slim he is under his jacket, and how much bigger he looks when he close his Derby jacket

Here is a copy of what Fouke wrote about what Zodiac looked like, and note that he mention BOTH 180 lbs and Medium build, as well as 200 lbs heavy, and that IMHO support, as I expressed in my above post, that baggy cothing could add to the possible "200 lbs heavy build" :

WMA 35-45 Yrs about 5’10", 180-200lbs Medium heavy build – barrel chested – Medium complexion- Light colored hair possibly gray in rear (May have been lightning that caused this effect ) Crew cut – Wearing glasses – Dressed in dark blue waist lengths zipper type jacket. Brown wool pants pleeted type baggy in reer (Rust brown) May have been wearing low cut shoes.

The rust brown color of the pleeted baggy pants, IMO was blood.

As far as weight is concerned specifically, I take the footprint as the best indicator of his weight. The footprint sunk down more into the ground when compared to the print of the 210 pound detective. That means Z is AT LEAST 210 pounds. It was not a visual approximation as the witnesses had experienced.

BTW, what a smart idea for gaining insight into a person’s approx weight by looking at the print. That’s some Sherlock Holmes old school work right there.

As far as weight is concerned specifically, I take the footprint as the best indicator of his weight. The footprint sunk down more into the ground when compared to the print of the 210 pound detective. That means Z is AT LEAST 210 pounds. It was not a visual approximation as the witnesses had experienced.

BTW, what a smart idea for gaining insight into a person’s approx weight by looking at the print. That’s some Sherlock Holmes old school work right there.

FYI: Zodiac researachers have been to the Lake Berryessa crime scene and they say that when the weather is dry you don’t leave any footprints no matter how heavy you are, they say it is impossible.

Those researchers opinion is that in order to leave footprints at that kind of soil/ground, the soil/ground has to be wet/moisture/muddy, which in turn mean that the prints the police found back in Sept 1969 was prints from last time it had rained and someone had walked from the road down to the spot where Bryan and Cecilia was that horrible evening and back up to the road where their car probably was parked.

I believe that info is explained better somewhere on this forum, it is not long since I read the information, within the last couple of months I believe.

Napa Detectives had no doubt, the wingwalker prints were from Z. They lead down to the Victims, from behind their car, and back up to Bryan’s car door. It’s pretty cut & dry. They examined these prints on the same day with the same weather conditions etc. Their 210lb Officer did not sink down "nearly as much as Z". Napa is confident that these wingwalker prints belong to Zodiac. I agree with them

As far as weight is concerned specifically, I take the footprint as the best indicator of his weight. The footprint sunk down more into the ground when compared to the print of the 210 pound detective. That means Z is AT LEAST 210 pounds. It was not a visual approximation as the witnesses had experienced.

BTW, what a smart idea for gaining insight into a person’s approx weight by looking at the print. That’s some Sherlock Holmes old school work right there.

FYI: Zodiac researachers have been to the Lake Berryessa crime scene and they say that when the weather is dry you don’t leave any footprints no matter how heavy you are, they say it is impossible.

Those researchers opinion is that in order to leave footprints at that kind of soil/ground, the soil/ground has to be wet/moisture/muddy, which in turn mean that the prints the police found back in Sept 1969 was prints from last time it had rained and someone had walked from the road down to the spot where Bryan and Cecilia was that horrible evening and back up to the road where their car probably was parked.

I believe that info is explained better somewhere on this forum, it is not long since I read the information, within the last couple of months I believe.

Well those are researchers nearly 30 years after the fact. I’ll take the investigators original report over that respectfully. The investigators were there after the crime and would know best what conditions were at play that day. I don’t think they took their job lightly, considering the grisly and brutal scene. JMO. Pretty cool zodiac researchers cared enough to go back and check out the scene though. Additionally the prints were deep and distinct enough for the investigators to know they were Wingwalkers.

Yeah,Z researchers going on a different day, in different conditions, 30 years later, can not be compared to Detectives on the scene the day of the attack

When it comes to weight I guess the (unspoken, usually) issue for many is that we don’t know how heavy Ross would have been in 1969. He was 300lbs several years earlier – and he died of what was labeled extreme obesity.

He could have been even heavier than 300lbs in 1969 – and we have no proof to the contrary.

Then there’s his weight + height. I have no problem with the argument that some people don’t look their weight – that’s a common phenomenon. But Ross was a tall man – and a bulky man (he wouldn’t have passed for anything but pretty heavy regardless of how well he carried his weight).

The question is whether someone as imposing as him could pass for the guy seen by all those witnesses. The mean Z, so to speak, is not a huge guy. He’s a somewhat stocky guy of average height – I think that’s a pretty fair summary.

But we’re not getting anywhere with this. Is it absolutely impossible that a 300lbs, 6-3 guy could be Z? No, I in all honesty I can’t say that. Is it likely? No, I wouldn’t say so. Not based on the available evidence.

And that’s my last word on the subject. It would be very nice if we could get some precise info on Ross’ bodily status in 1969 – and until we do, if we do, I’ll shut up about this weight business.

At any rate, placing him somewhere in definite terms in the crucial time frame is more important than debating his weight, I think. Where was he on Dec 20th, 1968; Jul 4th, 1969; Sept 27th, 1969 – and Oct 11th, 1969?

I also have a feeling that there is a major pro or con in his medical records. But getting one’s hands on those seems very far fetched at this stage. It’s the old conundrum again: LE won’t move on that without a very good reason, I imagine. Perhaps actually placing him within VPD’s jurisdiction within the time frame could do something there. They could get hold of those papers, I think, if they believed it were truly a point to it.

When it comes to weight I guess the (unspoken, usually) issue for many is that we don’t know how heavy Ross would have been in 1969. He was 300lbs several years earlier – and he died of what was labeled extreme obesity.

He could have been even heavier than 300lbs in 1969 – and we have no proof to the contrary.

Then there’s his weight + height. I have no problem with the argument that some people don’t look their weight – that’s a common phenomenon. But Ross was a tall man – and a bulky man (he wouldn’t have passed for anything but pretty heavy regardless of how well he carried his weight).

The question is whether someone as imposing as him could pass for the guy seen by all those witnesses. The mean Z, so to speak, is not a huge guy. He’s a somewhat stocky guy of average height – I think that’s a pretty fair summary.

But we’re not getting anywhere with this. Is it absolutely impossible that a 300lbs, 6-3 guy could be Z? No, I in all honesty I can’t say that. Is it likely? No, I wouldn’t say so. Not based on the available evidence.

And that’s my last word on the subject. It would be very nice if we could get some precise info on Ross’ bodily status in 1969 – and until we do, if we do, I’ll shut up about this weight business.

At any rate, placing him somewhere in definite terms in the crucial time frame is more important than debating his weight, I think. Where was he on Dec 20th, 1968; Jul 4th, 1969; Sept 27th, 1969 – and Oct 11th, 1969?

I also have a feeling that there is a major pro or con in his medical records. But getting one’s hands on those seems very far fetched at this stage. It’s the old conundrum again: LE won’t move on that without a very good reason, I imagine. Perhaps actually placing him within VPD’s jurisdiction within the time frame could do something there. They could get hold of those papers, I think, if they believed it were truly a point to it.

I agree with your points Norse, but again have to point out, 6ft2 not actually 6ft3, and although he weighed 300(as recently as Feb 1968)he didn’t look 300 lbs. And I have to point out again the Napa team having their heaviest 210lb guy not sink "nearly as deep" as Z did. That tells me, that Z,whomever he was weighed a good deal more than the 210 lb Officer.

Trust me, if I got a solid connection for Ross in Vallejo, Napa, SF, both Vallejo & Napa PD’s would dig further, I’ve already been assured of that

It’s all guessing games and speculation really.

Did Ross’ friend see him on a scale? Maybe in high school his friend thought he was 300 lbs. when he was really 220..ya know? We have no photo of him in 1968 when he weighted 300 lbs. and showed what he looked like at the time he would have been Zodiac.

That is HUGE in my opinion. An argument (for lack of a better word) is being made in Ross’ favor regarding his looks TEN YEARS prior to Zodiac.

I’m not saying to dismiss Ross because of this, but what if it turns out he was a very large, chubby man?

I don’t see any reason to think that the Presidio Heights sketch is anything other than a good police sketch. It’s done by a trained artist, drawn from the account of multiple witnesses with good eyes and clear views and has details that are clearly not "improv" on the artist’s part. If the artist didn’t have information to go on we would have ended up with something more like the lake berryessa sketch.

Is it possible Z wasn’t heavyset? It’s not impossible but the totality of the evidence has to lean towards him being a husky but mobile guy.

It’s all guessing games and speculation really.

Did Ross’ friend see him on a scale? Maybe in high school his friend thought he was 300 lbs. when he was really 220..ya know? We have no photo of him in 1968 when he weighted 300 lbs. and showed what he looked like at the time he would have been Zodiac.

That is HUGE in my opinion. An argument (for lack of a better word) is being made in Ross’ favor regarding his looks TEN YEARS prior to Zodiac.

I’m not saying to dismiss Ross because of this, but what if it turns out he was a very large, chubby man?

I would dismiss him if it was established that he didn’t look like the sketch at the time of the murders, certainly.